Item balance: Armor of Immolation

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Talgar
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Item balance: Armor of Immolation

Post by Talgar » Fri May 28, 2021 5:44 pm

Requesting a review of this items balance please.

i have made a ton of characters with this item and almost every time it grants a unfair edge when used, it either needs a Use per day, or a Flat Cool Down timer.

the most notable use is anything with high EDR, or high HP, or anything that can just with stand dps that wont one turn you.

all i do is sit with 600-900 hp and keep up the fire shield due to it being unlimited and with not a cooldown, then i just slam healing kits/potions/wands/ etc.

it's one thing to have 500 scrolls that's you had to pay for and go find and earn etc. then to just hit one button forever to get around a lot of things.

I've found this tactic to work with even lower hp builds.

I encourage you to explore the possibilities of this item rework and applying a balance to it so it cant just be spammed and use to replace other means of doing the same things.

thank you for your time.

Anomandaris
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Re: Item balance: Armor of Immolation

Post by Anomandaris » Fri May 28, 2021 5:53 pm

From a caster point of view it also conveys a -/10 fire dr stacked with a infi cast 50% resistance to fire/cold, making the wearer almost immune to most fire dmg spells one would use, or at the least close enough (given it's a lot of barbs and high hp chars) that you mind as well not bother.

If ele shield wasn't so spammable (for free) at least they wouldn't get the 50% resis on top of the flat 10 reduction basically in perpetuity. Other items like penumbral or displacer beast cloak have 2/day use as a comparison.

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Re: Item balance: Armor of Immolation

Post by helitron » Fri May 28, 2021 6:04 pm

What's the difference to buying a stack of elemental shield scrolls and spamming these?

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Re: Item balance: Armor of Immolation

Post by LichBait » Fri May 28, 2021 6:38 pm

Items activate at the top of the round. Scrolls activate at the bottom of the round. Miniscule, admittedly. Also one's a continuous gold sink, the other's a one time cost.

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Talgar
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Re: Item balance: Armor of Immolation

Post by Talgar » Fri May 28, 2021 6:45 pm

Stacks of items have real based value under a context for X. meaning X is just a set amount of what your using.

like 2000 potions/scrolls/wands etc.

they are not "unlimited" you had to earn gold, find the products, buy them, have the carry weight to be able to hold them etc.

while all this can happen, the point is even if you have X its not unlimited and you still had to do something for them, even if its just buying a potion for 50g from a vendor and buying 50000 of them. they are not on demand unlimited with no continuing operation.

to put it another way, buy armor 60k-500k, unlimited for life, zero continuing operation's effort to keep items stacked in back packs etc.

if someone cant really work out why this items needs a rebalance, i encourage them to go on PGCC and muck around with builds, you can see why in very short order the problems this armor faces.

p.s and i hope no one stand behide the "oh well the armor cost gold so the shielding is not "free", based on "life" of the armor , use per scroll value( cost value of a scroll etc) vs armor fee to buy/craft. you end up making gold, buy saving it on costs you avoid.

it just needs a Use per day or a Cooldown timer of like 2 min's.

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Re: Item balance: Armor of Immolation

Post by Drowboy » Fri May 28, 2021 6:57 pm

This armor was 100% announced as having a cooldown when it went in. It not having a cooldown is a bug that people have been abusing for a surprisingly long time.
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Re: Item balance: Armor of Immolation

Post by Duchess Says » Fri May 28, 2021 7:04 pm

It's not "abuse". The armor works the way it works and that's how players will use it. Expecting anyone to remember what was announced years ago (or expecting them to have seen something like that in the first place) is not realistic.

If it was never meant to be unlimited uses it needs to be fixed or the item removed entirely. Until then players will assume it's working as intended.

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Re: Item balance: Armor of Immolation

Post by Good Character » Fri May 28, 2021 7:06 pm

I don't think it had a cooldown mentioned upon its release. Nonetheless, I agree the shield is silly inside of the Heal pot meta.

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Re: Item balance: Armor of Immolation

Post by Inordinate » Fri May 28, 2021 7:33 pm

This is the forum post referencing a 'hotfix' to address it being unlimited by (at this moment) a standard player. They may have been a dev at some point but I don't have experience from back then to say otherwise.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=13979&hilit=Armor+ ... on#p116390

Clearly not actually addressed since.

Another reference for when the wiki was updated two years ago: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=22877&p=191728&hil ... on#p191733

With the amount of input the devs get on things I can imagine something as small as this got overlooked all this time but without them saying otherwise no one can say one way or the other.
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Re: Item balance: Armor of Immolation

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri May 28, 2021 7:55 pm

Cortex was a dev.

But is this ele shield at 100% uptime really that broken? This armor doesnt impress me outside of that and needing to reach 22 26 dex to have a pretty standard AC for the item slot is a legit downside. Dont think anyone would use it if it was CD based and I dont think it breaks the game that it isnt.
Last edited by AstralUniverse on Sat May 29, 2021 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Item balance: Armor of Immolation

Post by Good Character » Fri May 28, 2021 8:54 pm

Cortex was the dev who added the armor, so undoubtedly this was a bug.

As far as the armor goes, it's a must have on a dex/div build. Bonus CHA for divine shield, chunky armor AC, extra discipline, and it has a chunky fire DR. Slap on elemental shield, and now you're making it pointless to use Fire-based spells.

I assume you can also still rune it, but don't quote me on that.

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Re: Item balance: Armor of Immolation

Post by helitron » Fri May 28, 2021 9:08 pm

can't be runed as it is ... and discipline bonus was toned down recently

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Re: Item balance: Armor of Immolation

Post by Bunnysmack » Fri May 28, 2021 9:11 pm

helitron wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 6:04 pm
What's the difference to buying a stack of elemental shield scrolls and spamming these?
Ele shield scrolls should have a CL of only 7. 1d6+7 damage, and the effect only lasts 7 rounds.

Armor of immolation is CL12. That ends up creating a sizeable increase in both damage and uptime, while also pushing the backlash well past the threshold where a defense essence can absorb most of the damage.
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Re: Item balance: Armor of Immolation

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat May 29, 2021 2:25 am

Good Character wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 8:54 pm
Cortex was the dev who added the armor, so undoubtedly this was a bug.

As far as the armor goes, it's a must have on a dex/div build. Bonus CHA for divine shield, chunky armor AC, extra discipline, and it has a chunky fire DR. Slap on elemental shield, and now you're making it pointless to use Fire-based spells.

I assume you can also still rune it, but don't quote me on that.
Maybe it was a bug but was then considered balanced enough as is. It's not like no one knew it's infi-use for the last 3 years.

If you're using this armor on a dex based build you're losing a lot of AC on a build that scales much better with AC than with damage shield. Your statement is very incorrect for this reason. The 50% fire/cold immunity is nice but it's still light years away from weighting as much as the 5-6 ac you lose by not going for one of the cloth armor +3 options, especially on a divine dexer. You're only not losing much ac if you are heavy rogue build, and then you should most definitely use Armor of the Wilds anyhow.
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Talgar
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Re: Item balance: Armor of Immolation

Post by Talgar » Sat May 29, 2021 2:34 am

(see below)
Last edited by Talgar on Sat May 29, 2021 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

Talgar
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Re: Item balance: Armor of Immolation

Post by Talgar » Sat May 29, 2021 2:34 am

Thank you Dev's/staff for reading and reviewing my posted information, if you have any questions on the topic or reasons i listed feel free to send me a private message and i will get back to you.

I look forward with hope that this can be brought in to better balancing guide lines.

Thank you for all your time and effort into the Arelith server.

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Re: Item balance: Armor of Immolation

Post by Good Character » Sat May 29, 2021 2:36 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 2:25 am
Maybe it was a bug but was then considered balanced enough as is. It's not like no one knew it's infi-use for the last 3 years.

If you're using this armor on a dex based build you're losing a lot of AC on a build that scales much better with AC than with damage shield. Your statement is very incorrect for this reason. The 50% fire/cold immunity is nice but it's still light years away from weighting as much as the 5-6 ac you lose by not going for one of the cloth armor +3 options, especially on a divine dexer.
The most DEX you'll be getting with the +12 cap is usually 38. Comes out to a +14 modifier. Most div/dex builds I know are 26 rogue/4 bg or pally. You'll lose no AC with the Lightly Armored feat that rogues get; calculation is 26/4 = 6 modifier maintained atop the 8 DEX modifier padded armor lets you keep. The armor is arguably far better than any cloth gear; you keep your DEX modifier, you get +4 armor AC, and the padded armor gives you an extra 1 AC.

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Re: Item balance: Armor of Immolation

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat May 29, 2021 2:41 am

Good Character wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 2:36 am
AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 2:25 am
Maybe it was a bug but was then considered balanced enough as is. It's not like no one knew it's infi-use for the last 3 years.

If you're using this armor on a dex based build you're losing a lot of AC on a build that scales much better with AC than with damage shield. Your statement is very incorrect for this reason. The 50% fire/cold immunity is nice but it's still light years away from weighting as much as the 5-6 ac you lose by not going for one of the cloth armor +3 options, especially on a divine dexer.
The most DEX you'll be getting with the +12 cap is usually 38. Comes out to a +14 modifier. Most div/dex builds I know are 26 rogue/4 bg or pally. You'll lose no AC with the Lightly Armored feat that rogues get; calculation is 26/4 = 6 modifier maintained atop the 8 DEX modifier padded armor lets you keep. The armor is arguably far better than any cloth gear; you keep your DEX modifier, you get +4 armor AC, and the padded armor gives you an extra 1 AC.
I actually play this build and again, you're very incorrect. Specifically on a rogue, sure, there's no real ac loss as I said, but you've giving up 5 move/hide from armor of the wilds and you are wasting 6 seconds in pvp to use elemental shield on a stealther build with 70+ ac and epic dodge. This is terrible tactic. Cheers.
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Talgar
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Re: Item balance: Armor of Immolation

Post by Talgar » Sat May 29, 2021 2:45 am

as far as people listing "builds" i respect this and enjoy being open minded.

however dont lose focus and try to single target a "Type X" build, a great many builds can benefit greatly from its unlimited use.
for the sake of the server i wont be listing those options publicly.

But as it has been uncovered it does give a unfair edge in many areas of game play vs other items. Anyone who thinks shortly about it can see where it is super helpful in those areas.

i invite everyone to be open minded and go to the PGCC and openly test.

Thanks everyone and have a great weekend.

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Re: Item balance: Armor of Immolation

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat May 29, 2021 2:54 am

Talgar wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 2:45 am
however dont lose focus and try to single target a "Type X" build, a great many builds can benefit greatly from its unlimited use.
Some builds benefit from it. And many builds can find it useful sometimes in pve, I suppose. No one denying that. But the fact it's unlimited use isnt really breaking the game in any way you or anyone suggested so far.

It is okay on warlocks because they have 0 ac anyway and can gear pretty much whatever stats they want, so they can reach the dex cap and enjoy extra damage output when they take hits. And even on them, I'd consider it a worse option than Elven Chains because of the %DI on Elven Chains which syncs perfectly with the conlock's kit.

It's pretty bad stat-wise on anything that likes AC and stats, like melee combatants, dex or str. Because if you're dex based, I've just explained above why it's bad for you. If you're str based ,I've explained further above - you end up with average ac for the item slot and you've invested 26 dex for it.

I'm genuinely curious on what builds it is game breaking that it's infinite use.
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


Talgar
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Re: Item balance: Armor of Immolation

Post by Talgar » Sat May 29, 2021 2:58 am

i'll be willing to share that with staff/dev's.

and everyone is able to post there own views.

thanks for posting.


i've stated good info's as to why it needs to be balanced i'm sure dev's will how ever take a new look and use their own minds and points of views.

thats all i'm asking.

as far as players questioning it, we can agree to disagree and not become forum warriors.

thanks everyone

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Re: Item balance: Armor of Immolation

Post by Skarain » Sat May 29, 2021 5:19 am

I have enjoyed using the item in PvE, in places that have a lot of fire or cold. It is cool being able to prepare for the environment or encounter and be rewarded.

If any adjustments are made... well, the CL was said to be 13. It lasts 1 min 18 seconds. An 40sec - 1min cooldown but unlimited uses preserves the item while allows counterplay via breach. It migth make using the item more clunky, as I recall refreshing the barrier whenever I had spare time, as you may have more important things to do in combat.

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Re: Item balance: Armor of Immolation

Post by Kenji » Sat May 29, 2021 6:30 am

Good Character wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 8:54 pm
I assume you can also still rune it, but don't quote me on that.
One can apply 5/- defensive fire essence to overwrite the 10/- fire DR one to make the armor qualify for a T3 rune. (though one could argue 10/- DR is better than +1 uni unless that specific 20/- fire DR helmet drop is involved)

I digress, the current team is already making minor balance/mechanics passes on items now that we have new properties to play with - thanks to Mord's updates - and armor of immo is one of them. As for the actual implementation of any change will be Soon™

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Re: Item balance: Armor of Immolation

Post by Edens_Fall » Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:47 pm

I would argue the armor Is fine as it is. I have it on a barbarian PC and the only reason to use the armor is for this very effect. The main reason being the armors ability is the only defense against EDodge monks whom I can't even touch with a 51AB and rage.

You spoke of there needing to be a gold sink, well even with EDR and the armor I still take damage and have to down heal pots at 3000 gp each. There's the gold sink. Heal pots, not scrolls.

In short I don't seen a need to nerf the armor unless we want to nerf Edodge monks to lvl the field.

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Re: Item balance: Armor of Immolation

Post by RedGiant » Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:42 pm

I would submit that this is easily overcome with any number of tactics, from ranged weapons to spells to breaches to shape changing to being certain races to even items in the game which can be slapped on quickly, some of which grant up to -20 fire resistance (which you can't test on the PGCC since the full loot table aren't available).

As others have said here, this is not the greatest tactic, it costs you action economy, and is easily overcome by a savvy player.
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