Strength based spellswords lagging behind

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:35 pm

Yes I realize a disclaimer would be absurd. It's just frustrating when people keep pointing to this idea of balance when it doesn't seem exist. It's actually just how you say, "not all builds are equal"... The idea that this somehow keeps things in balance is silly... That said, why is it such a huge deal to give some of these builds a boost, to make those builds that are SO far behind due to arbitrary design choice a bit more competitive.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by satan » Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:08 pm

And therein lay the problem.

Competitive.

Is this not an rp server? Nothing should be balanced. How powerful your Toon is shouldn't matter unless your story requires that, and it shouldn't always.

I say this as a dude that runs a dex based giant. It's fun to stray from meta.
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by magistrasa » Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:40 pm

satan wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:08 pm
Is this not an rp server? Nothing should be balanced. How powerful your Toon is shouldn't matter unless your story requires that, and it shouldn't always.
"Nothing should be balanced," you say, unironically, in a thread made to discuss how a class should be balanced.

Can we lock this thread before this nonsense becomes the new conversation? I'm not sure anyone has presented any thoughtful commentary for a while now.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by satan » Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:57 pm

Well that was rude. My point is solid. People are way to concerned with 'competative builds' when that is this is supposed to be an rp server. The whole idea of powerballancing builds belongs in an MMO, not a heavy rp server. If my saying that rustles your sensitive jimmies, I can live with that.
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:03 pm

Well first... I am playing an off meta character too. And correct it can be fun, stories dont always lead to PVP, etc. Second, my proposed change wouldn't even make it meta. As papi has said, even if you implement a 5 AC buff to str spellsword it /still/ wouldnt be meta, or even really compare to a dex spellsword which is itself, apparently, an off meta pick. Third, I'm curious to see how 'off-meta' your build really is for its role, considering if you are a Dex based Giant is a Spellsword, just for example, you'd be miles ahead of what you'd be if you picked strength... You'd have a whole.... 1 less AC? Which comes right out in the wash when you are already up 9-10 AC of where you were if you picked Str, even as any Giant race... Except ogre... Not that i imagine anyone is making a spellsword ogre with -4 int. But as a Firbolg? Sure, its off-meta, but its still optimized... Because for spellsword, Dex is just flat out better.
Last edited by Sleepwarden on Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by -XXX- » Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:09 pm

Asking the team to balance off meta builds seems like an unreasonable request - there's just too many possible combinations of classes, feats and skills.

Where would you draw the line here. I mean... buff to INT cleric and STR AA when?

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:11 pm

those arent stats you would have a logical reason to ever select for those classes. At least if you are trying to combat- optimize a build for them.

you answered your own question here.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Duchess Says » Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:15 pm

satan wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:57 pm
Well that was rude. My point is solid. People are way to concerned with 'competative builds' when that is this is supposed to be an rp server. The whole idea of powerballancing builds belongs in an MMO, not a heavy rp server. If my saying that rustles your sensitive jimmies, I can live with that.
I'm glad someone is still saying this. I feel like this place has gone from Dungeons and Dragons to League of Legends in the past few years.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:25 pm

i mean if people are having a conversation about something that you have no interest in or dont care about, the polite thing to do is just not participate, if all you plan to contribute is telling everyone to be quiet because what they are talking about is silly.

if those are things you want to talk about thats fine, but why railroad this topic with it?

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:53 pm

Sleepwarden wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:25 pm
i mean if people are having a conversation about something that you have no interest in or dont care about, the polite thing to do is just not participate, if all you plan to contribute is telling everyone to be quiet because what they are talking about is silly.

if those are things you want to talk about thats fine, but why railroad this topic with it?
No.

This entire thread is painted as "balance discussion" and for the most part, the claims here have been false and not in line with what's really happening in the server. It should be locked at this point. I *would* just ignore all this and keep on scrolling but again. If it's a balance discussion and you're throwing around a LOT of incorrect statements through out all of it then it's an issue and we're not gonna keep scrolling.

This thread can be locked at this point, honestly, this discussion is just going in loops for 2 pages now.
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by -XXX- » Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:01 pm

Perhaps we ought to let forum moderators decide whether a thread should be locked or not. The discussion here has been quite civil and not agreeing with a statement is hardly a reason for a thread lock.

You disagree with a statement? That's great! Attack it and state why it's false rather than claim that it's false and therefore should be disregarded without providing any further explanation.


Now back to the topic. How is the bandaid suggested here any different from asking to have sorcerers gain a flat +14 to AC and saves (because that's what they're getting when they dip into Pal or BG and not everyone does that either)?

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:18 pm

well, as someone who played a sorc for a good long while, i feel the pain here... I personally played an off meta sorc that was built for hellball and greater ruin which came at the cost of having paladin level saves and AC. Here's the thing though, he could do something better than the pally variants that had a meaningful impact in PVP that they also couldn't do. Currently not the case for Str vs Dex spellsword if you ask me.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Good Character » Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:20 pm

Agreed. More AC is hardly the solution nor does it suddenly make STR spellsword attractive.

The original and current issue with the class was/is that it needed/needs APR. High APR builds (usually DEX-based) was the powerhouse then and now.
Imbues got nerfed to procing only once per flurry. Once again, high APR builds reigned king because there was the secondary 2d12 damage that would proc every hit.
Imbues got nerfed further by reducing their effectiveness, specifically magic and negative. This did little to affect high APR builds as the 2d12 still exists, but would tank the effectiveness of low APR's builds from doing anything effective.
Finally (mind you these changes might not be in order as it's been a while and I'm recalling them from memory), the 4th APR was removed from spellswords.

The issue with STR spellsword is then its APR and AB. It cannot effectively make use of its class abilities. The solution must revolve around those points.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:28 pm

like i said if more AC isn't the answer, and its more damage, so be it. But it should be something. I'm just not sure its as simple as saying its just monk dips causing the issue between them.

I'd also personally rather see spellmonks left alone, too. Alot of people really enjoy them.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:29 pm

Sleepwarden wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:18 pm
well, as someone who played a sorc for a good long while, i feel the pain here... I personally played an off meta sorc that was built for hellball and greater ruin which came at the cost of having paladin level saves and AC. Here's the thing though, he could do something better than the pally variants that had a meaningful impact in PVP that they also couldn't do. Currently not the case for Str vs Dex spellsword if you ask me.
But it IS the case for STR vs DEX spellsword because you have a significant difference in damage output and kill pressure in pvp. If you try and play a dex spellsword against a warlock you'd understand that right away. You'd barely tickle the warlock.
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by satan » Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:50 pm

Sleepwarden wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:03 pm
Well first... I am playing an off meta character too. And correct it can be fun, stories dont always lead to PVP, etc. Second, my proposed change wouldn't even make it meta. As papi has said, even if you implement a 5 AC buff to str spellsword it /still/ wouldnt be meta, or even really compare to a dex spellsword which is itself, apparently, an off meta pick. Third, I'm curious to see how 'off-meta' your build really is for its role, considering if you are a Dex based Giant is a Spellsword, just for example, you'd be miles ahead of what you'd be if you picked strength... You'd have a whole.... 1 less AC? Which comes right out in the wash when you are already up 9-10 AC of where you were if you picked Str, even as any Giant race... Except ogre... Not that i imagine anyone is making a spellsword ogre with -4 int. But as a Firbolg? Sure, its off-meta, but its still optimized... Because for spellsword, Dex is just flat out better.
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:57 pm

well i have fought warlocks in pvp and am aware of that. Str has a similar issue imo. however dex isnt simultaneously getting shredded by melee due to lowish AC while it attempts to contribute somehow or even escape from such an encounter, on top of its other problems.

i guess we are back to where we started, where you think the dmg is there for a Str spellsword and I don't. like i said though, im willing to concede AC isn't the answer, as long as there is an answer somewhere.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Papi J » Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:21 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:29 pm
Sleepwarden wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:18 pm
well, as someone who played a sorc for a good long while, i feel the pain here... I personally played an off meta sorc that was built for hellball and greater ruin which came at the cost of having paladin level saves and AC. Here's the thing though, he could do something better than the pally variants that had a meaningful impact in PVP that they also couldn't do. Currently not the case for Str vs Dex spellsword if you ask me.
But it IS the case for STR vs DEX spellsword because you have a significant difference in damage output and kill pressure in pvp. If you try and play a dex spellsword against a warlock you'd understand that right away. You'd barely tickle the warlock.
The warlock can afk both the Str AND the Dex spellsword, is what I’ve been trying to show in this thread. Strength tickles. Dex tickles. So why not have 8-9-10 more ac, and lean more into what the class has been going towards... imbue/mage spell support. I am completely failing to see this “significant difference in damage output.” I put the math here so everyone would know what they’re looking at mechanically, and nobody can talk out of their *rear end* with wrong statements. If you think 5 damage per hit is worth 8-10 ac, well, you’re wrong.
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by -XXX- » Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:59 pm

What if one of the imbuements dealt damage equal to STR modifier divided by 3 (for tier 1), 2 (for tier 2) and 1 (for tier 3)?

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:09 am

Meh one of the cool things about spellsword is situational Imbue. Have two (assuming it's not already on the current pvp default frost) basically use by default isn't very appealing. But that's about as much of an opinion as I have on damage stuff

My logic was along the same lines as papis I suppose... to double down on pvp tank and take it more into the same AC Galaxy as dex version and leave damage alone

I think I also understand more about why many arch and astral and others think having Str based spellsword have it's AC looked at over it's AB is a bad idea for the "overall game balance" now as well... Just took me probably too long. And I also see how raising it's AC now would hurt that in the long run... My idea is to make it a bit more survivable in the current meta, where theirs is more to make it a more attractive and unique class overall to players and it's Probably the better approach. I'm convinced.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:20 am

Papi J wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:21 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:29 pm
Sleepwarden wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:18 pm
well, as someone who played a sorc for a good long while, i feel the pain here... I personally played an off meta sorc that was built for hellball and greater ruin which came at the cost of having paladin level saves and AC. Here's the thing though, he could do something better than the pally variants that had a meaningful impact in PVP that they also couldn't do. Currently not the case for Str vs Dex spellsword if you ask me.
But it IS the case for STR vs DEX spellsword because you have a significant difference in damage output and kill pressure in pvp. If you try and play a dex spellsword against a warlock you'd understand that right away. You'd barely tickle the warlock.
The warlock can afk both the Str AND the Dex spellsword, is what I’ve been trying to show in this thread. Strength tickles. Dex tickles. So why not have 8-9-10 more ac, and lean more into what the class has been going towards... imbue/mage spell support. I am completely failing to see this “significant difference in damage output.” I put the math here so everyone would know what they’re looking at mechanically, and nobody can talk out of their *rear end* with wrong statements. If you think 5 damage per hit is worth 8-10 ac, well, you’re wrong.
Spellsword tickles in just the right amount. It is also a lvl 9 caster as you pointed out rightfully. If STR lacks damage then dex *absolutely* lacks damage. If your argument is that this class (outside of monk dip) is just relegated to imbue/support regardless of str/dex so you opt for the ac then I agree. I wasnt really saying otherwise either. I still think the class in general is in a good spot, although there's no denying it is monk that makes it shine, dex or str.
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Papi J » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:30 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:20 am
Spellsword tickles in just the right amount. It is also a lvl 9 caster as you pointed out rightfully. If STR lacks damage then dex *absolutely* lacks damage. If your argument is that this class (outside of monk dip) is just relegated to imbue/support regardless of str/dex so you opt for the ac then I agree. I wasnt really saying otherwise either. I still think the class in general is in a good spot, although there's no denying it is monk that makes it shine, dex or str.
That has been my point, yes. They both lack damage anyway, so you go for the survivability and double down on the support role. The tickling will not scare anyone.
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satan wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:16 pm
Lose. The word you are looking fore is lose.

Loose is the opposite of tight.
For. The word you are looking for is "for.”

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:54 am

Papi J wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:30 am
AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:20 am
Spellsword tickles in just the right amount. It is also a lvl 9 caster as you pointed out rightfully. If STR lacks damage then dex *absolutely* lacks damage. If your argument is that this class (outside of monk dip) is just relegated to imbue/support regardless of str/dex so you opt for the ac then I agree. I wasnt really saying otherwise either. I still think the class in general is in a good spot, although there's no denying it is monk that makes it shine, dex or str.
That has been my point, yes. They both lack damage anyway, so you go for the survivability and double down on the support role. The tickling will not scare anyone.
So if monk synergy is nerfed, we'd actually need buffs to damage after?? O.o
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:39 am

if monk synergy got nerfed... spellsword will be basically down to 2 options... Bard and Swash. Bard would likely be for the 27/3 split, Swash for the 25/5... Str can do either build, dex would probably stick to 25/5. Niether does the kind of Dmg of either flavor of spellmonk

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by -XXX- » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:58 am

It'd open up the design space for better weapon imbuements though.

The current memo feels like "we balanced the weapon imbue ability around the spellmonk. Steer away from it at your own peril"

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