Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

User avatar
Tyrantos
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:24 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Tyrantos » Thu May 27, 2021 7:48 am

Would be cool if you could add permanent VFX to weapons too.

User avatar
Skibbles
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 1285
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:25 am

Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Skibbles » Thu May 27, 2021 9:33 am

Feedback Part

It may be a bit strong in the 'acknowledging the meta' department but simplication may find a good middle ground by reordering the first page of options like so:

1) Skill Bonus
2) Ability Bonus
3) Saving Throws
4+) Everything Else.

This way the vast majority of crafted items, which to my understanding still remains the very typical 1/1 2/2/2/2/1 with a 5% uni for characters interested in going that extra mile, are both readily accessible to all while still staying in the smaller list to appeal to the old-school method that Party mentioned. For me, having made countless items over the years, a lot of it is pure muscle memory, but I'd be fine with relearning it so long as I didn't need to also bring the mouse into the equation where I didn't need to before.

I wouldn't want a huge 1-15 list because once you get even a little used to the menus it's much more comfortable to use 1-6 because it's all within range of one's left hand where I assume most of us are near constantly hovering to begin with. This seems like a good start on a middle ground between the constant menu navigation versus a big list.

Fun Things

It might be cool to have options for inventory items, that is to say miscellaneous items that have no mechanical value beyond those being roleplayed, that contain FX as a usable property or something.

NWN has so many cool FX that just never get used outside of a DM event or very specific wild mage effects, and it might be cool to see more of these in the hands of creative players. Things like brief character glow, or the ice effect, or a number of other sparkly effects, could be fun to have.

However this is a bit of a big ask, and I can already see something like this going totally wrong as too many start using it for the lulz.

Curses/Maluses

I'd like to see this, but only as a strict penalty without any gain. Having curses provide for further 'slots' would only exacerbate the min/max necessity of character generation.

As an example I wanted to make an anti-psychic helmet once (or rather, pretend to think I could make one), and simply attach like a basic +2 concentration and a penalty to CHA to signify a somewhat oppressive sensation when wearing it. Alas, it was not possible, but it would have been cool and certainly not mechanically powerful by any means.

Weapon FX
Tyrantos wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 7:48 am
Would be cool if you could add permanent VFX to weapons too.
Came here originally to say exactly this. Months ago there was like three dozen super cool weapon FX added and I haven't seen a single one in the live server since. So much so that it leads me to believe they haven't been actually implemented similar to how Maledictum of Worms has yet to be in the module (to my knowledge, according to the wiki anyway).

It's possible this is just something I've somehow missed, but since all the FX are already in the game it would be neat to have them opened up if they're not being used.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

Shrouded Wanderer
Posts: 255
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:33 am

Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Shrouded Wanderer » Thu May 27, 2021 4:26 pm

Skibbles wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 9:33 am
.

Curses/Maluses

I'd like to see this, but only as a strict penalty without any gain. Having curses provide for further 'slots' would only exacerbate the min/max necessity of character generation.

As an example I wanted to make an anti-psychic helmet once (or rather, pretend to think I could make one), and simply attach like a basic +2 concentration and a penalty to CHA to signify a somewhat oppressive sensation when wearing it. Alas, it was not possible, but it would have been cool and certainly not mechanically powerful by any means.


I sort of have the opposite feelings on this.

Having negatives attached to the "Optimal path" or "meta" is actually in my opinion, a good thing.

If you want to have an exceptionally powerful item then you should activate a weakness in some other aspect.

Adding an additional 1 or 2 malus effects would not only engage a weakness but also add an additional money sink (a necessity in a player run economy) in the form of getting the optimal negative trait for the intended item, it also introduces an additional weakness to a character that can be built for by others.

Anomandaris
Posts: 436
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:56 am

Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Anomandaris » Thu May 27, 2021 6:36 pm

Any substantive change to how enchantment works that doesn’t grandfather will result in millions of gold invested and hours and hours of play time vaporized. It would also retroactively affect how one would have otherwise structured their ability scores on char creation which isn’t adjustable through relevel.

Whatever the changes are to gear, I hope the overhaul is QoL and cool factor driven, not balance related. I also caution against anything that promotes greater power creep. Spells per day that are hard to access through scrolls due to lore req, higher ability score bonuses to prevent need for temp wards etc.

User avatar
Skibbles
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 1285
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:25 am

Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Skibbles » Fri May 28, 2021 3:42 am

Shrouded Wanderer wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 4:26 pm
Skibbles wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 9:33 am
.

Curses/Maluses

I'd like to see this, but only as a strict penalty without any gain. Having curses provide for further 'slots' would only exacerbate the min/max necessity of character generation.

As an example I wanted to make an anti-psychic helmet once (or rather, pretend to think I could make one), and simply attach like a basic +2 concentration and a penalty to CHA to signify a somewhat oppressive sensation when wearing it. Alas, it was not possible, but it would have been cool and certainly not mechanically powerful by any means.


I sort of have the opposite feelings on this.

Having negatives attached to the "Optimal path" or "meta" is actually in my opinion, a good thing.

If you want to have an exceptionally powerful item then you should activate a weakness in some other aspect.

Adding an additional 1 or 2 malus effects would not only engage a weakness but also add an additional money sink (a necessity in a player run economy) in the form of getting the optimal negative trait for the intended item, it also introduces an additional weakness to a character that can be built for by others.
I must disagree. The reason people use dump stats is specifically because it does not introduce an actual weakness in the character build.

So, if maluses were implemented that allowed for items to also double down on dump stats, characters will regularly be walking around with 3 CHA/WIS/DEX/Misc and incredibly optimized stats/saves where it matters. Not all characters can benefit from optimizing in this way, so it would heavily skew towards any class and build that could get away with it. Classes with a very high power ceiling would become incredibly overpowered overnight.

Maybe we just have different ideas of what a Malus might be, but I can't imagine many beyond just the inverse of any options we already have.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

Shrouded Wanderer
Posts: 255
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:33 am

Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Shrouded Wanderer » Fri May 28, 2021 5:37 pm

Skibbles wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 3:42 am
Shrouded Wanderer wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 4:26 pm
Skibbles wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 9:33 am
.

Curses/Maluses

I'd like to see this, but only as a strict penalty without any gain. Having curses provide for further 'slots' would only exacerbate the min/max necessity of character generation.

As an example I wanted to make an anti-psychic helmet once (or rather, pretend to think I could make one), and simply attach like a basic +2 concentration and a penalty to CHA to signify a somewhat oppressive sensation when wearing it. Alas, it was not possible, but it would have been cool and certainly not mechanically powerful by any means.


I sort of have the opposite feelings on this.

Having negatives attached to the "Optimal path" or "meta" is actually in my opinion, a good thing.

If you want to have an exceptionally powerful item then you should activate a weakness in some other aspect.

Adding an additional 1 or 2 malus effects would not only engage a weakness but also add an additional money sink (a necessity in a player run economy) in the form of getting the optimal negative trait for the intended item, it also introduces an additional weakness to a character that can be built for by others.
I must disagree. The reason people use dump stats is specifically because it does not introduce an actual weakness in the character build.

So, if maluses were implemented that allowed for items to also double down on dump stats, characters will regularly be walking around with 3 CHA/WIS/DEX/Misc and incredibly optimized stats/saves where it matters. Not all characters can benefit from optimizing in this way, so it would heavily skew towards any class and build that could get away with it. Classes with a very high power ceiling would become incredibly overpowered overnight.

Maybe we just have different ideas of what a Malus might be, but I can't imagine many beyond just the inverse of any options we already have.
Sure sure, dont get me wrong i get that, id say though that the further down you get the worse it is.

We dump charisma because a -1 doesnt mean much. But you start getting into the territory with random maluses that it could cost somewhere between 3 to 400,000 gold just to get that perfect dump stat along with other things. Those types of items would be worth millions of gold in the end just because of the sheer amount of items burned through to get that perfect malus to pos.

I would say also you could balance it around the properties of the item but thats a ton of coding as well. Say if you are doing a str/con item the malus would be weighted to reduce dex or something, idk.

The variability of items like this would outweigh the net negatives in my view.

Anomandaris
Posts: 436
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:56 am

Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Anomandaris » Fri May 28, 2021 5:49 pm

A lot of svirfs have 4 charisma and don't mind at all... this sounds like just more min/maxing potential and RNG gold dumping for uber gear through dweomercrafting. I think it's cool there's an element of that, I like working on dweomer projects over time for hard 5%'s but I don't think we need to ramp up the power level more with respect to what's possible.

Even mundanes have virtually complete access to every type of (essential) ward with standard skill investments and builds, and at a dispel resistance of a lvl 30 caster. You start letting people hit +12 on multiple ability scores through gear with no wards, it's just an undispellable, no windup killing machine.

That's why I think anything else other than maybe some active/daily use stuff is just gonna result in insane power creep.

User avatar
Skibbles
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 1285
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:25 am

Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Skibbles » Sat May 29, 2021 3:14 am

I think Jordenk is quite accurate here. There are no penalties for having a stat at rock bottom for many classes, and classes with a super high power ceiling such as no wind-up Weaponmasters with perfect stats and 40+ saves will be nothing but oppressive.

If characters and factions are even half as rich as Irongron says they are then gating power like this behind a gold sink will plainly not be a sufficient control and promises to be ubiquitously accessible in short order. Given recent attempts to 'even the playing field' even at such a high cost then I do not see a chance that such a change will ever be put through.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

User avatar
Irongron
Server Owner/Creative Lead
Server Owner/Creative Lead
Posts: 4666
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:13 pm

Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Irongron » Sat May 29, 2021 2:34 pm

Thanks for all the feedback on this thread, I'm definitely more informed!

In addition to adding certain low level spells, less suited for endgame gear, but more for flavour, I'm also wondering if 'preset package' slots might work? I can't give exact numbers (or anything close), but this would be making an object with a preset mix of enhancements on a slot, based on world-lore. A Zhentil/Thayvian etc enchantment that might go above the +1 stat and +2 skill, but come with a particular penalty/restriction? Again, anything would have to be run through mechanics implications but may make for more fun/rp process in making items?

Because my issue with the current system isnt that it is poorly balanced, but rather it is both extremely labour intensive/cumbersome, and produces extremely bland gear. It's hard to put much RP effort in when there is such a clear standard as to what gets made and used.

One thing, mentioned above, but I've also had firmly in mind, is not making endless 'swap gear', which is also why we have so few ring, amulet, belt and glove recipes.

Cybren
Posts: 114
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:39 pm

Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Cybren » Sat May 29, 2021 3:40 pm

would there be some way of making an "item template", like, a dialog box that lets you pick all the things you want to put on an item in the basin, then you can apply that template to an item and it tries to enchant them all in sequence?

msheeler
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 367
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:32 pm

Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by msheeler » Sat May 29, 2021 4:00 pm

One thing I would like to see is holdable items added that can then be enchanted. This would extend to all the bardic instruments (the Dove harp should need to be held to be used), but additionally we could have holy symbols that add +1 wisdom +2 leadership and Bless 1x/day or a spellbook that adds +1 int +2 lore and identify 1x/day and stuff.

User avatar
Party in the forest at midnight
Posts: 1384
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:55 pm

Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Sat May 29, 2021 5:03 pm

I hope skills won't be limited. A lot of my equipment has a lot of skills on it, and it would be insane for inventory management to need to have 5 sets of gear with different skills if we are limited to only having 2 skills per piece.

LovelyLightningWitch
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:34 pm

Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by LovelyLightningWitch » Sat May 29, 2021 5:24 pm

msheeler wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 4:00 pm
One thing I would like to see is holdable items added that can then be enchanted. This would extend to all the bardic instruments (the Dove harp should need to be held to be used), but additionally we could have holy symbols that add +1 wisdom +2 leadership and Bless 1x/day or a spellbook that adds +1 int +2 lore and identify 1x/day and stuff.
I would absolutely love holy symbols, even if just a generic star, that I could do blessings with!

User avatar
Eira
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 539
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:59 am
Location: Denmark

Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Eira » Sat May 29, 2021 5:43 pm

No idea who or where it was mentioned curses or debuff items, but wholly in favor of that too, for the rp flavor

I exist to describe the world around us.

Akorae

Keth'ym Evanara - wandering better paths
Veriel Xyrdan - married and happy
Reena Welkins - Dead

Discord: eighra


User avatar
Skibbles
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 1285
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:25 am

Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Skibbles » Sun May 30, 2021 5:34 am

Irongron wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 2:34 pm
I'm also wondering if 'preset package' slots might work?
I'd like to unpack this as it seems neat.

Would this be like a rune slot - only more specific to what it can 'hold' ?

For example one finds or crafts a pair of gloves that has a 'skill slot' (or multiple slots) allowing for a 100% chance to rune only a skill bonus onto it?

I think this would be very cool. I can imagine a rebuilding of items such as Gloves of Skill that would come empty, with 4 slots or so, that the character in question can fill with the skills of their choosing. Going further on this item, mirroring the one in game, it could come with one blank ability slot and four blank skill slots - so any gloves of skill made by a character can be tailored to the character in question (so less item juggling!).

If something like this is mechanically feasible it might also make craftable item balancing easier in the future as the desired powers on the item can be more accurately controlled.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

User avatar
Oaks
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:43 am

Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Oaks » Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:23 pm

What about giving people the option to add Only Usable By (alignment/race/class) to their items at marginal risk, but higher cost?

+further personalization
+have the choice if you don’t want to potentially sell items your enemies could use against you (unless they invested in UMD)

I think it could add some flavour.
The old that is strong does not wither
Deep roots are not reached by the frost

User avatar
garrbear758
Posts: 1521
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:20 am

Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by garrbear758 » Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:21 pm

Okay I'm way later than I planned to be on this but here we go. Please note, these are my thoughts purely as a player, and I am on a break from dev work.

I will refer to dweomercraft as enchanting for my personal sanity from here on.

Itemization on Arelith sucks. Enchanting gear involves a skinner boxesque lottery system that rewards people with gold and absurd amounts of free time. Cool loot items are rarely viable with a few boring exceptions (because rings of hiding are soooo much fun) that you risk destroying anyways. There is technically no ceiling (except your sanity), and the floor of viablity is relatively high. The conversation menu is also a pain to navigate literally 100s of times per character. I feel like it's a little too entrenched to just scrap the whole thing, but right now what we are working with is outdated and just awful to use.

So, beyond that terrible terrible RNG system, we also have RNG grinding hell with runes, and absurd parity between builds which require 2 stats and builds which require 4. The first can be solved by lowering the amount of RNG in the system. The second can be solved by changing how gearing fundamentally works. I'm going to focus on the second because this is already going to be an essay that people will probably get bored of halfway through anyways.

Stats:

Currently, basic gearing/buffing involves getting +7 to 2-4 stats depending on build, then using those 2-4 zoo pots/wands/spells, along with barkskin and shield (because it's unreasonable to use anything besides the headband of protection on most builds, which is a whole separate issue I don't even want to get into yet). Regardless of if you're a basic fighter, or some absurd 4 stat swashbuckler/assassin/bg combination, you follow this general formula. The latter build is going to be a much stronger build, and it suffers little beyond testing your personal sanity and patience to achieve this. This means that the more patient / willing to grind / free time having players will be able to play stronger builds than those with little free time.

The way to achieve parity here can be accomplished via dispels and reworking enchanting. I haven't crunched exact numbers here, but ideally:

A 2 stat build can reasonably gear +12 to those 2 stats, along with a +4 deflection item and a +4 natural item.
A 3 stat build can reasonably gear + 12 to 1 stat, +8 to the other 2, and either +4 deflection OR +4 natural (or mix and match as desired)
A 4 stat build can only fit +8 to their 4 stats, and will be stuck to using 4 zoo spells, along with barkskin and shield pots for AC.
Saves should more or less work as they currently do.

This of course should also call for a slight buff to dispels to compensate.

Skills:

Our skill system currently involves throwing as many +2 skills on as many pieces of gear as we can. This is also tedious and a bit absurd. I would suggest a similarly scaling system to above, where:

If only caring about 1 skill, you can get it to +16.
If you want 2, you can get them to +12.
3 skills: +10
4 skills: +8.
(I'm completely winging these numbers here and they can be wherever they need to be. I'm focusing more on the core concept here not balancing it)

Implementation

There are a lot of ways to do this, but instead of having a ton of tiny bonuses on every item, it'd be way less tedious and insanity inducing to have bigger bonuses tied to a few items, so:

Tailored good (gloves belt boots etc.) will have stat boosts.
Rings will have skills.
Helmet will be deflection or more stats
Amulet will be natural or more stats.

So for a 2 stat build with 3 skills:

+4 strength/con cloak
+4 strength/con belt
+4 strength/con gloves
+4 unisave +1 ac boots
Armor will have no extra stats besides AC/DI but we can add some cool casts/day stuff there.
Helmet of +4 deflection
Amulet of +4 natural armor
Ring with +10 discipline, +5 lore
Ring with +10 spellcraft, +5 lore

As far as menu navigation, this would be a total of 15 selections, where for our current system:
+2 skill +2 skill +2 skill +1 stat +1 stat +1 unisave = 7 selections for 1 item

Again, these are my thoughts as a player and are not in any way a development idea or plan. Additionally, I didn't make considerations for balance when coming up with any of these numbers they are just being used as examples for the core concept.
You've done it [Garrbear], you've kicked the winemom nest. -Redacted

Spriggan Bride
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:28 pm
Location: Urdlen's Wake

Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Spriggan Bride » Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:45 pm

The dark side of balance is sameness. We're all pushed to the same builds and we gear them like everyone else with that build. I guess that's inherent to the game but it feels more and more so to me.

If enchantment system was revamped I would hope there was a way for characters to make quirkier items that aren't just about optimizing stats. Being able to add spell-like effects (curated of course, probably with limited charges) to clothing items for example. It's just a thought but I feel there's missed opportunity to make creative props.

Nidea Lynn
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:19 pm

Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Nidea Lynn » Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:37 pm

I appreciate garrbear758's contribution and think it's a reasonable solution to both simplify the process and ensure that the skills to be modified are done so meaningfully.

In my own experience, I love items that change, alter, or expand my character's capabilities. I would celebrate immensely if we could craft additional feats onto equipment. Of course, due to the potential power increase, an additional resource/quest token/skill level in crafting may be required, yet seeing +1 dex +1 healing on an item is far less compelling than seeing "point blank" feat on a bow for example.
Marle VVLL [Episodic Character]
Nidea Lynn [Active]
Synnafay Ssambra [Paused]

Post Reply