Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

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TooManyPotatoes
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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by TooManyPotatoes » Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:47 pm

There was certainly an issue that one could open the fight with greater sanctuary (7 round duration), cast protection domain (say a little over 4 minutes duration) when it ran out, then... cast greater sanctuary again because the cooldown had finished.

I've yet to see a PvP last six minutes, which suggests to me that protection domain was essentially granting immunity to pvp once per rest.

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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by Kenji » Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:01 pm

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:01 pm
Someone in the same crowd: "Hey, that guy can make his casting stat his SECONDARY stat and obliterate all his spell DC's for four whole minutes of a high DC sanctuary effect that you can only beat if you throw on some will saving gear. It's toxic, nerf him!"
What are these DC-based spells again? Storm of Vengeance? That’s one... Hmm. Sound lance, that's two! I'm sure I missed a few.

Word of Faith? Wait, that doesn’t count. EDK/Gate/Mummy Dust? No, they don’t count either... Harm? Nope. Dispels? Nah.

Alright, let's then go down the cleric spell list where the DC spells using caster wisdom stat is involved:
Implosion, Undeath to Death, Sunbeam, Firestorm, Blade Barrier, Slay Living, Earthquake...

Does anybody actually use these outside of PvE? Maybe Implosion, but that would be another build that's not entirely relevant to protection domain.

Last but not least, let's look at the DC. 19 wisdom vs 26 wisdom, that's 4 wisdom modifier difference. That translates to 20% difference in succeeding/failing the save if applicable. Now, the trade-off is a 20% less effective SoV (if the target forgets to Clarity pot or mind blank) for an almost complete immunity, side-observer but occasionally dropping a healing circle in large scale PvP experience as mentioned by
TooManyPotatoes wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:47 pm
There was certainly an issue that one could open the fight with greater sanctuary (7 round duration), cast protection domain (say a little over 4 minutes duration) when it ran out, then... cast greater sanctuary again because the cooldown had finished.

I've yet to see a PvP last six minutes, which suggests to me that protection domain was essentially granting immunity to pvp once per rest.
Here are also some stuffs that weren't mentioned in the above discussions
  • Protection Domain’s active (Divine Protection)’s DC save isn’t working as intended, using it will almost guarantee safety no matter what. (Same as the level 1 spell, Sacntuary)
  • Divine Protection can’t be interrupted while being cast, unlike G Sanc
  • Divine Protection can't be ground breached, unlike G Sanc
  • Players can still summon with Divine Protection active, unlike G Sanc
Here's what I'm seeing.

Remember when Cavalier got overhauled and some immediately claim not going 10 cav means the cav build won't be viable? They didn’t fully understand the change nor were they interested in learning the changes, and so they came to hasty conclusions and assumptions - at the detriment of their own enjoyment and others by being vocal about something they did not fully understand.

We’re seeing the same behaviors here with protection domain change.
Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:01 pm
I've always appreciated the work that goes into this server, but a big draw of Arelith for me, in the beginning, was the fact that it was vanilla- not because it meant I didn't have to download haks- that's easy. But because 'vanilla' meant to me that the game was still somewhat close to its base iteration
Let's also try and remember what was on vanilla NWN: Rangers and barbarians sucked, monk was OP as heck, g sanc that lasted forever, inconsistent HiPS mechanics and counterplays, the more recent Sanctuary abuse all over the place, and the list goes on.

Without these changes, Arelith will stagnate. Few don't realize how important certain balance changes are. One of the biggest draws of Arelith for me was how the developers of Arelith were able to expand and innovate the server without overly relying on Haks, that took some ingenuity, creativity, and just raw talent to do so (no, I'm not talking about myself). Now, with hak being readily available, Arelith propelled even further.

Would you like me to say "If you like vanilla so much, why don't you go play on those vanilla servers?" when it's plenty obvious that those servers are empty compared to Arelith for a reason.

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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by Diegovog » Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:27 pm

It's really important that we get broken builds more balanced. That's it, period. I had a healer path protection domain 52 DC and it was absolutely broken. Being able to use abjuration ward while at it, summon EDK, have summons attack freely while you conjure waves of them all while being impervious for 5mins was way too much, I'm glad it was nerfed.

I would suggest a little increase in the duration, though. Right now the only advantages of protection domain over gsanc is not being dispelled by mord and that you can summon EDK.

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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by godhand- » Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:02 pm

TooManyPotatoes wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:47 pm
There was certainly an issue that one could open the fight with greater sanctuary (7 round duration), cast protection domain (say a little over 4 minutes duration) when it ran out, then... cast greater sanctuary again because the cooldown had finished.
the will save triggered for all in range even if the caster was in greater sanc.
Kenji wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:01 pm
[*]Protection Domain’s active (Divine Protection)’s DC save isn’t working as intended, using it will almost guarantee safety no matter what. (Same as the level 1 spell, Sacntuary)
Admittedly i havent played a healpath in ~6months - has something changed? Please elucidate on this question and i will happily stand corrected. I ask as i have played 3xL30 prot Healpaths and i've always seen those rolls getting shown in the combat log by all in range whenever i used Prot Domain Sanc.

Which leads me to:
Diegovog wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:27 pm
I had a healer path protection domain 52 DC and it was absolutely broken.
The 52 DC seems scary, until you cross other clerics. Protection domain up against another clerics will get completely torn apart.
Clerics and their super high Will saves almost always make the save - lets not forget spellcraft counts towards the save.
battlecleric vs support cleric - i wonder who wins.... (this is a rhetorical question, the battlecleric does.)
This sentiment is NOT my attempt to say Prot domain is not strong. I'm not denying that at all, It certainly was in a strong place.... I wish to demonstrate there are the right tools for the right job.


My biggest concern with attempts to "balance" this complicated game of rock paper scissors we play, it appears, to me at least, as though everyone wants scissors to be balanced against rock and have counterplay available to it.
Cortex wrote: Addendum, the immediate above post by godhand is wrong in about every aspect, as were most of his other posts.

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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by Zanithar » Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:07 am

So, the argument is that Protection Feat Sanctuary is balanced because sanctuary is currently bugged.

Honestly I did not anticipate it remaining bugged, that is actually fair ... as long as it remains bugged it is a solid feat.

The problem I see however is that it is unlikely to remained “bugged”.

How many people are now going to play things like:
27 Hexblade / 3 Cleric with Healing/Protection Domains.

Or

4 Cleric (Healing/Protection) / 10 Knight / 16 CoT

I know I am.

Now deep melee builds are going to net 14 rounds complete invulnerability with empowered healing potions, divine wands and divine might /shield.

So, if we are discussing this from understanding not just the mechanics of the game, but the exploits within those mechanics, I am uncertain how swapping the 30 Sanc Healer OP caster build complete with built in heavy cost ... for massively buffing divine melee builds helps the balance. More importantly, what will be the impact of the next fix to correct this on the “bugged” sanctuary and what will be the impact to the current sanc healer meta? This is why I am really surprised that the sanctuary bug is being used as part of the balance approach.

Or, am I missing something here?

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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by Kenji » Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:14 am

Zanithar wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:07 am
27 Hexblade / 3 Cleric with Healing/Protection Domains.

Or

4 Cleric (Healing/Protection) / 10 Knight / 16 CoT
The option to build melee and dip into protection domain cleric that way has always been there, or am I missing something, as well?

Also, balance is never 100% and certainly won't be achieved in 1 stroke. It'll be pure hubris of me or anyone to claim that complete balance is achieved from just this change alone. The argument here is to implore people to have metacognition over their emotions and be able to look at the changes objectively.
Last edited by Kenji on Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by Tarkus the dog » Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:22 am

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:35 pm
Tarkus the dog wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:45 am

....
If you're curious about the details, I can explain how exactly that fight would go down. Ask me anything.
Your post left me wanting more but also left me unsure on what to ask to get it. I give you an A on the points being made within, D- on execution.
I'll try to keep it short since my initial message got really TL;DR:

The enemy team needs burst damage, or they just straight out lose. They also need to know to counter WoF with remove blindness QUICKLY enough ( SR helps a lot here, if you don't have SR however it HURTS ). While that is going on, the DPS is probably killing someone. It doesn't matter who, his AB is 43-44 which is enough to kill most builds that are trying to deal with being constantly blinded ( or really anyone not sitting at 60+ ac ). The moment you start losing numbers, you've lost the fight. The protection domain cleric can also drop an EDK, mummy dust or Gate. These can take a lot of heat off of the DPS, while both of them are being healed for 300 every, let's say roughly 4-5 seconds, ( 3 technically, but lag and deciding between spells included make it more ) WHEN the DPS starts taking damage.

if that is necessary, otherwise just spamming sanctuary over and over on the DPS should also do the trick ( No, not the recent bug that is being fixed. Even if you pass the check, sanctuary domain would cancel your action queue. So we're talking a DPS that's actively HiPSing and hitting someone in the face at the same time ). Getting morded? Not an issue, apply another SR. Curse songed? Again, the cleric has your back. All the DPS has to do is CLICK and manouver well ( Pick out the mages/bards/other clerics first ) Once bodies start showing, the fight is essentially over. 2v4 is a child's play for the duo. ONE high level paladin might have a chance of changing outcome of this fight ( though mind you, he'll need to buff and all, and you DON'T have a lot of time ) because of the holy sword.

And sure, there ARE counters to this. But you need to know them and to expect them coming. Most people won't even realize there's a protection domain cleric in the vicinity. It's not fun for the enemy team whatsoever. It's probably fun for the DPS/Cleric combo for the first minute ( the fight is pretty much decided then ), but after that it just becomes a wipe. Again, NOT fun, do NOT recommend. Just typing about this and reminding myself how broken it was makes me irritated.

The craziest thing is that It's still busted as hell, again, ONE minute decides how this fight goes for the cleric/DPS duo -- With the nerfs, you have two to make the best out of it. Thinking about it, it all boils down back to this:
garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:07 pm
Protection healer is still extremely good (down from brokenly op) and quite bluntly we can’t balance the server around people who aren’t playing it well.
...and I couldn't agree more.

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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by Kenji » Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:46 am

godhand- wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:02 pm
Kenji wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:01 pm
[*]Protection Domain’s active (Divine Protection)’s DC save isn’t working as intended, using it will almost guarantee safety no matter what. (Same as the level 1 spell, Sacntuary)
Admittedly i havent played a healpath in ~6months - has something changed? Please elucidate on this question and i will happily stand corrected. I ask as i have played 3xL30 prot Healpaths and i've always seen those rolls getting shown in the combat log by all in range whenever i used Prot Domain Sanc.
Here is what is supposed to happen:
  1. Cleric casts Sanctuary or Divine Protection
  2. Enemies within LoS need to make Will Save vs DC
  3. Enemies that don't make the Will Save will not be able to detect the cleric
  4. Enemies that somehow make the absurd Will Save (likely CoT, Div SS, BCleric, any form of Div/Hex) will be able to see and target the cleric.
What actually happens at 4:
Enemies that somehow make the absurd Will Save will treat the cleric as if it is now invisible, See Invisibility/True Sight will not reveal said cleric. However, Cleric can still be detected by wandering into melee range as one would with any invisible targets.

The above is the same for Sanctuary, as well, but Sanctuary is on the lower end of the breach list.

Edit: These are deemed exploits. Sanctuary has a low enough DC and yet still functions far beyond its supposed capabilities as a level 1 spell, hence it is removed temporarily until a solution is found. The Protection Domain is not any better off and will be subjected to more changes.

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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by godhand- » Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:08 am

Kenji wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:46 am
....
Thankyou. I now understand why Garrbears post was not hyperbole and fully support the change, now that i understand the implications behind it.

You mention further changes to Prot domain sanc.... Would the simple fix be making it an action based Greater Sanc that runs on CHA mod/rounds for duration?
This is counterable with mords (as per GSanc) and should alleviate previously existing exploits?


Edited because i can't word good.
Cortex wrote: Addendum, the immediate above post by godhand is wrong in about every aspect, as were most of his other posts.

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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:07 am

Kenji wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:14 am
Zanithar wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:07 am
27 Hexblade / 3 Cleric with Healing/Protection Domains.

Or

4 Cleric (Healing/Protection) / 10 Knight / 16 CoT
The option to build melee and dip into protection domain cleric that way has always been there, or am I missing something, as well?
Old Divine Protection* would last 1 round per Charisma modifier + Cleric Level. The new one has a fixed 5 rounds + Charisma modifier, which makes it a slightly more attractive choice for level 3 Cleric dips.

* Divine Protection is the actual name of the ability granted by Protection Domain.


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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by Glowing Mushroom » Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:49 am

I'm not too keen on Clerics, but big changes like this always surprise me a bit. Divine Protection nerf, Harm nerf from the other week, and other things like HIPS nerfs. They are implemented because of apparent exploits that are occurring or they are being used too frequently/are too powerful. I play Arelith regularly, but with regards to the these things that I've mentioned, I have never actually heard of these exploits/balance issues until after these changes come out.

Are these types of issues really that rampant and prominent across the server? Are they really being abused that much and that often? Maybe I'm just ignorant to it all occurring, but I never hear about this stuff until after it gets nerfed. It makes me wonder about how often it was actually being done.
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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by Nitro » Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:12 am

Glowing Mushroom wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:49 am
I'm not too keen on Clerics, but big changes like this always surprise me a bit. Divine Protection nerf, Harm nerf from the other week, and other things like HIPS nerfs. They are implemented because of apparent exploits that are occurring or they are being used too frequently/are too powerful. I play Arelith regularly, but with regards to the these things that I've mentioned, I have never actually heard of these exploits/balance issues until after these changes come out.

Are these types of issues really that rampant and prominent across the server? Are they really being abused that much and that often?
There's thousands of players on the server over the course of any given day. At most you might interact with a bakers dozen. And of them, do you really think those who knowingly abuse an exploit are very fond of telling people about it? Not to mention that most people just don't realize what is happening, or that something is an exploit due to lacking mechanical knowledge.
Maybe I'm just ignorant to it all occurring, but I never hear about this stuff until after it gets nerfed. It makes me wonder about how often it was actually being done.
An accurate analogy to this would be living in a walled, gated community in a war torn land and commenting about how because you never see or hear any gunshots, nor do any of your neighbors, surely there must not be that much violence in the country.

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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by preggy » Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:33 am

I'd say this is just more evidence that you should not base an entire character build around a single powerful skill, spell, ability, or item. Its when people start to do this that it'll come under scrutiny to how fair it is, how balanced it is, and it will probably get nerfed.

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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:57 am

preggy wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:33 am
I'd say this is just more evidence that you should not base an entire character build around a single powerful skill, spell, ability, or item. Its when people start to do this that it'll come under scrutiny to how fair it is, how balanced it is, and it will probably get nerfed.
But why not? If you sacrifice other strengths in the process, why is it something that has to be punished by nerfing it to the ground?

It seems to me that payoffs like this exist in many builds. Some paths and classes offer a level 28 feature - in order to get that, you sacrifice multiclassing. Should the people who opt for that be nerfed as well, because they "based" their entire build around one class?

I simply fail to understand the reasoning behind this line of logic.


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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by Glowing Mushroom » Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:04 am

Nitro wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:12 am
Glowing Mushroom wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:49 am
I'm not too keen on Clerics, but big changes like this always surprise me a bit. Divine Protection nerf, Harm nerf from the other week, and other things like HIPS nerfs. They are implemented because of apparent exploits that are occurring or they are being used too frequently/are too powerful. I play Arelith regularly, but with regards to the these things that I've mentioned, I have never actually heard of these exploits/balance issues until after these changes come out.

Are these types of issues really that rampant and prominent across the server? Are they really being abused that much and that often?
There's thousands of players on the server over the course of any given day. At most you might interact with a bakers dozen. And of them, do you really think those who knowingly abuse an exploit are very fond of telling people about it? Not to mention that most people just don't realize what is happening, or that something is an exploit due to lacking mechanical knowledge.
Maybe I'm just ignorant to it all occurring, but I never hear about this stuff until after it gets nerfed. It makes me wonder about how often it was actually being done.
An accurate analogy to this would be living in a walled, gated community in a war torn land and commenting about how because you never see or hear any gunshots, nor do any of your neighbors, surely there must not be that much violence in the country.
So is that a yes or a no lol
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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by Curve » Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:05 am

Yes.

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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by Opustus » Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:18 am

As for Protection domain nerf, for the more casual players out there, how about just giving Invisibility as a spell? They still get to hang with the group unseen by most mobs for a healthy duration. I think some people are upset by how some nerfs focus on "competitive play", unfairly targeting themselves as collateral.

I think a game like NWN and a server like Arelith should concentrate on if things are working as intended and if they're fun and interactive.

Sanctuary and HiPS being broken are real problems with unintended game behaviour that should be fixed somehow. Exploits of these are just blatantly annoying. As an alternative measure, a policy of banning or warning exploiters is a lot less effective than just fixing the exploit. And more than that, banning exploiters means that they lose out on the fun they could be having playing Arelith with friends. Not doing anything to the problem means that there's an abusable mechanic in the game that can go rampant, and I guess that's really the point of the conversation here so far: what constitutes a big enough problem for the dev team to fix it by pulling the plug on something. Right? As Glowing Mushroom points out, many of us learn about the exploits only with the updates, but even though the sphere of exploiters might be limited, fixing broken things (actually mechanically broken in that they are not working as intended) is sensible in itself.

While I absolutely hate the sentiment of "most vocal people are usually the most ignorant and should shut up" and much prefer the sentiment of "discussing these things and laying bare our arguments will allow for the sensible consensus to emerge", I think that the devs are right. Kenji's posts more than adequately explain why, and he does this all without condescending an experienced playerbase. Cheers!
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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by preggy » Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:42 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:57 am
preggy wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:33 am
I'd say this is just more evidence that you should not base an entire character build around a single powerful skill, spell, ability, or item. Its when people start to do this that it'll come under scrutiny to how fair it is, how balanced it is, and it will probably get nerfed.
But why not? If you sacrifice other strengths in the process, why is it something that has to be punished by nerfing it to the ground?

It seems to me that payoffs like this exist in many builds. Some paths and classes offer a level 28 feature - in order to get that, you sacrifice multiclassing. Should the people who opt for that be nerfed as well, because they "based" their entire build around one class?

I simply fail to understand the reasoning behind this line of logic.
As has already been explained, there are elements to the Protect Domain power that do not work as intended and have no real means by which to counter them. Yes, you can build an entire character and build around what is basically "Greater Sanctuary 2.0" -- but you then have to remember that greater sanctuary was very intentionally nerfed for a reason.

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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by magistrasa » Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:21 pm

Honestly I'm not sure whether to laugh or get irritated.

When I first made my build, I was getting advice from someone about it and that person lamented the fact that I chose the domain to begin with. All the buggy ways in which the Divine Protection feature fires off? I was told it behaved in the exact opposite manner. That you were still visible on a successful save, that you wouldn't be able to summon anything without breaking it, that unless someone was in your line of sight while casting it they would be effectively immune to its effect. That person discouraged me from ever using the ability outside of PvE.

Maybe you can say all this is my fault for not having tested the ability myself on PGCC or in-game, but I have to wonder whether I was deliberately misinformed. Or if my friend was passing on information when they themselves had been deliberately misinformed. For me it highlights the disparity between the competent builders / experienced players, and those who rely on outside advice to make anything functionable. The only thing I'd been thinking when I chose this build was, "I don't want to make another generic Travel/Trickery Cleric and Protection seems fitting for the deity I have in mind and hey look there's even a build guide for it on the wiki! Let's give it a shot!"

That last point especially rubs me the wrong way with all this ongoing discussion on "gimmicky builds." Protection Domain Healer Cleric is one of two cookie cutter builds available for the Healer path. It seems unfair to criticize people for building around something like this when the build is out and public and presented as the only alternative to what's otherwise the bog standard. Plenty of people using the build probably didn't even know it was broken and just wanted to try something new and weird and unique.

Mind you, those people are probably unaffected for the most part, since those people wouldn't have been using the ability to its fullest potential anyhow. So whatever, I guess?

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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:34 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:21 pm
When I first made my build, I was getting advice from someone about it and that person lamented the fact that I chose the domain to begin with. All the buggy ways in which the Divine Protection feature fires off? I was told it behaved in the exact opposite manner. That you were still visible on a successful save, that you wouldn't be able to summon anything without breaking it, that unless someone was in your line of sight while casting it they would be effectively immune to its effect. That person discouraged me from ever using the ability outside of PvE.

Maybe you can say all this is my fault for not having tested the ability myself on PGCC or in-game, but I have to wonder whether I was deliberately misinformed. Or if my friend was passing on information when they themselves had been deliberately misinformed. For me it highlights the disparity between the competent builders / experienced players, and those who rely on outside advice to make anything functionable. The only thing I'd been thinking when I chose this build was, "I don't want to make another generic Travel/Trickery Cleric and Protection seems fitting for the deity I have in mind and hey look there's even a build guide for it on the wiki! Let's give it a shot!"
I think it's a very, very small chance that the information was deliberately false. I'm not gonna say there arent malicious players out there but really, this build is very popular, played by noobs and veterans alike and if you'd use it in pvp (live or pgcc) once you'd know the truth too. So I really dont think someone intentionally lied here. It's just a case of when something is known for a while but remains undocumented and such things happen.
magistrasa wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:21 pm
That last point especially rubs me the wrong way with all this ongoing discussion on "gimmicky builds." Protection Domain Healer Cleric is one of two cookie cutter builds available for the Healer path. It seems unfair to criticize people for building around something like this when the build is out and public and presented as the only alternative to what's otherwise the bog standard. Plenty of people using the build probably didn't even know it was broken and just wanted to try something new and weird and unique.
On this I sort of agree with you. I dont think there should be builds like that on the wiki. Only stuff like 27/3 battle or caster cleric in the most straight forward and generic way, to avoid situations like this.

I'm quite annoyed myself that there's now a 27 hexblade 3 cleric with prot domain in the wiki now, built to intentionally exploit the bug, as far as I can see (because the DC is trash af).
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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by Duchess Says » Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:50 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:21 pm
Honestly I'm not sure whether to laugh or get irritated.

When I first made my build, I was getting advice from someone about it and that person lamented the fact that I chose the domain to begin with. All the buggy ways in which the Divine Protection feature fires off? I was told it behaved in the exact opposite manner. That you were still visible on a successful save, that you wouldn't be able to summon anything without breaking it, that unless someone was in your line of sight while casting it they would be effectively immune to its effect. That person discouraged me from ever using the ability outside of PvE.

Maybe you can say all this is my fault for not having tested the ability myself on PGCC or in-game, but I have to wonder whether I was deliberately misinformed. Or if my friend was passing on information when they themselves had been deliberately misinformed. For me it highlights the disparity between the competent builders / experienced players, and those who rely on outside advice to make anything functionable. The only thing I'd been thinking when I chose this build was, "I don't want to make another generic Travel/Trickery Cleric and Protection seems fitting for the deity I have in mind and hey look there's even a build guide for it on the wiki! Let's give it a shot!"

That last point especially rubs me the wrong way with all this ongoing discussion on "gimmicky builds." Protection Domain Healer Cleric is one of two cookie cutter builds available for the Healer path. It seems unfair to criticize people for building around something like this when the build is out and public and presented as the only alternative to what's otherwise the bog standard. Plenty of people using the build probably didn't even know it was broken and just wanted to try something new and weird and unique.

Mind you, those people are probably unaffected for the most part, since those people wouldn't have been using the ability to its fullest potential anyhow. So whatever, I guess?
This says it all. It is exactly what I am really frustrated by this whole business. I didn't know it was an exploit when I built a major award character this way, I was only following recommendations from a few Discord people and the suggested build on the wiki. That award was precious and I wanted to play something safe and stable. Frankly I didn't even get to a level where I'd even used it, but I certainly got to a level where that award is trashed.

Then when I express I don't understand the reasoning the dev basically says he can't balance around players who don't know how to play. Or the attitude that I'm taking knowingly advantage of an exploit. I mean come on, we don't all arrive fully knowing how to play every class, most of us consider this a part-time diversion in our lives and are just trying to hang in there and keep up with these changes constantly yanking the rug out.

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Inordinate
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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by Inordinate » Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:56 pm

Duchess Says wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:50 pm
This says it all. It is exactly what I am really frustrated by this whole business. I didn't know it was an exploit when I built a major award character this way, I was only following recommendations from a few Discord people and the suggested build on the wiki. That award was precious and I wanted to play something safe and stable. Frankly I didn't even get to a level where I'd even used it, but I certainly got to a level where that award is trashed.

Then when I express I don't understand the reasoning the dev basically says he can't balance around players who don't know how to play. Or the attitude that I'm taking knowingly advantage of an exploit. I mean come on, we don't all arrive fully knowing how to play every class, most of us consider this a part-time diversion in our lives and are just trying to hang in there and keep up with these changes constantly yanking the rug out.
What about this change makes your award use invalidated?
If need there comes to shelter my ship on the flood;
The wind I calm upon the waves, and the sea I put to sleep

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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by preggy » Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:09 pm

This change doesnt stop you using it. It just won't be a "You can stay in this for super long periods of time" sorta thing.

Its also not 100% the final change to it. I'm sure If devs feel its overnerfed to the point of uselessness that further changes can be made to buff it.

Frankly I'd like to see domains overhauled from the ground up now that Haks and level 1 classes/feat updates are possible with EE.
A balance run to change spells, domain functions and the like as well as implimenting new domains and ways to unlock alternative ways to build cleric - kinda like minor "Paths" if you will, in a similar way to how domains function in 5e but to a lesser extent. and what have you but thats obviously a lot of work and almost certainly far from priority so when some obscure power or ability from base NWN comes up like this..yeah, you may well be completely innocent in your use of it - but unfortunately that doesn't change the fact that it functions in an undesirable manner and contrary to how the dev's want the server to run, which is fundamentally the important detail.

I personally always thought it was just a meme build to lean so hard into a level 1 power with no other supportive abilities using the charisma.

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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by Curve » Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:31 pm

Duchess Says wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:50 pm
Then when I express I don't understand the reasoning the dev basically says he can't balance around players who don't know how to play. Or the attitude that I'm taking knowingly advantage of an exploit. I mean come on, we don't all arrive fully knowing how to play every class, most of us consider this a part-time diversion in our lives and are just trying to hang in there and keep up with these changes constantly yanking the rug out.
I understand your frustration and have experienced that frustration before myself. I had a 5% character nerfed with an update some time ago. That update/nerf was needed for the server's balance/health like this one was. We just kind of have to eat a nerf from time to time for the betterment of the server.

I would also caution you against feeling personally targeted by anything said on these forums by players or staff. Nobody is saying that you did anything wrong or abused anything. Chances are that nobody is thinking too much about you, me, or anyone else when they respond to these threads.

The ability was busted broken and it needed to be changed, it really is as simple as that.

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Re: Protection Domain - Is it now useless?

Post by Kenji » Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:16 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:07 am
Old Divine Protection* would last 1 round per Charisma modifier + Cleric Level. The new one has a fixed 5 rounds + Charisma modifier, which makes it a slightly more attractive choice for level 3 Cleric dips.
For those aforementioned physical attack builds (Hex is melee-exclusive, CoT can be both melee and ranged) that can utilize an exploit to have an insta-flatfoot ability to augment their offensive capabilities, they are not going to be heavily affected by a change such as getting 1 or 2 rounds extra on top of their originally 12-round now made 14-round domain active.
MissEvelyn wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:07 am
* Divine Protection is the actual name of the ability granted by Protection Domain.
Thank you for pointing this out to the public again as I have in my previous posts.
Kenji wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:01 pm
  • Protection Domain’s active (Divine Protection)’s DC save isn’t working as intended, using it will almost guarantee safety no matter what. (Same as the level 1 spell, Sacntuary)
  • Divine Protection can’t be interrupted while being cast, unlike G Sanc
  • Divine Protection can't be ground breached, unlike G Sanc
Kenji wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:46 am
  1. Cleric casts Sanctuary or Divine Protection
MissEvelyn wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:57 am
But why not? If you sacrifice other strengths in the process, why is it something that has to be punished by nerfing it to the ground?

It seems to me that payoffs like this exist in many builds. Some paths and classes offer a level 28 feature - in order to get that, you sacrifice multiclassing. Should the people who opt for that be nerfed as well, because they "based" their entire build around one class?

I simply fail to understand the reasoning behind this line of logic.
I understand you're still upset about the change, but before claiming that the build is "[nerfed] to the ground", I'd like to refer you to this post:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=33801&start=25#p265580
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=33801#p265424

As for "sacrificing other strengths in the process", I'd like to refer you to this post:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=33801&start=25#p265551

If you still do not see why your statements are false, please let me know and I will do my best to explain it again in either public or private chats at your choosing using my spare time away from overhauling cleric domains. I'm not patronizing you nor am I being sarcastic. There is a reason why people still misunderstand the change and some are averse to walls of texts.

If your point was to argue about how you disagree with other people's line of logic, then it has digressed beyond the discussion of protection domain change and I urge the following again:
Kenji wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:14 am
... have metacognition over their emotions and be able to look at the changes objectively.

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