Strength based spellswords lagging behind

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AstralUniverse
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:03 am

-XXX- wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:58 am
The current memo feels like "we balanced the weapon imbue ability around the spellmonk. Steer away from it at your own peril"
I've felt that way since I played a spellmonk a while back and every time I looked at the class on the excel spreedsheet and tried to build something.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


Papi J
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Papi J » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:33 am

I don't think it's necessary but you could disable true strike enabling imbues on every hit if the character has monk levels. This could possibly open a route to stronger imbues not breaking the class, so you don't get whacked 10-11 times by powerful imbues while in a timestop + true strike from a spellmonk.
Red_Wharf wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:19 am
satan wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:16 pm
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AstralUniverse
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:51 am

Papi J wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:33 am
I don't think it's necessary but you could disable true strike enabling imbues on every hit if the character has monk levels. This could possibly open a route to stronger imbues not breaking the class, so you don't get whacked 10-11 times by powerful imbues while in a timestop + true strike from a spellmonk.
I cant see that working out without giving it a Hexblade treatment, as in, limiting some of it's damage abilities to STR based characters only. Otherwise, you've just buffed dex swash/ss for no reason. Tricky stuff. So back to leaving everything as is and playing nagi spellmonks.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


Archnon
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Archnon » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:01 am

I have never understood why any large weapon that can be two-handed gets the ubab progression. I think taking naginata off that list would be a start. You either get the bonus ab and damage or you get ubab for less damage, not both.

Papi J
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Papi J » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:18 am

Archnon wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:01 am
I have never understood why any large weapon that can be two-handed gets the ubab progression. I think taking naginata off that list would be a start. You either get the bonus ab and damage or you get ubab for less damage, not both.
With the nerf, it’s actually kinda rare that naginata is a good weapon. It also forces you to quad stat. I can think of ... 2, 3 builds that use a naginata? The SS/Monk is the best one, of course.
Red_Wharf wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:19 am
satan wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:16 pm
Lose. The word you are looking fore is lose.

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Sleepwarden
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:09 pm

i briefly considered suggesting to give spellswords a buff on true strike duration, increased by 2 second per 5 levels, capped by base strength mod... So a str spellsword would end up with a double duration true strike. But then, that would also buff Naga monk which probably doesnt need it, or at least not as much as a vanilla str spellsword, but so would my AC idea I suppose. I'd still rather see some buffs to non-monk sspellsword than have the monk dip nerfed or changed though. People really really like playing it... And I feel like gutting it would probably be too harsh.

malcolm_mountainslayer
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:36 am

Archnon wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:01 am
I have never understood why any large weapon that can be two-handed gets the ubab progression. I think taking naginata off that list would be a start. You either get the bonus ab and damage or you get ubab for less damage, not both.
Str monks are not a super threat to the meta with their lack of ac.

Our concern about spellmonks is in context of dex spellmonks not naginata spellmonks.

I do hate that we have large sized finese ubab weapons though; looking at you qaurterstaff.

Good Character
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Good Character » Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:07 am

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:36 am

I do hate that we have large sized finese ubab weapons though; looking at you qaurterstaff.
Quarterstaves lost their +2AB recently. It's a bad kama now.

Papi J
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Papi J » Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:12 am

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:36 am
Archnon wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:01 am
I have never understood why any large weapon that can be two-handed gets the ubab progression. I think taking naginata off that list would be a start. You either get the bonus ab and damage or you get ubab for less damage, not both.
Our concern about spellmonks is in context of dex spellmonks not naginata spellmonks.
Strength spellmonk IS a concern. It is better than normal Str spellswords in every conceivable way, and the gear isn’t even an issue because I was able to write up a quad stat set with only greater/T2 runes. In my personal opinion, I’d say it’s probably the best all around spellsword currently.

This version isn’t really on many people’s radar, though. I expect that’ll change with threads like these highlighting it as very powerful.
Red_Wharf wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:19 am
satan wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:16 pm
Lose. The word you are looking fore is lose.

Loose is the opposite of tight.
For. The word you are looking for is "for.”

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Flower Power
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Flower Power » Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:21 am

Honestly, I feel like 99.5% of monk-dip builds could be balanced simply by making monk WIS AC into a Dodge bonus (which would make it subject to Flatfootedness,) instead of by trying finagle and balance each and every individual class. That's how we've handled most imbalanced AC-related invulnerability in the past (Palemaster bonus AC being turned into Dodge, giving Rogues very attractive light armor while also allowing them to recoup most of their lost DEX bonus... as Dodge AC, Divine Shield being Dodge AC (but that's vanilla.))

Swap Monk AC to Dodge AC, and Monk dips can then retain their lethality while still having counterplay in the form of being made vulnerable to being Flatfooted. It shouldn't impact pure Monks that much because they're already purpose-built to avoid being Flatfooted if they're built well and played carefully.
what would fred rogers do?

malcolm_mountainslayer
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:23 am

Good Character wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:07 am
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:36 am

I do hate that we have large sized finese ubab weapons though; looking at you qaurterstaff.
Quarterstaves lost their +2AB recently. It's a bad kama now.
Its still large sized and is better at disarming and resisting disarm than a long sword. Who takes disarm? Well nobody but that might change if every monk dip was a kama.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Good Character » Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:33 pm

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:23 am

Its still large sized and is better at disarming and resisting disarm than a long sword. Who takes disarm? Well nobody but that might change if every monk dip was a kama.
True, but at the expense of 3 feats. Could one truly fit in Disarm? Yes, but without gimping their self excessively. (i.e. likely losing immunity to IGMS and lower CL)

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Choofed
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Choofed » Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:59 pm

Hey guys!

So I thought I'd give my two cents on the whole discussion given that I've now got a few hundred hours behind a strength based 27/3 spellsword bard - played around with a handsome spell monk because I'm unimaginative. I will preface this that I'm still relatively new to NWN as a whole, but I would like to think my experience playing the class is valid.

I'm going to spoiler my experience below, because it contextualises what I'm saying but isn't required reading.

The strength based spellsword doesn't feel great in PVP. Imbues can be tricky to get off, but they pay off well so that's no real biggie. In a lot of cases against the plethora of monks and other high AC builds I end up crit fishing. If their AC is over 64, I cannot hit you without true strike (which is fine) but since a lot of people actually have that, it does make the APR of the spellmonk a lot more appealing.

The damage is greater per hit, which is great but one of the bigger problems in PVP is that everyone else has a crazy amount higher kill pressure. I know I exist to throw mords, and I feel like a support class capable of enabling people. I rarely feel confident going all out on my own unless I feel I've got more wards, and basically stacked the odds - and even then I'm a mord away from crying.

After having some group fights and some solo's, in the group fights all I feel like I do is enable others and tie them up for real murder munchkins to kill. My individual kill pressure isn't excellent and can be heal potted through, just like a DexSS - but I'm either not triggering as many imbues or I'm more vulnerable to counter attack. (In some instances, both.)


There are a few assertions that I would like to counter here:

+ Strength Spellswords can Solo a number of runic dungeons.

I can only solo the viper temple. I fish for cash a lot, working from homes great, I can only solo viper temple - and everyone seems to be able to solo it because the temple is too easy.

+ Strength Spellswords have room for ESF Transmutation, Brew Potion, Etc.

While we do in theory have this space, it cuts down on core AB or AC potential to do so. I personally made the choice. While it's very nice, I could actually have done this on my spell monk too.

Why did I do this? I'm new, I don't have a million years to play the game, and I would like to get endgame geared at some point on the character. Unfortunately, if I could have gone back on him I would have started with a dex build because they perform the job better.
lordgaist wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:30 pm
Conclusion: Monk SS is better at pvp while Str SS is better at everything else.
Sorry Gaist - I'm going to clip your statement here but consider me addressing it as a whole - not just this quote.

The fastest way to individual wealth in my experience has been through straight up PVE content. My experience has been that a dex based SS can perform better in PVE content, because the AC matters on the mini-bosses. This conflates to gearing faster - because ultimately the best way to be geared is to play the game. The utility of brew potion / Wand is a amount of passive income, but not everyone can buy a highly competative shop to push through the bucketload of potions. Carry weight, while an issue, can be mitigated by good management and is a skill learned and achieved.

They also outperform in PVP.

-------------------

Closing statement - if someone says "I'm fighting a spellsword" you are in most concievable cases under more threat facing the Dex SS than the Strength SS. Their tactics and capacities are going to be similar, but one will have more AC - and as shown in this thread comparitive damage.

The Strength SS has a surface level QOL improvement, but all of those can be mitigated by the Dex builds who come out ahead when those factors are considered. If actually doing money making PvE, they do it better - thus gain money faster.

I do not wish to propose solutions, as I am not a wizard of math and magic like some of you - but I overall agree with the assessment that a small uptick to strength based spellsword would be appreciated. If we are resigned to a support role, survivability would be appreciated.

Thanks for reading. : )

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Watchful Glare
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Watchful Glare » Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:42 pm

Flower Power wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:21 am
Honestly, I feel like 99.5% of monk-dip builds could be balanced simply by making monk WIS AC into a Dodge bonus (which would make it subject to Flatfootedness,) instead of by trying finagle and balance each and every individual class. That's how we've handled most imbalanced AC-related invulnerability in the past (Palemaster bonus AC being turned into Dodge, giving Rogues very attractive light armor while also allowing them to recoup most of their lost DEX bonus... as Dodge AC, Divine Shield being Dodge AC (but that's vanilla.))

Swap Monk AC to Dodge AC, and Monk dips can then retain their lethality while still having counterplay in the form of being made vulnerable to being Flatfooted. It shouldn't impact pure Monks that much because they're already purpose-built to avoid being Flatfooted if they're built well and played carefully.
If you want to cut out on Monk dips, make it so they only get 1 AC from Wis per every 2 Monk levels.

If you want to cut on Div Dip make it so they get Dark Blessing/+Cha saves at higher level. Cap Divine Shield to levels in divine class.
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msheeler
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by msheeler » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:15 am

I'd just like to see 28+ SS get some real love. A third imbue? Maybe unlock imbue fires per round? Right now I think it's like +10 Discipline and that sucks because you can get way better by dipping into almost anything else.

That being said this is also a class that sorely needs to be made into a true class and changed all together into something else so it's likely we'll not see any updates to the class till we see it get it's own class.

AstralUniverse
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:15 am

msheeler wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:15 am
I'd just like to see 28+ SS get some real love. A third imbue? Maybe unlock imbue fires per round? Right now I think it's like +10 Discipline and that sucks because you can get way better by dipping into almost anything else.

That being said this is also a class that sorely needs to be made into a true class and changed all together into something else so it's likely we'll not see any updates to the class till we see it get it's own class.
You get 30 CL if you go pure and you have better DCs on your imbues. The CL part is a pretty big deal because most spellswords have 27 CL which is lower than your standard paladin and ranger and hexblade builds which get the +3 CL boost, in comparison. I'm not saying going pure is the right move objectively but buffing pure spellswords can be a little dangerous, especially if you touch their damage output.

And yeah, definitely there's no point doing anything with this class right now if it becomes separated from wizard eventually.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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