Strength based spellswords lagging behind

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Sleepwarden
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:11 am

Picking up QOL feats like brew potion, and feats that are just not very good on a spellsword like ESF transmutation(no clue why any spellsword would take this) absolutely will result in inferior combat performance. Nobody would argue against this.
. The perceived issue, again, which is clearly illustrated above by papi I, is if you take identical builds, with the only difference being one is dex and one is str, the dex one is always better in offense and defense (even when the character sheet seems to suggest otherwise) because of how spellsword true striking works

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Good Character » Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:17 am

ESF Transmutation is somewhat useful for SS. Easier gearing, allows you to gear for INT, so you're likely looking at a 29 DC Slow spell.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by lordgaist » Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:46 am

Sleepwarden wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:11 am
Picking up QOL feats like brew potion, and feats that are just not very good on a spellsword like ESF transmutation(no clue why any spellsword would take this) absolutely will result in inferior combat performance. Nobody would argue against this.
. The perceived issue, again, which is clearly illustrated above by papi I, is if you take identical builds, with the only difference being one is dex and one is str, the dex one is always better in offense and defense (even when the character sheet seems to suggest otherwise) because of how spellsword true striking works
Not very good on a spellsword huh? With a STR spellsword you can take 14 dex and use an ioun stone with +7 animal buffs to get your dex to 26 so you can use a padded armor with 5 fighter makes it +5 ac, and as another said yes helps you spread the stats on your equipment more. And since unlike a dex spellsword you'll have greater transmutation for teleport one feat for a huge stat bonus buff across the board is an easy take. And as i stated before by not going monk dual wield build you have plenty of feats. And this build dropped monk spellswords and barbarian weapon masters with ease so i'm just again not sure what your criteria is for a good character.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:52 am

Your build seems to be twisting in the wind now gaist. You prefaced this all by saying your spellsword wasn't even good at PVP and he's slowly morphed into an absolute unit to better support your argument. Oh well.

And yes, I realize this epic spell focus gives you free (unstable/dispellable) stat points which could result in a higher dex bonus possibly netting one AC

But stop and think about that. You are picking up an ESF feat to gain 1 dex just to make it possible to have one higher AC, when the Dex variant ends up with 10-15 ac more without taking feats that are ... Ok not useless, but far from ideal ... That is just a very lackluster way to spend a feat imo... There's also the 500 lb elephant in the room reminding you if you do manage to make a full set of 5% gear, ESF trans will be completely useless since you'll hit your hard cap on core stats without it's boost.

Sticking with my original assessment that if your str build (that apparently could hit a dex mod of +5 in addition to all it's other miraculous powers 😹) underperformed other str builds( not going to debate how it measure to dex builds because quite simply it didn't) it's because it was bloated with sub optimal feats. Whether they were QOL or just sub optimal choices for spellsword in general(like ESF trans)

Last, in my opinion Burning a feat on craft wand and saying it balances out combat effectiveness that eclipses your build by several orders of magnitude because "different builds are better at different things" is just silly. You can believe it if you want, but you'd be wrong. All that makes your build better at is crafting wands.
Last edited by Sleepwarden on Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Papi J » Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:51 pm

lordgaist wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:46 am
And this build dropped monk spellswords and barbarian weapon masters with ease...
If your 22 spellsword, 5 fighter, 3 rogue, actually dropped those builds, I don’t think your build mattered at all. They’re bad.
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Papi J » Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:15 pm

I’m going to throw some more numbers out, this time for damage, so that we all know what we’re working with here.

I’ll be using the same builds as my other post.

Str 27/3 Bard GMW’d 1d6 Weapon (rapier, scimitar, battleaxe)- 3.5 base+ 14 str (sometimes 13) + 5 enhancement + 6.5 + 6.5 (average of 2 1d12 imbues) = 22.5 physical damage, 13 elemental damage, or 35.5. With defensive essences this is cut down to an average of a measly 25.5 per hit, assuming NO damage reduction or damage immunity.

Str 27/3 Monk GMW’d Naginata - 5.5 base + 19 1.5x Str + 5 enhancement + 6.5 + 6.5 = 29.5 physical and 13 elemental, 42.5 per hit or 32 after defensive essences... but at monk APR, while having more ac than the bard dip.

Dex 25/5 Swash GMW’d Rapier -3.5 Base + 4~ str, +5 int, +5 enhancement, + 6.5 + 6.5 = 17.5 physical, 13 elemental, 30.5 per hit or 20.5 after defensive essences. It’s not far off from Str bard but has like 8-9 more ac? And note the 4 APR.

Dex 27/3 Monk GMW’d Qstaff - 3.5 base + 4~ Str + 5 enhancement + 6.5 + 6.5 = 12.5 physical, 13 elemental, 25.5 per hit or 15.5 after defensive essences. Low damage but high AC and absolutely spams attacks especially with true strike.

As you can see from the math above, this “kill pressure” people claim that strength based non-naginata spellswords have... doesn’t exist. Classic 27/3 bard, has 4 hasted apr and only tickles you once you have defensive essences (you should). It is for this reason that I firmly believe spellsword as a class has moved mostly to a support role, going in for ESF abj dispels and cold imbues to secure kills for their party, instead of being solo powerhouses. It is better to have the extra dex ac and to survive longer as a better support, since you don’t do much damage anyway.
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Papi J » Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:20 pm

Unrelated but what’s the point of spellswords not going to T3 enchanting without burning a feat? Seems like a giant middle finger to spellsword players for no apparent reason. Give them free T3!
Last edited by Papi J on Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Red_Wharf wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:19 am
satan wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:16 pm
Lose. The word you are looking fore is lose.

Loose is the opposite of tight.
For. The word you are looking for is "for.”

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:24 pm

Great question papi. I felt like the better option was 30 points of craft mastery, but at least it impacts str and dex equally. Maybe if a high dex mod starts imparting dweonercrafting tiers we can drag that dead horse into this topic too : 😹

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:38 pm

Papi J wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:20 pm
Unrelated but what’s the point of spellswords not going to T3 enchanting without burning a feat? Seems like a giant middle finger to spellsword players for no apparent reason. Give them free T3!
I see it as the other way around. Most off-casters (yes, Spellsword is off-caster like paladin and ranger and warlock in regards to enchanting) get T1 at lvl 21 and dont ever make it to T2 (without feat investment or going pure) where as spellsword get scrolls for free.
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Papi J » Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:41 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:38 pm
Papi J wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:20 pm
Unrelated but what’s the point of spellswords not going to T3 enchanting without burning a feat? Seems like a giant middle finger to spellsword players for no apparent reason. Give them free T3!
I see it as the other way around. Most off-casters (yes, Spellsword is off-caster like paladin and ranger and warlock in regards to enchanting) get T1 at lvl 21 and dont ever make it to T2 (without feat investment or going pure) where as spellsword get scrolls for free.
Except it’s not an off-caster, it has the entire arcane spellbook. Compare it to true off-casters who have a few circles at most and sometimes don’t revolve around those books at all, while a spellsword does. It’s their main mechanic. Yes it is treated like one for enchanting purposes but ... it feels wrong.
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Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:19 am
satan wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:16 pm
Lose. The word you are looking fore is lose.

Loose is the opposite of tight.
For. The word you are looking for is "for.”

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Mattamue » Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:49 pm

27ss/3bard does get T3 without burning a feat.
So would 27ss/3ranger, for example.
If the total combined levels are one of the "partial" progression magical dwemo (Bard, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spellsword and Warlock) adding up to 28 total levels between these classes, then you get T2. Then, SS comes with a free scribe scroll for T3.

Otherwise, yes. Papi's damage chart illustrates the damage point really well. There are some shenanigans available with a -twohand weapon, but even then its still just worse AB and AC than the 27/3 naginata monk.

Who is the audience for this post?


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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Papi J » Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:58 pm

Mattamue wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:49 pm
27ss/3bard does get T3 without burning a feat.
So would 27ss/3ranger, for example.
If the total combined levels are one of the "partial" progression magical dwemo (Bard, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spellsword and Warlock) adding up to 28 total levels between these classes, then you get T2. Then, SS comes with a free scribe scroll for T3.
Huh that’s a really unexpected but welcome interaction.
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Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:19 am
satan wrote:
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Lose. The word you are looking fore is lose.

Loose is the opposite of tight.
For. The word you are looking for is "for.”

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:29 pm

I guess it makes sense, even tho I doubt it's intended. Monk dips are excluded from getting T3 like that so I dont care.
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by garrbear758 » Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:46 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:29 pm
I guess it makes sense, even tho I doubt it's intended. Monk dips are excluded from getting T3 like that so I dont care.
It is intended
You've done it [Garrbear], you've kicked the winemom nest. -Redacted

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:58 pm

When reading the wiki, it doesnt specifically says anywhere that different classes of the same category (primary/off caster) stack together, but it also doesnt specifically says anywhere that they dont. So consider me educated.
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:04 pm

i think the reason for the misconception about Spellsword dweomercrafting tiers is based on its options in picking a subclass. It's been pretty well established i'd say by how spellswords perform (on paper and in game) that their role is tanky melee support. that said, they will ideally want tumble and discipline. At minimum, discipline. That said, there are only 2 'viable' options from the pool of classes they can realistically pick from that will impart the 3rd tier of dweomercraft (ranger and bard).

Ultimately, what this ends up translating to in the building world it seems is simply spellswords need to take 30 points of craft mastery or burn a feet, since the options for getting t3 strictly from classes are not optimal/borderline not viable, especially if we are talking about a STR spellsword... (A dex based spellsword could honestly probably get away with dipping 3 ranger and not suffer THAT much compared to a STR variant, as STR is already on the low end of Tanky melee support AC as a humble 52 ac...

At least when measured against those spellsword monk dips, which also in my opinion do the same job. Tanky Melee Support.

At minimum Papi, i suppose you could add this as a boon (having t3 dweomercraft) on your 27/3 classical bard build on the wiki, not that i suspect its going to make or break anyones decision. It's still useful to point out (if they do choose the build and decide to comprismise because they really want t3 dweomercrafting)... Could end up wasting skills or a feat on something they get for free.
Last edited by Sleepwarden on Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Archnon » Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:22 pm

I think it is in a good spot right now between strength and dex. I have my issues with monk dips but overall there is a real tradeoff and both provide a key utility to a group.

Balance is simply when informed people can't agree on which builds are better and this thread is a testament to that.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:28 pm

taking a look at Papi's data, and based on my own fairly considerable experience with the class... I just don't see any trade off Archnon... What is it in your opinion?

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Papi J » Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:39 pm

Archnon wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:22 pm
Balance is simply when informed people can't agree on which builds are better and this thread is a testament to that.
Or people are disagreeing because the uninformed are making bad claims. This thread is a testament to that.
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Lose. The word you are looking fore is lose.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:50 pm

Sleepwarden wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:28 pm
taking a look at Papi's data, and based on my own fairly considerable experience with the class... I just don't see any trade off Archnon... What is it in your opinion?
Archnon actually agrees with J as far as I understand, but you seem to be missing the point. The problem is not that dex is better, it's that monk makes both dex and str objectively better than anything none monk on this class.
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:51 pm

i took it to mean monk dips "have some issues", but overall, everything is fine and we're splitting hairs.

One thing you may have missed, it' *might* not really just be monk dips. Swash is also objectively better as a Dex spellsword dip as well, compared to a str version... with painfully similar combat ability AND an extra... 7-10 ac...?

This is ultimately also why i put in the feedback to give spellsword an AC bonus capped by total spellsword levels and BASE strength...

Since even if monk dips get dunked out of existence, dex builds are still probably going to be better, and we'll be having this conversation about the same builds, with the same or similar effective damage, with dex reigning supreme because its AC will be much higher, which has much more of an impact on a spellsword being able to do its job than a few points of damage you will generally have a the same if not a bit lower chance of dealing out in the first place.

My solution would still give Dex based spellswords an edge of 2-3 AC (as in the case of Spellsword Swash Dex / Spellsword Swash str - as it will likely candidate for the best performing build for a spellsword build if indeed monk dips get nerfed)

This would at least bring the STR based version at least into the same ball park of defense, where its easier to make a case for it doing slightly more damage (sometimes)... And we can be in a position to split hairs.

This would give 3 decent options all who do different things better while all still filling the role melee support, and possibly a 4th assuming monk gets some kind of rebalance

25/5 swash str - highest dmg, lower AC, lower CL
27/3 bard str - lower AC, mid range damage, perk of being High CL
25/5 swash dex - higher ac, high damage, lower CL
27/3 - dex Monk (probably after ubab tweaks) - highest AC, lowest damage, with the perk of being high CL... Highest AC comes naturally from stacking Dex and Wis... Lowest Dmg would probably come from stripping UBAB, giving them normal lvl 27 spellsword apr

the only major casualty i feel like would be Naganatia spellswords... But i mean, Spellsword is clearly not a class that is meant to be using 2h weapons anyway... The fact this is even viable, let alone superior to a standard str sword and board spell sword to me is a perfect sign there is issues. Everything else would be mathematically fixed to do what many people on this thread already think/claim it does.
Last edited by Sleepwarden on Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:17 pm, edited 9 times in total.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Mattamue » Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:10 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:58 pm
When reading the wiki, it doesnt specifically says anywhere that different classes of the same category (primary/off caster) stack together...
Image

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:05 pm

Ah thanks mate. I must have missed that part in the examples... several times...
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Archnon » Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:17 pm

Sleepwarden wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:28 pm
taking a look at Papi's data, and based on my own fairly considerable experience with the class... I just don't see any trade off Archnon... What is it in your opinion?
The simple fact that you are dealing with a class that can not only 1.) Tank for the dex-based builds 2.) Apply decent damage for the Str builds (discounting monk dips again, something needs done there) but..... hold on ...... this is important ...... 3.) Cast 9th level spells

If you are a 27-3 spells sword and relying on your melee attacks purely in all combat situations, you are flat out doing it wrong, plain and simple. Adding an extra 6 AC to a strength class that already gets this many cookies is a lot. Remember, we are not balancing between strength and dex spellsword, we are balancing across a wide server with an infinite number of class combinations, and many S-tier and creative combinations. I can easily say Barb weaponmaster needs a boon because it doesn't get as much AC as a Dex-monk or it needs some creative spells because it can't compete for spellcasting with a level 30 wizard. Neither of these is true. There is literally always a bigger fish which is why 1 v 1 comparisons are not useful for balance purposes.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by lordgaist » Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:30 pm

Okay so now i understand the criteria to what you consider a good build is mostly based only around pvp. Yes the monk SS is going to superior to a STR SS build. When i was saying good at other things and not at others i was actually speaking of pve content, Quality of life, coin generating, variety. In which i personally think the STR SS stands above the Monk versions. You're talking about all 5% gear but turn your nose at feats that generate coin. But i understand those "other things" are clearly not fitting the criteria you're looking for to make a good character.

At the end of the day some players build their characters a little differently and not solely based around maximized pvp capabilities and would sacrifice some of the min/maxing for what they may personally feel to be an overall better playing experience that a jack of all trades character provides (Which is what a STR SS is and a monk dip SS is not)

Conclusion: Monk SS is better at pvp while Str SS is better at everything else.

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