Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

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Aelryn Bloodmoon
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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:50 pm

preggy wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:42 am
As has already been explained, there are elements to the Protect Domain power that do not work as intended and have no real means by which to counter them. Yes, you can build an entire character and build around what is basically "Greater Sanctuary 2.0" -- but you then have to remember that greater sanctuary was very intentionally nerfed for a reason.
That reason was also because True Seeing was nerfed. Not to beat a dead horse or anything, but...
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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by Hazard » Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:49 pm

I always assumed using protection domain sanctuary to get around the gsanc nerfs was a bit of an exploit at worst or at least an oversight that was going to be corrected.

I think this is a good way to bring it closer to being balanced.

The domain is no where near useless, it's still very OP and the top pick.
If I wanted the best pvp domain I'd be picking it every time, still.

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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by Sombricimos » Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:18 pm

If you built a cleric investing in CHA despite them being using Wisdom for their spellbook and CHA for merely a little cookie given by a domain fully knowing the bugs/exploit and it gets nerfed, just be mad at yourself for thinking you could get away with it forever

EDIT : Apologies to all my fellow clerics, I had never looked up a cleric build before. Indeed, most of them appear to go for CHA instead of WIS, despite WIS being what control spell slots and all. Go figure.
So I'll rephrase :
If you expected to get away with exploiting a bug forever, just be mad at yourself.
Last edited by Sombricimos on Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by RedGiant » Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:31 am

I am late to this discussion but cleric in general has now received what I would call the wizard treatment on Arelith. Most of their traditionally good spells are nerfed into unrecognizable versions, breachable spells have multiplied, and DC spells are generally useless. Hence the reliance on summons and other weirdness.

As I have posted elsewhere, gsanc is breachable and thanks to LoreMaster and the loot table, MKs are back on the menu...not to mention other area breaching options like natures balance (which also comes use/day on one of the best weapons in the game!), etc. As I posted before, since gsanc is actually at the top of the cleric breach list, there is actually a lack of counterplay between the possibility of endless area breaching and a spell on a pretty severe timer.

I often think that despite the appeals to logic and balance, we as a community often fail to see all the pieces on the board and all the different tools available to players.

In short, I think gsanc is somewhat unjustly feared, especially against someone who is prepared as I have described above. In these cases, you probably are just wasting an action. Or, am I the only on who meets competent PvPers on my cleric?
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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by Inordinate » Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:37 am

RedGiant wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:31 am
I am late to this discussion but cleric in general has now received what I would call the wizard treatment on Arelith. Most of their traditionally good spells are nerfed into unrecognizable versions, breachable spells have multiplied, and DC spells are generally useless. Hence the reliance on summons and other weirdness.

As I have posted elsewhere, gsanc is breachable and thanks to LoreMaster and the loot table, MKs are back on the menu...not to mention other area breaching options like natures balance (which also comes use/day on one of the best weapons in the game!), etc. As I posted before, since gsanc is actually at the top of the cleric breach list, there is actually a lack of counterplay between the possibility of endless area breaching and a spell on a pretty severe timer.

I often think that despite the appeals to logic and balance, we as a community often fail to see all the pieces on the board and all the different tools available to players.

In short, I think gsanc is somewhat unjustly feared, especially against someone who is prepared as I have described above. In these cases, you probably are just wasting an action. Or, am I the only on who meets competent PvPers on my cleric?
This entire thread is discussing the mechanically different "Divine protection" domain power. No one is really arguing that (Greater) Sanctuary is overpowered because it has/had counters.
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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by RedGiant » Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:49 am

Yes, but there are those who argue here that this makes protection cleric just like regular clerics, with perhaps another cast of gsanc. This is demonstrably not true as Kenji pointed out. However, gsanc itself, which is the point I am making, is almost nerfed into oblivion and has hard repeatable counters that abound in game.

Cleric, for all the reasons I state above, is not in the best place right now. Kenji himself ran down the list of practically proscribed things you must do to make any cleric viable on Arelith, though Im not sure if that was his intent (Edk, Gate, Mummy Dust, Harm, Dispels, etc.).

Why you see so many protection healers is this was one of the few ways to excel at the weird Arelith induced meta, which I detailed already.

We can say the change was needed for balance, but was each step also necessary that got us here? From basin saves to spell function changes, there are strong reasons why this meta emerged. But I think the problem may be wider than just taking protection clerics down a notch, because clerics...of any kind...have almost dropped off the recommended build list, besides in their meme configurations.
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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by Spriggan Bride » Sat Jun 05, 2021 6:12 am

Sombricimos wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:18 pm
If you built a cleric investing in CHA despite them being using Wisdom for their spellbook and CHA for merely a little cookie given by a domain fully knowing the bugs/exploit and it gets nerfed, just be mad at yourself for thinking you could get away with it forever
Except most clerics take 19 wisdom and put points elsewhere unless they're like, a zen archer or going for max implosion.

And this build is (still) touted on the suggested builds page as particularly good for beginners.

So come on, be nicer. Everyone playing one of these isn't intentionally exploiting. I don't think most players even knew there was an exploit.

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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:02 am

Sombricimos wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:18 pm
If you built a cleric investing in CHA despite them being using Wisdom for their spellbook and CHA for merely a little cookie given by a domain fully knowing the bugs/exploit and it gets nerfed, just be mad at yourself for thinking you could get away with it forever
This isnt very nice to say because the Clerics who invested in CHA were the least abusive. Those are the ones who pretended there's no bug to exploit or didnt even know about it and played the build as it should be played if it were bug free. Those players did NOTHING wrong.

Those who neglect their Divine Protection's DC entirely are the ones (I think) should be reported. This is a reportable exploit. They are also very easy to detect - they 3 have cleric lvls so they use divine protection without using the clerics spellbook.
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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by Diegovog » Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:53 pm

RedGiant wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:49 am
Cleric, for all the reasons I state above, is not in the best place right now. Kenji himself ran down the list of practically proscribed things you must do to make any cleric viable on Arelith, though Im not sure if that was his intent (Edk, Gate, Mummy Dust, Harm, Dispels, etc.).
Complete opposite of this. Clerics have been meta and too strong. You can see it in the last player count through the number of healer path and clerics being played. Not only that, but this very nerf and the harm nerf were absolutely necessary. Still, they are way too strong in a meta that burst isn't sufficient against their mass of heals and WoF. Barb/wm was nerfed and IGMS spam is easily countered nowadays.
Favored Soul and bcleric are super strong atm and I hope with the upcoming strength buffs the excessive use of heals, summon and WoF control can get punished by some builds.

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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by MissEvelyn » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:31 pm

Kenji wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:16 am
Thank you for pointing this out to the public again as I have in my previous posts.
It was just a clarification. Nothing to get snarky about. Unless you're genuinely thanking me, then I apologize for not interpreting text correctly.
Kenji wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:16 am
I understand you're still upset about the change, but before claiming that the build is "[nerfed] to the ground", I'd like to refer you to this post:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=33801&start=25#p265580
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=33801#p265424

As for "sacrificing other strengths in the process", I'd like to refer you to this post:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=33801&start=25#p265551

If you still do not see why your statements are false, please let me know and I will do my best to explain it again in either public or private chats at your choosing using my spare time away from overhauling cleric domains. I'm not patronizing you nor am I being sarcastic. There is a reason why people still misunderstand the change and some are averse to walls of texts.

If your point was to argue about how you disagree with other people's line of logic, then it has digressed beyond the discussion of protection domain change and I urge the following again:
Kenji wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:14 am
... have metacognition over their emotions and be able to look at the changes objectively.
"Nerfed to the ground" is a very vague statement, and I can see how there are a million ways to take that. In the specific case of the Protection Domain, let me clarify what I mean:

Not only was Divine Protection given one nerf, it was given several. The new duration of the ability is fair, as it is now more akin to the other active domain powers.

However, the sharing of cooldown with a spell? That is definitely over the top. No other domain power does that with any spell.
No, scratch even that. Literally no other feature or ability shares a cooldown with a spell. If that isn't an over-the-top nerf, I'm not sure what is.

As for the rest, it's really hard to interpret tone over text, so I'd like to refrain from assuming you were being sarcastic, as difficult as that can be.

But I also understand that we're human. And if we put time, effort, and work into something, it can feel extremely discouraging to have someone walk all over it and just shoot it down in a forum post. I absolutely understand that - and it's not what I - or anyone else - is trying to do here. I'm only providing feedback, and I apologize if my words at times sound heated or disgruntled.


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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by Kenji » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:36 am

The -domain command is there for you all should you feel that the protection domain is no longer the domain choice for your character due to either RP or mechanical reasons.

At this point, discussions regarding the protection domain in this thread are moot. Had you taken the offer a week ago, I would have explained further why the protection domain was hardly nerfed. But, at this point, I'd rather not spend more time explaining something that is about to be obsolete simply because of the changes that are coming.

For those concerned about charisma clerics, I also have a solution in mind. Will it be the perfect solution that makes everyone happy? Likely not. But I'm confident that with the coming changes, charisma clerics will be just as viable as the str, dex, wis, or even con clerics.

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