Strength based spellswords lagging behind

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:31 pm

If there is a wider issue with spellsword balance, thats fine... But here we are talking about Str vs Dex... And a dex based Non monk SS will have identical spell casting +7-10 more AC on average over Str... And is mathematically proven to do about the same damage in realistic pvp scenarios. So... Again... Whatever you try to do on a Str Spellsword, is done better by Dex Spellsword.

Also, if you want, I can look at the damage a Barb/WM does, and if you really still think it deserves to have 60 AC after... Well, there's just no pleasing some people ;)

How this relates to the games overall balance... has pretty much been well defined... Spellsword is a Tanky Melee Support that specializes in securing kills and stripping wards...

but the idea that internally balancing spellsword class combos would somehow disrupt that is not logical in my opinion.
Last edited by Sleepwarden on Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:51 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:42 pm

Well you are still neglecting something Gaist. You could pick any logical feat selection you want, any logical class selection you want, and Dex version would STILL be better, even with all of your QOL picks (barring Spellsword/Bard and Spellsword/ Naganatia-Monks , which are sub-optimal anyway, but do not have a viable Dex counterpart). I understand you might feel differently (for some reason... I'd be happy to look at any combat logs you have with all the Spellmonks and Barb/WMs you "ran through with ease"... Maybe I have it wrong. ) Until then, I'm not sure what you expect me or anyone else to tell you beyond that we're glad you had fun on your build and were successful, but the fact remains it had nothing to do with your build, let alone that your primary stat was strength. I would argue to say the classes and feats you selected don't even necessarily constitute what most people on here consider "a build".

This is about balance and optimization. I'm not 'turning my nose up' at anything. It's a simple fact, again you don't need to have an optimal char to make gold selling wands, or to even farm epic PVE mobs solo. Those just aren't good measurements for this discussion. Niether is being able to teleport, making your own potions, or anything else that doesnt directly improve your character's ability to fill THE ONLY ROLE the kit the devs have setup for a spellsword allows it to excel at over other classes - tanky melee support. Nothing you have said is a good reason to end this discussion.

Now if you can show me the math behind how you were consistently running through Spellmonks and Barb WMs or even a fully optimized str spellsword for that matter, with ease, that... That would probably shut me up... So let's see it. If it is the case, maybe tomorrow I'll post about how str spellsword needs nerfed, and that barb WM needs 60 AC because your 22 ss/5 ftr/3 rog with ESF trans and brew potion that inexplicably has 12 dex so that it can wear padded armor to fully benefit from +7 animal spells is too OP, who knows. After all, by your own admission, it's 'not even a good pvper'... So something isn't adding up and should probably be looked at if all you are saying is true.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Archnon » Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:05 am

Sleepwarden wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:31 pm
If there is a wider issue with spellsword balance, thats fine... But here we are talking about Str vs Dex... And a dex based Non monk SS will have identical spell casting +7-10 more AC on average over Str... And is mathematically proven to do about the same damage in realistic pvp scenarios. So... Again... Whatever you try to do on a Str Spellsword, is done better by Dex Spellsword.

Also, if you want, I can look at the damage a Barb/WM does, and if you really still think it deserves to have 60 AC after... Well, there's just no pleasing some people ;)

How this relates to the games overall balance... has pretty much been well defined... Spellsword is a Tanky Melee Support that specializes in securing kills and stripping wards...

but the idea that internally balancing spellsword class combos would somehow disrupt that is not logical in my opinion.
But here is the thing, the same logic could be used to apply to a lot of 1v1 internal class pairs. Let me lay out my logic:

1.) The game is built around balancing Strength (damage) and Dexterity (AC).
2.) Certain class combinations disrupt this balance, currently almost always in favor of adding damage to dexterity builds. Spellswords is one example. However, Ranger, Hexblade, Swashbuckler, Anything with sneak attack, and Dex based divine dips all do this.
3.) If you argue that in Dex vs Str, anyone of these classes favors dex, you are likely right thanks to this.
4.) However, by your logic, strength based versions of all of these classes should get extra AC.

If we start advancing AC like that, it will just be high AC across the board. That is why there is a bigger balance picture at stake here. You have hit on an issue that drives disparate balance towards dex across the server, namely, alternative sources of damage. But your solution is simply to take one instance of this problem and boost the class even further. This will inevitably lead to efforts to balance all these other classes.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:08 am

If everyone, right now, who played spellsword switched to spellmonk, or even 25/5 dex spellsword swash, because they are objectively better than all the other options, this would Raise the AC much higher for the class as a whole without lowering its damage significantly than if everyone stayed as is and str spellswords recueved 4-5 more AC,. All my idea would do is create nire competative spellswords who are slightly less tanky than dex but do slightly more damage, however ultimately are equipped do the same job. I still can't for the life of me figure out why is that a bad thing exactly? How does this hurt balance?

Your assessment is in my opinion is a deductive fallacy. First... You are applying my idea where it doesnt belong (to classes other than spellswords) and then claiming it doesnt make sense because it also doesnt work for say... Ranger. I don't see that as a valid argument.

maybe rangers could benefit from this or something like this, maybe they cant. I don't know, wouldn't claim to know, havent looked closely enough to even guess.

You're also saying that we're on a slippery slope, which is another flawed argument. How exactly can you say it will "inevitably require" balance changes? What is the basis for that? We're talking about giving an underperforming class maybe 4-5 AC... Not Weapon Master Damage, or like Deep Pale Master Tankiness. I could see how extremes like that could hurt balance... but a few points of AC to a TANK class outshined by its dex counter parts by like 10-15 AC ...seems reasonable if you ask me? I dunno maybe I have it all wrong. I'm willing to accept whatever is decided.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Papi J » Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:14 am

Vanilla strength spellsword could probably use some damage. With swash helping close the 10 damage gap to only 5, there is absolutely no reason to play it other than the caster level I guess... which isn’t that bad when you consider you don’t really need any stats other than dex/con, unlike monk, and gearing a lil str, and the 2 drop of CL and -5 damage doesn’t compare to a gain of 8-10 AC.

You could give it a few points of ac but personally I’d still go swash every time. 4-6 ac is still more valuable to me than 5 damage and it’s not ever going to be close.
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:18 pm

Baby steps papi. Look at the amount of logs rolled at this post just for asking for a 4-5 AC bandaid.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Good Character » Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:25 pm

Strength-based spellswords do not need more AC. Rather, they need bonuses and/or feats akin to Hexblades or Barbarians based on a certain hard stat. I recommend it be tied to STR and INT seeing as dex-based spellswords cannot afford INT. An example of a feat that should allowed be to taken is the re-introduction of the INT-based damage that Swashbuckler stole. An example of a bonus would be giving spellswords a bonus attack per round so long as they're not -twohanding or in possession of a two-hand based weapon like a naginata.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:31 pm

You can have like 28 stable intelligence on a non monk dex spellsword. This idea buffs str and dex equally, and dex already feels like it's in a good spot.

It would have to be linked to Str, or the gap between str and dex would only grow, since now you are giving dex more damage and in a post monk dip world, it wouldn't even come with a tradeoff(ok, there's a 5 dmg tradeoff... )

Still I can respect your opinion that they don't need AC and actually need more damage. They certainly need /something/. I just felt like AC makes more sense since the only role a spellsword kit has is tank support and more damage won't help with that much. 1 apr more for str spellsword would be nice in general, but in terms of what it specializes in, I'm still not sure it'd be worth it over the 10-15 more AC you end up with by using an identical build based on dex

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Good Character » Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:04 pm

I mentioned both and that they had to be hard stats. DEX spellswords can afford neither being bumped up whereas a STR spellsword can.

As someone who's played spellswords of all varieties from its birth aside from the weaponmaster version, STR spellswords lack kill pressure and defense. As Archnon mentioned, it would be counterproductive to have two separate stats (STR vs. DEX) if we just afford spellswords more AC.

That means spellswords either need more AB or damage or something relative to both. I lean more towards AB given the whole point of spellswords are their imbues, yet I feel that might make them too powerful. The other option is buffing imbues for STR spellswords, but frankly we have only seen imbues nerfed and never buffed. It's why I mentioned affording STR spellswords more upfront damage is likely the best option.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:16 pm

gotcha. i took it to mean either/ or. like i said, im open to just about anything, though i'd hate to see classe combos people really enjoy playing get dismantled for the sake of gamebalance, too (like spellmonk)... So again i was just trying to be really conservative.

I still don't see how raising the average AC of spellswords globally is a huge balance issue though. Unless the games balance somehow revolves around Str based spellswords not being competative with their dex counterpart (in dmg or tankiness). The notion that this balance revolves around a certain chunk of the spellsword population being objectively inferior to another just seems... kind of absurd.

I also am leary of making spellswords a class that has too much melee kill preassure,... And this is where I go down my own slippery slope... But I only see a class setup like that being allowed to exist with a gutted spellbook and i'd rather leave everything as is than that, which is why I am suggesting to narrow the AC gap (in favor of dex) without touching dmg (since... yes... per hit... Str will do... a whole 5-10 damage more a hit in realistic situations...)

serious min/maxers would STILL say "Str/spell sword is subpar" after a buff of 4 AC anyway, since Dex is still going to edge it out soundly in AC, and the damage for AC tradeoff STILL won't really be there...
Last edited by Sleepwarden on Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Good Character » Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:01 pm

Raising the AC of spellswords in the current state of DEX-based spellswords will yield 50 AB/55+ AC super off-tanks with great utility (i.e. spells and imbues).
Sleepwarden wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:16 pm
The notion that this balance revolves around a certain chunk of the spellsword population being objectively inferior to another just seems... kind of absurd.
This is the step that had to be taken with Hexblades and Rangers. It makes sense on a server where damage buffs are prevalent (e.g. bard song, essences, weapons with high damage bonuses, damage-increasing class abilities on cooldown, etc.).

Naginata spellmonk, a STR spellsword, deals 1.5x more damage per hit on average than a DEX spellmonk using a q-staff or kama. The tradeoff is the naginata spellmonk loses 3-4 AC in comparison and 2 APR.
Last edited by Good Character on Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:46 pm

thats also a build that points to a glaring issue with monk ubab and their dips in general... Which I try to avoid, because if the team decides to take it away it would completely gut that one

believe me, very tempted to burn a greater and take one for a spin through the underdark... :)

This is why I keep pointing to the 25/5 - Spellsword/Swash Build... Since its a build that *could* be good for both Str and Dex, even amidst a flurry of sweeping monk balance changes, with a tweak to str ac
Last edited by Sleepwarden on Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Papi J » Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:01 pm

Even if the Str spellsword had 54/55 AC I would still opt for dex 25/5 swash and get 59/60. The damage of a Str spellsword is pathetic, and god forbid the enemy has DI or DR, then you do no damage at all. It would need a sizeable amount of damage for it to be relevant, because 25.5 average after essences is not to be taken seriously, especially if you can get DI/DR and neuter that down even further.

This is also a product of the global numbers increases and powercreeping of the server, disregarding damage entirely. 49 ab and 50 ac is alright, but there’s so much that stomps on it without batting an eye, because of generally low Ab/ac combined with no kill pressure.
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:50 am

It's kind of unfair to keep drawing a line back to classes like ranger and hexblade. Those classes don't require a 25-27 level investment to work properly. Both are front loaded as heck with good stuff.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Dreams » Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:00 am

Arelith doesn’t exist in a vacuum. You need to consider these things with a very wide scope.

“Dex better than Str” is a dead horse that people keep beating, somehow forgetting about many of the areas/builds that ‘Str better than Dex’.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by -XXX- » Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:32 am

DEX seems to be the optimal route for Spellswords ATM. It's entirely possible that's by design.

Just because STR spellsword builds are perfectly viable, doesn't mean that an effort to make them perform on par with their DEX counterparts in everything is warranted.

On the contrary - IMO such efforts would only lead to more power creep. If anything, IMO DEX spellswords should be pulled down a bit rather than making the STR version of spellsowords stronger ...which would inevitably lead to more nerfs to weapon imbuements as those seem to be the greatest enabler of builds that go full ret~ *aehm* DEX.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Papi J » Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:13 am

I don’t even think dex spellsword is that great, it’s just better than str entirely based of the fact it stays alive longer to support better. Pulling it down is a terrible idea. Then the whole class is even worse than it already is.
Last edited by Papi J on Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Papi J » Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:15 am

Dreams wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:00 am
Arelith doesn’t exist in a vacuum. You need to consider these things with a very wide scope.

“Dex better than Str” is a dead horse that people keep beating, somehow forgetting about many of the areas/builds that ‘Str better than Dex’.
Yes, but strength is most often still a viable option for most classes/archetypes, it’s just worse than dex, usually. In the case of spellsword, strength (non-monk) is not competitive whatsoever.
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by -XXX- » Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:40 am

Papi J wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:13 am
I don’t even think dex spellsword is that great, it’s just better than str entirely based of the fact it stays alive longer to support better. Pulling it down is a terrible idea. Then the whole class is even worse than it already is.
Well, if you can look at something like a dex spellsword and go "meh", then that might be somewhat hinting at the top builds meta having finally powercrept into the state of stratospheric overpoweredness, wouldn't you say?

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Papi J » Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:57 am

-XXX- wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:40 am
Papi J wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:13 am
I don’t even think dex spellsword is that great, it’s just better than str entirely based of the fact it stays alive longer to support better. Pulling it down is a terrible idea. Then the whole class is even worse than it already is.
Well, if you can look at something like a dex spellsword and go "meh", then that might be somewhat hinting at the top builds meta having finally powercrept into the state of stratospheric overpoweredness, wouldn't you say?
You say that like dex SS is this S tier build. The problem isn’t any of the specific spellsword archetypes, it’s spellsword as a class. It has shifted into a support role if you are not a naginata monk, and I don’t remember a time where it /wasn’t/ that way. I wasn’t around for OP spellswords, but the ones I have always known simply don’t have real kill pressure.
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by -XXX- » Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:22 am

Papi J wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:57 am
You say that like dex SS is this S tier build.
Not as much saying that as merely expressing an opinion that that's where the S tier IMO should be.

Dex Spellswords can turn most PvE content into an academic excercise already, what's the point of having even better builds than that other than "i took the time to speedrun lvl up the latest monster of the week custom class build, so I get to be the PvP boogeyman for the next month" ?

If that's not the textbook definition of powercreep, then I dunno what is. Hence why I suggested that rather than buffing something that seems to be underperforming atm, setting a benchmark and applying blanket nerfs might have been a consideration.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:27 pm

Spellsword doesnt need a buff or a nerf except the synergy between monk and spellsword which should be probably further limited than it is now. If you level a standard str spellsword with 10-12 dex and wisdom and just grab monk dip instead of bard dip in lvl 28 you are upgrading yourself in all departments except spells per day (since you throw away all your intelligence gear and 4-stat with wisdom and dex instead), enchanting tier, and maybe other small insignificant things. Some would argue that these gear trade-offs and much higher difficulty of gearing should reward the build with slightly better powercreep. But regardless the bottom line is the class Spellsword is FINE.
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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:09 pm

Or you can just go dex, not make any trade offs, and do like 5 less dmg a hit (with swash or monk, spellswords only decent MC options atm). Some argue you *should* be better just because you picked dex (kidding sorry)

Also, you are kinda talking out of both sides of your mouth. On the one hand you point to Naga monk as a viable str option while with the other you say spellsword/monk needs looked at.

I don't think any of this proves your point or illustrates this "balance" people keep talking about but can't explain that revolves around str spellsword being subpar :joy:

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Sleepwarden » Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:18 pm

Last, if dex spellsword is meant to be better than str counterpart by design then quite simply there is no balance. It's just arbitrary game design. Putting a disclaimer on spellsword that it's primary stat is dex in the char build screen and call it a day I guess. The choice to pick either implies a tradeoff somewhere, and what the math shows is their just isn't one anywhere that balances out the huge advantages dex has.

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Re: Strength based spellswords lagging behind

Post by Ork » Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:26 pm

Not all builds are equal. You don't need a disclaimer, LOL. This forum is the absolute worst sometimes.

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