Making the useless domains useful.

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Hinty
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Making the useless domains useful.

Post by Hinty » Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:16 am

The idea of giving a sail bonus to clerics of naval themed gods came up in the sailing thread and prompted me to put forward an idea I've been mulling over for a while now. Its bare bones to say the least, but between us all a workable system might be attainable.

As things stand most of the domains are useless, virtually every cleric, no matter what god is running around with at least one of the 5 or so domains that grant Stoneskin/Haste/Improved Invisibility. Most of the domains see no use, and I am not sure I even want to know how many clerics have domains that actually fit their god.

So how can we make the other domains useful? Well, we could go into an extensive and complicated system of swapping in and out spells until they are all eventually roughly equivalent in power, but given the near universal "must have" status of haste/imp invis, it'd probably boil down to giving every domain access to one or the other. Besides, if we rewrite the spell list for every domain that might get a bit confusing for newcomers.


But what if, we were to leave the domains more or less as they are and simply give small thematic bonuses for those who pick a domain that matches their god? So to go with the sailing idea that I mentioned at the start, Clerics of Umberlee/Valkur/Deep Sashelas get a hefty bonus to the sailing skill if they have the water or air domains. Do you reeeeealy want that stoneskin even tho your god doesn't fit any of the domains? Knock yourself out then, but if he did, you get a special "good rper" treat.


Considering each in turn...
Air Relatively useless if fun for thematic builds for storm related gods and smiting by lightning. Turn elementals ...
Bonus to sailing skill for Naval deities.
Free Lightning/Air elemental stream for Elemental air themed gods.
Bonus to climb for gods with a focus upon flying.

Animal Popular with summoners, early access to True Seeing, Pollymorph for RP shenanigans. I don't see a need to change it myself, although if all this is a little overpowered perhaps the summon bonus could be limited to clerics with nature gods.
Perhaps a bonus to Animal Empathy now this is open for all to take?

Death Gives a funky, if mostly useless, summon (Seriously would give anything for a shadow mastiff summoning theme...) Access to Phantasmal Killer (yay low DC double save death spell.... ) empowers harm and inflict spells. Dunno, probably balanced? Maaaybe give a slightly better empowered Harm (30%?) to death/necromancy related gods? (lets face it, with an undead summon, its the necromancy domain.)

Destruction Turn constructs (next to useless, even more so when over half the constructs on the server lack the construct race and thus do not get affected) and a couple of near useless spells.
Free damage bonus? Say +1 damage on attacks per 5 cleric levels with a deity related to strength (Bane, Kossuth, Llolth?)
Free Power Attack feat for gods related to mindless destruction? (Cyric, Talos, Garagos?)
Bonus damage to fixtures?

Earth Turn Elementals. Meh. Stoneskin and Energy Buffer are nice tho.
Bonus mining chance such as that with mining picks/gem hammers?
Access to the Earth stream?

Evil Turn outsiders, most have turn resistance, some pretty meh spells.
Honestly there are too many gods with too many themes to theme this one to them all. Maybe just take away the old spells and give them the same spells as good domain, since the planar binding spell is already themed.

Fire Turn elementals, some meh but thematic spells.
Bonus mining chance for smithing related gods?
Perhaps a reduced cost to smithing related god saves for smithing gods?
Free Fire stream for more elemental fire related deities.

Good Much the same as evil, except its spells are much more useful.

Healing Honestly? the empowered healing is pretty good, mostly for Healer path clerics but thats good enough I'd say.

Knowledge Knock is nice, but scrolls are cheap. True Seeing early/more slots is nice but not amazing.
Bonus to Lore skill for deities focused upon storing/spreading knowledge.
Bonus scry duration/reduced cooldown for deities focused upon divination
Cheaper god saves for alchemy/art crafting?
3 levels of cleric count as 1 bard level for bard song for music / entertainment deities

Magic Some interesting spells if not ground breaking.
Small bonus to caster level against dispells?
Small bonus to caster level when dispelling?
Slight reduction in cost for Dweomercrafting?

Plant Turn vermin... dunno maybe useful in the underdark? Barkskin is good, i mean the wands sell well at least.
Trackless Step when not wearing heavy armour for nature gods?
Bonus to healing skill?

Protection
I hear the sanctuary is useful, the spells less so.
+1 AC for defensive themed war gods?
Five levels of cleric count as one level of PDK for their abilities (Still need the necessary levels to unlock the abilities) allowing a 25cleric 5 PDK to get full access to PDK abilities without gimping their casting/dispel mechanics. (Probably pretty OP this one.)

Strength Early access/more casts of divine power and stoneskin make this pretty tasty really.
Dunno if it needs anything added, can you boost carrying capacity slightly maybe?

Sun Good substitute for the missing Repose domain for death gods that hate undead. Improved Turning. Not sure how effective this gets Sunbeam is kinda fun I suppose.
Extra Turning for free?

Travel I mean, it gets Haste. Nuff said really.

Trickery
Yeah, it gets Imp Invis. It realy doesn't need anything.
(that said, a bonus to hide/move silent/bluff would not go amiss for gods who actually fit the domain)

War Battle Mastery is a fun gimmick of limited use being 1 per rest. Aura of Vitality is nice with the spell focuses, and Cats can help if you want a dex cleric... masochist.
Battle Mastery gains a 10 minute cooldown if your god is actually a war god?
Bonus to leadership/Intimidate (Only for the buff/debuff abilities not election manipulation)
Bonus to leadership/Intimidate for election manipulation for deities with a political focus (Bane/Siamorph for example)
3 levels of cleric count as 1 bard level for bard song for "glory in battle" type deities (Garagos/Haela Brightaxe)

Water Turn elementals again. psh. Ice Storm is a fun thematic spell but not a must have spell.
Bonus to sailing for naval gods.
Free Water stream for elemental water themed gods.
10/- Cold resistance for winter themed gods.
Not all bonuses should apply to all gods that fit a domain although you could give multiple bonuses, You could, for example, give the free summoning stream to all deities that fit the water domain, then give bonus sailing to Ocean/River themed gods, and the Cold resistance to the others.
In fact, the same domain granting different bonuses depending on which deity you worship would give incentive for players to try out different gods that they may have not considered or make it more interesting if you play chars with two very different gods with similar domains.

Bonuses to skills could be say +1 per 5 levels for cleric class skills? Useful, but not "I am unrivaled in my field bow before me mortals" level of op. For cross class it could be +1 per two levels, can not exceed the number of ranks you have in the skill. Thus making them effectively class skills.



Its a pretty big upheaval, the geniuses behind the scenes may already be working on something else for all i know, and even if they wanted to implement something like this it might take forever but hey. Float the idea, see what sticks.

Exordius
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Re: Making the useless domains useful.

Post by Exordius » Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:11 am

These are great but i would prefer for there to be spells added in addition to your idea. Not a ton of course, dont want to make them confusing as you said but i could see certain wizard/druid spells being thematically appropriate for certain domains... for example maybe fireball for the fire domain. Some form of infini-casting for certain domains would also be nice, maybe in the case of the fire domain example it could maybe be given burning hands as per the GSF Transmutation. There are so many possible ways of going about this project...

AstralUniverse
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Re: Making the useless domains useful.

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:40 pm

I agree that some of the domains are still trash tier but lets give poor Garrbear a little break. Cleric is a popular class, and already one of the most versatile ones. I'll also quote a dev from discord which I agree with "I dont want 3 lvl cleric dip for domains to become mandatory for many random builds".
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Making the useless domains useful.

Post by Edens_Fall » Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:25 pm

It would be nice to see domain love, but after such a big skill update I don't see such a project getting attention for some time.

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Party in the forest at midnight
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Re: Making the useless domains useful.

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:56 pm

Please don't nerf animal domain :(

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Ork
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Re: Making the useless domains useful.

Post by Ork » Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:12 pm

Give haste as an automatic to the cleric kit like FS. Reduce the domains to minor thematic bonuses that can be changed throughout a character's life in accordance with their deity.

Exordius
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Re: Making the useless domains useful.

Post by Exordius » Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:42 pm

lets give poor Garrbear a little break.
Oh i don't expect any such overhaul happening for at least a year or two at the earliest... such a major change cant be done over night.

AstralUniverse
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Re: Making the useless domains useful.

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:54 am

Ork wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:12 pm
Give haste as an automatic to the cleric kit like FS. Reduce the domains to minor thematic bonuses that can be changed throughout a character's life in accordance with their deity.
I just love the idea that Haste will just be a cleric spell for all clerics and whatever nerfs need to come in trade are really fine by me.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Opustus
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Re: Making the useless domains useful.

Post by Opustus » Sat Jun 05, 2021 6:12 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:54 am
Ork wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:12 pm
Give haste as an automatic to the cleric kit like FS. Reduce the domains to minor thematic bonuses that can be changed throughout a character's life in accordance with their deity.
I just love the idea that Haste will just be a cleric spell for all clerics and whatever nerfs need to come in trade are really fine by me.
+1
Cleric life without the hastiepoo is a hard life, so might as well spare the misery from as many poor non-Travel domain cleric as possible.
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Skarain
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Re: Making the useless domains useful.

Post by Skarain » Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:30 am

The problem lies in: if you give Haste for every Cleric regardless of domain, then also every Druid should get it by the same logic.

Haste is mostly convenient for buffing. What if there was an item that allows casting of Haste 1/day with a CL 20 and a 30 min CD, reset on rest (so you can't stack those items)? For combat uses, stick to Wands or Potions.

Hmm... i suppose the 4/day Haste that Favored Soul used to have as a power would also work, or even 2/day. Worse than having Haste in domain which you can extend, but makes playing other domains less painful. As an Animal/Trickery Cleric, I would know. Druids could get the same.

As for domains.... sure, they could use some rework and cookies. Akin to Specialist Wizard rework, to make less used domains to be viable options. However, it is a large amount of work so let's not expect too much.

AstralUniverse
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Re: Making the useless domains useful.

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:43 am

Skarain wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:30 am
The problem lies in: if you give Haste for every Cleric regardless of domain, then also every Druid should get it by the same logic.
I'm not really following this logic at all and see no logic. Care to explain how to get to this?
Skarain wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:30 am
Haste is mostly convenient for buffing.
Haste is a lot more than just buffing. Casting your own haste in pvp and have it last really long time is a pretty big deal.
Skarain wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:30 am
Hmm... i suppose the 4/day Haste that Favored Soul used to have as a power would also work, or even 2/day. Worse than having Haste in domain which you can extend, but makes playing other domains less painful. As an Animal/Trickery Cleric, I would know. Druids could get the same.
There's a reason why it didnt work for FS. It just sucks. I really wouldnt think it a good idea to try the same (mistake) on another class.
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Making the useless domains useful.

Post by Anomandaris » Sat Jun 05, 2021 6:31 pm

Just giving clerics haste (and perhaps Imp Invis) to match the FS spell list seems odd to me. If you want haste, take travel domain.... I do think it uses the logic of "other casters have it, why doesn't mine?" In which case then we can argue, yah let's just give it to Druids & Clerics and anyone that casts divine/arcane spells, because... it's useful nice to have?

You have two domain choices, so use those to augment your spell list. Haste is not a QoL tool, it's a very powerful spell, the duration of which & CL matters immensely.

Clerics are very strong. Death domain and protection getting nerfed changes the meta but they're still very dangerous. It'd be cool to see domains worked on, specifically death after the nerf and the others that don't get a lot of play. I don't think the spell selection needs a change though.

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Re: Making the useless domains useful.

Post by magistrasa » Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:06 pm

Domains should be representative of whatever god the cleric worships. A cleric of Tyr shouldn't feel pressured to twist themselves around to take the Trickery or Travel domains simply for their (practically necessary in PvP) spells, because neither of those domain concepts have practically anything to do with Tyr.

It's not fair to put that kind of tax - a tax that often compromises the integrity of roleplay - on a class for no reason other than "that's the way it's been, deal with it." Favored Soul & Shaman both got Haste because the dev team understands how miserable life is without access to those abilities. If you don't have Haste while your opponent does, you're entering the fight with a SEVERE disadvantage.

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Re: Making the useless domains useful.

Post by Curve » Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:23 pm

Everyone can access haste without casting it by way of wands, module pots, and player made pots.

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Opustus
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Re: Making the useless domains useful.

Post by Opustus » Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:30 pm

Skarain wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:30 am
The problem lies in: if you give Haste for every Cleric regardless of domain, then also every Druid should get it by the same logic.

Haste is mostly convenient for buffing. What if there was an item that allows casting of Haste 1/day with a CL 20 and a 30 min CD, reset on rest (so you can't stack those items)? For combat uses, stick to Wands or Potions.

Hmm... i suppose the 4/day Haste that Favored Soul used to have as a power would also work, or even 2/day. Worse than having Haste in domain which you can extend, but makes playing other domains less painful. As an Animal/Trickery Cleric, I would know. Druids could get the same.
Exactly, every damn caster who buffs through the nose deserves haste. How it's done? Dunno, your solutions sound feasible. Is giving them more power an issue? Maybe cos haste is super to the duper. But I die inside every time I see a caster doing their 20 spells routine hasteless, and consider it a civic matter of the highest order to stop this wrong from happening. Imagine a world without that.

EDIT: To those who don't share my nanny mentality and say that tough shit, learn to play scrub! I say that not having haste on a buffer class and needing separate wands just to make life more livable is clearly a vagary of a very old and silly game like NWN and it's not intuitive at all.
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Re: Making the useless domains useful.

Post by MissEvelyn » Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:16 pm

Opustus wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:30 pm
Skarain wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:30 am
The problem lies in: if you give Haste for every Cleric regardless of domain, then also every Druid should get it by the same logic.

Haste is mostly convenient for buffing. What if there was an item that allows casting of Haste 1/day with a CL 20 and a 30 min CD, reset on rest (so you can't stack those items)? For combat uses, stick to Wands or Potions.

Hmm... i suppose the 4/day Haste that Favored Soul used to have as a power would also work, or even 2/day. Worse than having Haste in domain which you can extend, but makes playing other domains less painful. As an Animal/Trickery Cleric, I would know. Druids could get the same.
Exactly, every damn caster who buffs through the nose deserves haste. How it's done? Dunno, your solutions sound feasible. Is giving them more power an issue? Maybe cos haste is super to the duper. But I die inside every time I see a caster doing their 20 spells routine hasteless, and consider it a civic matter of the highest order to stop this wrong from happening. Imagine a world without that.

EDIT: To those who don't share my nanny mentality and say that tough shit, learn to play scrub! I say that not having haste on a buffer class and needing separate wands just to make life more livable is clearly a vagary of a very old and silly game like NWN and it's not intuitive at all.

Alacrity

Spell level: Bard 2; Cleric 2; Druid 2; Favored Soul 2, Shaman 2, Sorcerer/Wizard 2;

Innate level: 2
School: transmutation
Components: verbal, somatic
Range: personal
Area of effect: caster
Duration: 5 turns + 1 round / level
Save: harmless
Spell resistance: no
Additional counterspells: bane, slow

The caster is able to cast defensive spells at doubled rate as if hasted for the duration. This spell has no effect if the caster is already hasted.

Attacking or casting a hostile spell automatically ends the effect of this spell. Alacrity cannot be cast while in combat or while an enemy is nearby.



^ So, like this?


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Re: Making the useless domains useful.

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:52 am

I don't think every cleric needs haste, wands give you a minute of the effect and are easy enough to find. The other domains just need things that make not having access to an extended haste from a cl 26 cleric worth it. Its just going to take a lot of time and effort to even scratch the surface of balancing it, because as others have mentioned while clerics are the "Boring" class these days, they are still far from underpowered. Everything else just sorta caught up.

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Opustus
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Re: Making the useless domains useful.

Post by Opustus » Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:54 am

MissEvelyn wrote: Alacrity

Spell level: Bard 2; Cleric 2; Druid 2; Favored Soul 2, Shaman 2, Sorcerer/Wizard 2;

Innate level: 2
School: transmutation
Components: verbal, somatic
Range: personal
Area of effect: caster
Duration: 5 turns + 1 round / level
Save: harmless
Spell resistance: no
Additional counterspells: bane, slow

The caster is able to cast defensive spells at doubled rate as if hasted for the duration. This spell has no effect if the caster is already hasted.

Attacking or casting a hostile spell automatically ends the effect of this spell. Alacrity cannot be cast while in combat or while an enemy is nearby.



^ So, like this?
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AstralUniverse
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Re: Making the useless domains useful.

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:53 am

There's like one build that didn't take Travel domain because it used to take death/healing but now with the nerf to death domain I think we're back to Travel on pretty much all cleric builds. This goes to say something. It shouldn't be like this. It means DMs cannot ever look at someone's Domains as a point of reference to what the character is because they *know* it sucks not to take this domain and we've basically just disregarded RPing domains for the last 15 years. The way out of this is to remove Haste from Travel domain. Either give it to all clerics but then you gotta HARD nerf the class, or you give it to no clerics and but you possibly need to buff the class. That's just how it is, or we stay in this state of always taking Travel domain. Personally, I just want out of this limitation at some point, no rush. (some typos edited)
Last edited by AstralUniverse on Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Hazard
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Re: Making the useless domains useful.

Post by Hazard » Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:57 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:16 pm
Opustus wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:30 pm
Skarain wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:30 am
The problem lies in: if you give Haste for every Cleric regardless of domain, then also every Druid should get it by the same logic.

Haste is mostly convenient for buffing. What if there was an item that allows casting of Haste 1/day with a CL 20 and a 30 min CD, reset on rest (so you can't stack those items)? For combat uses, stick to Wands or Potions.

Hmm... i suppose the 4/day Haste that Favored Soul used to have as a power would also work, or even 2/day. Worse than having Haste in domain which you can extend, but makes playing other domains less painful. As an Animal/Trickery Cleric, I would know. Druids could get the same.
Exactly, every damn caster who buffs through the nose deserves haste. How it's done? Dunno, your solutions sound feasible. Is giving them more power an issue? Maybe cos haste is super to the duper. But I die inside every time I see a caster doing their 20 spells routine hasteless, and consider it a civic matter of the highest order to stop this wrong from happening. Imagine a world without that.

EDIT: To those who don't share my nanny mentality and say that tough shit, learn to play scrub! I say that not having haste on a buffer class and needing separate wands just to make life more livable is clearly a vagary of a very old and silly game like NWN and it's not intuitive at all.

Alacrity

Spell level: Bard 2; Cleric 2; Druid 2; Favored Soul 2, Shaman 2, Sorcerer/Wizard 2;

Innate level: 2
School: transmutation
Components: verbal, somatic
Range: personal
Area of effect: caster
Duration: 5 turns + 1 round / level
Save: harmless
Spell resistance: no
Additional counterspells: bane, slow

The caster is able to cast defensive spells at doubled rate as if hasted for the duration. This spell has no effect if the caster is already hasted.

Attacking or casting a hostile spell automatically ends the effect of this spell. Alacrity cannot be cast while in combat or while an enemy is nearby.



^ So, like this?
That would be so good for druids and clerics. Especially my druid.
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Re: Making the useless domains useful.

Post by ElvenEdibles » Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:44 pm

I like Haste as a spell because I can extend it and run around and do errands in half the time, for a long time. It's incredibly convenient. It's more than just a battle buff, though it's obviously that too. Instead of adding new spells just give them the one that already exists. Just give it to Druid's too. Seriously. It's a massive QoL.

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Re: Making the useless domains useful.

Post by Edens_Fall » Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:44 pm

As the domains are being reworked, I wanted to share the idea of the new "undeath" domain giving Undead summons SR the same way PM levels do to thiers.

Circle of Death, Negative Energy Burst, and Wail as given spells would also be nice.

Just my wishful thinking, but I thought I would share!

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Re: Making the useless domains useful.

Post by Miskol » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:38 pm

Since a domain rework is inbound, this thread will be locked. A feedback thread will be created when the domain rework is released.

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