Strength based spellswords lagging behind

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Sleepwarden
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Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:32 pm

Anyone else notice the significant powercreep that's put dex based spellswords quite far ahead of strength?

my solution is to add a lvl 1 feat to the spellsword class (Arcane Power, or Arcane Might perhaps) that imparts an AC bonus of 1 per 5 levels of spellsword, but it cannot be less than 0, and it cannot be greater than the BASE strength mod

Some examples

8 Str spellsword with 30 spellsword levels- Max Bonus =6 ##(30/5)##, Base Str Mod =-1, **Total AC Bonus=0**
24 str spellsword with 30 spellsword levels - Max bonus = 6 ##(30/5)##, Base Str Mod=7, **Total AC Bonus =6**
12 str spellsword with 21 spellsword levels - Max bonus = 4 ##(21/5)##, Base Str Mod=1, **Total AC Bonus=1**

WaldoT
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by WaldoT » Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:56 pm

STR can easily apply kill-pressure where Dex lags behind in that reguard.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Sat Jun 05, 2021 6:05 pm

Thats fair and I'm not saying Spellsword Str AC should be equal to Dex, but it should be in the same ballpark imo, so I feel like the ac still seems a bit low even when you weigh it against the additional damage they do. Maybe the answer is a smaller AC bonus then, dividing by six instead of five and lowering the max bonus to 5, putting the realistic bonus at 3 - 4 for most str builds.

Dex based spellswords should still have more AC in any case though.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Sat Jun 05, 2021 6:20 pm

im also no a true expert, anyone can correct me if this isn't right, but i dont think they (Dex based spellswords) lag quite as much behind in damage as you'd think, with the optimal spellsword currently being built to benefit from Monk UBAB... So they won't hit as hard, but they'll get more attacks that are more accurate, which seems to perform better as the AC of builds in general climbs

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by -XXX- » Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:09 pm

Naginata spellmonk, yay!

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by garrbear758 » Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:45 pm

You’re conflating dex based spellsword with specifically monk dip spellsword, which is an issue with monk and not spellsword.
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Sleepwarden
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:53 pm

im fine to call this thread a wrap as long as we can agree there's an issue somewhere with how str and dex measure against each other then

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Archnon » Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:21 pm

garrbear758 wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:45 pm
You’re conflating dex based spellsword with specifically monk dip spellsword, which is an issue with monk and not spellsword.
Preach!

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Tarkus the dog
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Tarkus the dog » Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:43 pm

I firmly believe STR spellsword is way more powerful than DEX. STR has the actual kill pressure, DEX is just annoying to kill ( and god forbid your enemy has def essences, then you actually do peanuts damage ).

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Wrips » Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:09 pm

The issue is with the spellsword, regardless of being STR or DEX based. Without a monk (dex uses a finessable or a monk weapon, str uses a naginata and actually ends with more AC than a traditional STR based one, if they have some patience to gear) dip they're very underwhelming right now. They have become more of a support class than the the versatile and respectable jack of all trades they used to be.

DEX spellsword can't really kill anyone and STR spellsword is even more outclassed now that deep WM is providing some more inflated AB at no significant AC cost (Swash 10 Fighter 4 WM 16 half orc has 54 AB, criticals for ~141, while having only 2 AC less than a STR spellsword. You can do the dex version on a moon elf to have the same AB numbers and trade damage for a lot more AC and Blinding Speed).

In the end, both iterations of spellsword lack the ability to truly compete against the new stuff appearing after the umd change, and they're just becoming weaker each new update that's put online.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:17 pm

I havent played a spellsword since before timestop was even nerfed, so I could be a bit out of date.

My take was always that spellsword and monk is just too good of a combo. There's nothing a spellsword scales better with than ac and apr (given that their ab is going to be the same anyway more or less). There's no match to monk dip with this class. I think even on a strength based spellsword I still dip monk and use naginata.

If I compare dex to str (lets say swashbuckler or something else instead of monk tho) I think str is ok. If I compare str spellsword to other none spellsword build, the class is in a good place.
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Papi J » Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:53 pm

I would agree that spellsword has been powercrept severely since the change to UMD, and almost every single non-monk spellsword is not going to be very competitive. Let’s compare some numbers from the classic 3 bard dip vs the 3 monk dip, both strength and dex versions.

Bard, Scimitar/Rapier: Greater Magic Weapon + Buffs = 49 Ab on a human, while getting 51 ac hasted with buffs, and 52 with shadowshield.

Monk, Naginata: Greater Magic Weapon + buffs = 50 Ab, 48 in flurry, while getting 53 hasted ac with buffs, 54 with shadowshield. Deep imaskari grabs another point of AC for 54/55. All of this while having more APR, and more Ab/damage, because of 1.5x strength modifier.

Let’s compare dex. I’ll be using 25 spellsword 5 swashbuckler vs 27 spellsword 3 monk, as I don’t think 27 spellsword 3 bard dex has enough damage to be taken seriously.

Swash, Rapier: Greater Magic Weapon + Buffs = 50 Ab, while getting 59 ac hasted with buffs, 60 with shadowshield. Note this one only has 27 CL vs dispels while 27/3 has 29 vs dispels.

Monk, Quarterstaff/Kamas: Greater Magic Weapon + Buffs = 50 Ab, 48 with flurry. Ac is 60, 61 with shadowshield. Has more APR but a bit less damage. Usually a net gain on damage per round. Also, hilariously, spellmonks that use a non-monk 1h with an empty offhand get both wisdom ac and weave ac. Depending on race you can get this to about 65-67 ac, self buffed.

The gearing is not as bad as it may seem as a glance, with even the 4-stat Naginata Spellmonk being able to be geared using only Tier2/Greater runes. The saves usually come out around the same as a bard dip who puts unisaves, as you buy into and then cap all of the save-correlating stats.

Personally I would be more scared of the spellsword that has more APR, as they are also all epic abjurers, and with a few decent dispel rolls you’ll be a lot more vulnerable to the increased damage per round of monk APR, and if they get to true strike and give you 7-9 imbue slaps per round ... ouch.
Last edited by Papi J on Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Papi J » Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:59 pm

Oops, I included the old quarterstaff 2H Ab in there. Spellmonk TWF gets 48 Ab, 46 in flurry.
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Good Character » Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:39 pm

Papi J wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:59 pm
Oops, I included the old quarterstaff 2H Ab in there. Spellmonk TWF gets 48 Ab, 46 in flurry.
I thought Imaskari naginata monk got 49 AB and 52 AC?

Thinking about an alternate build.
Last edited by Good Character on Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by -XXX- » Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:43 pm

IMO this isn't a spellsword exclusive issue.

ATM monk APR seems to be in a weird spot with how it relates to a considerable number of melee builds - not only does it feel like shooting yourself in a foot for not opting to go that route, but it also seems to be influencing the choice of alignment and by extension character concepts and RP.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by lordgaist » Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:36 am

There are things you're good at and things you are not with most classes and builds. My STR Spellsword with 5 fighter 3 rogue had tons of feats and made millions and millions of coin while easily being able to solo most of the servers content with ease was he the best for pvp? No. But for some reason people assumed he was. It was a real adjustment to switch to a Melee Barb/WM Smith character who is beyond broke.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:11 am

A low CL non esf abjuration spellsword didn't perform well in PVP because it generally lacks what makes a spellsword currently great in pvp. High DC Imbues and powerful dispels.

Regardless, where spellsword(str or dex) ranks in the current 'pvp meta' isn't really why I brought this up. I brought it up because as it stands dex is just objectively superior to str whether you are optimizing for PVP OR to make millions of gold.

A number of folks have pointed to issues with monk dips as the culprit, which I think is a fair assessment though.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:11 am

I'm seeing a pattern here. Maybe it is just too easy to gear since the era of runes and always+5 zoo buffs, I dunno... Maybe if throwing +7 or +8 wisdom mod into a spellsword build wasnt so freaking easy...
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Dreams » Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:33 am

Spellswords have a wide range of builds that people have thought out. It feels weird to come and say 'Yeah, some of those do certain things better than others.' STR does more damage. DEX does less damage, but has higher AC as you level. Anything with less than 25CL is going to make you question whether it is worth being a spellsword. You really need to have a lot of spellsword levels to do well.

Monk used to be a good choice, but really there are much better options available now. Be creative with it and stop comparing yourself to other people, you'll be way happier. Balance-wise they're in a good spot. It comes down to personal decisions with what you do with it.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Good Character » Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:14 am

My only concern with spellsword is how similar it is to hexblade. Without EMA, it's arguably weaker since it has to both land hits AND get its enemies to fail its DC. Also, Hexblade curses can't be resisted.

I cross my fingers hoping spell foci would increase the DC of certain imbues based on the imbue's effective, or increasing the overall effectiveness of each imbue based on foci.

Regardless, spellswords are in a good spot in my opinion as someone who's played spellswords since their release.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:35 pm

The "certain builds do certain things better" argument doesn't apply here. Dex apparently does everything better in the case of spellsword.. More defense, with the same or better spell casting and damage. There's no real tradeoff. Whole reason for the post. I'm willing to accept monk dips As the culprit, but Papi J's data on dex 25/5 spellsword swash compared to a str based
27/3 spellsword/bard doesn't exactly make me feel all warm and fuzzy - though it's certainly not as glaring as the difference you see between monk dips.

You can say 'higher strength more damage" all you want(because that's how it should be), but from data it seems the only place your str based damage will be higher is on your character sheet.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Tarkus the dog » Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:51 pm

When you as a DEX spellsword try to kill a PC who can click the heal potion button you'll quickly understand the meaning of "certain builds do certain things better".

Data, character sheets and numbers start to appear very hazy when you're running around trying to do your best in a team fight only to suddenly realize your friends are falling down one by one and you yourself feel very powerless to stop it because your build has no actual kill pressure and the biggest tool you have is the cold imbue ( which should really be looked into ) which procs 5% of the time. Combined with the fact that your seriously nerfed version of a build that was extremely powerful 3 years ago also needs 4 stats just to function normally and in the event of being dispelled you're forced to run the other way or make the most out of your low kill pressure low base CON build at the 90-60 hp penalty ( and other penalties that follow with being dispelled ) and God seriously help you if you run into anyone with a +5 weapon ( practically any melee these days )...

tl;dr: Good on paper doesn't mean good in practice.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by RedGiant » Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:25 am

You know...this is me thinking out loud here...but Spellswords are granted shield AC if using a one-hand weapon, seemingly excluding UBAB monk weapons.

Parry now does this too, so what if the Spellsword bonus was changed to something like untyped AC bonus and applied to all non-UBAB Spellswords?

This could allow non-monk 2 handers a modest AC boost. And, since you could now stack AC sources, for an additional parry investment, one-hand Spellswords could boost their AC somewhat more.

This wouldn't negate the existing monk builds, which would excell in their own ways, but would pull non-monk Spellswords up a notch. The only possible problem I see is that it could further boost the AC of non-monk, one-handed dex builds, but as shown above, these are pretty survivable already.

Edit: Doing this from a phone with a fried brain. So really am thinking out loud and numbers would likely need to be run.
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by lordgaist » Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:40 am

I still stand behind that some builds do things better. In the Wardens we had 2 strength spellswords and 2 monk spellswords (Originally staff and then moved to dual wield kama) Not only was the quality of life vastly in favor of the strength builds (With freedom of feats and spell focuses) Which the monk varients could not afford for their builds but the power level was not all that far off in reality, You can have a few more attacks per round, bit higher ac but much less damage and utility compared to the strength variants. Unless you're going the weapon master str side of spellsword you can easily afford, abjuration epic focus, abjuration defense, transmutation epic focus, craft wand, brew potion. So not sure what the criteria we are looking for to consider something a good character. Is it the ultimate pvp class that trumps all? No. But it can solo multiple runic dungeons no problem if thats what you're looking for, it certainly isnt a pushover in pvp in any means, has great utility and quality of life. If anything i felt i was much much better off from the monk variants when you take the character off the paper and use it in game.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:42 am

I'm pretty sure you dont get both off-hand ac AND wisdom ac. This should only work for monk dips who are NOT wielding a monk ubab weapon and give up the APR. That's fine really.
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