Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

Papi J
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:10 am

Re: Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

Post by Papi J » Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:46 am

Jordenk wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:42 am
I've played multiple shadow mages (wiz & sorc based), a sorcadin and also PC's like rogues that are total murder bait to a good DC caster with awful Will/Fort saves.

First of all a "DC Caster" isn't fully reliant on DC based spells. It's "one" option in the kit. There are plenty of saveless or direct damage spells that a good SM/DC caster will employ against an opponent with or without good saves.

Secondly, the fact that if you encounter a group of 1-x people, and you can, with decent chance, catch one or more of those folks out with say a "Weird" by killing or fearing them (assuming they're not all fully warded), is useful. Even when I had over 40 DC save or die spells, I will admit, I utilized the spells somewhat sparingly in PvP. The reason is mostly because it's very high risk/return, and action economy is so important as a caster, rolling the dice isn't smart unless it's a group.

I would tend to agree that saves outstrip DC's, and it makes sense as a "design choice." I don't think saves need to be reduced or DC's raised. There are enough builds these spells are useful against to make, say "Weird," a worthy 1 of 3 lvl 9 known spells on a Sorc SM (same goes for having a couple wails slotted on a necro wiz/pm).

If you're looking to rely mostly on DC based spells, you're gonna have a hard time. If you use them in the right way, against the right opponents, you can get great use out of them. The more I think of it, we should stop bifurcating DC Casters from casters, because they are functionally capable of both if built well.
I agree with all of this. All-in DC spells (Wail and Weird are good examples) are a good filter when you have a spare moment breathe, but not 100% to be relied upon.
Red_Wharf wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:19 am
satan wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:16 pm
Lose. The word you are looking fore is lose.

Loose is the opposite of tight.
For. The word you are looking for is "for.”

User avatar
Diegovog
Posts: 496
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:23 pm

Re: Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

Post by Diegovog » Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:57 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:42 pm
Most caster builds require 26+ lvl investment in their primary caster class to be even functional, 18-19 lvl investment to at keast gain a full access to their respectable spell list (18 wiz/sth/sth is hardly a viable build though). It's a very real tradeoff when compared to melee builds - the multiclassing build options for caster builds are very limiting. This also indirectly guarantees their lack of melee presence.

Caster stat is required to gain spellslots and achieve a servicable DC. It usually does not provide many benefits beyond that.
Melee builds get infinite melee attacks and the stats they are primarily investing in improve their AB/AC/HP/dmg (which INT/WIS/CHA = caster stats, do not).
Take a mundane build and a caster build, shave them off of all gear, feats, skills and abilities and pit them against each other - one will beat the other each time every single time. The game on this fundamental level does matter. How is pointing that out disingenuous?

To cover all save types with viable DC based spells a caster needs to invest in at least 2 spell schools (you do not want to target a build's strongest save - it's folly to keep targetting a barbarian with insta kill spells for example). So we're talking at least 6 vs 6 feat investment here. (Many optimized arcanist builds invest in ESF:discipline so they don't die instantly when someone catches them, so there's your hypothetical ESF:spellcraft counterpart).
And even after all that, the burden of the guessing game lies on the caster! - they need to consider all the details regarding the build that they are up against to pick the right spell that expoits their target's weakest save. A quite challenging thing to do especially when facing an unknown character.

The general feat argument is somewhat questionable. Melee classes get bonus feats too, it's just a matter of planing when to take what feat.
Caster builds usually multiclass in their late epic lvls to maximize skill dumps (to gain access to discipline for the most part - just so that we're clear here, caster builds are getting inconvenienced by melee too!), so taking those ESFs and epic spell feats does often require planning on their part too.


Interestingly enough, all that building and gearing for saves isn't really a mandatory requirement as most DC based spells have hard counters available.

Finally, all that gearing for saves aims to target the caster archetype and completely deny and shut down their gimmick. Reverse the roles and casters do not even get the option to gear that way vs melee (or ranged).
You really don't see how you're comparing apples to oranges?

You're comparing that casters get spellslots and warriors have INFINITE ATTACKS! That's seriously so out of place that I don't think anyone is even going to address that argument.

And to call gaining tools as sacrifice is a silly attempt to make it look like such mages are obligated to take them and lose in every other aspect when in fact it's simply empowering and more options. And do I need to remind that wizards get an insane number of bonus feat to invest in such foci? I almost feel like you're going to complain that fighters get a feat every 2 lvls but arcanists don't, therefore arcanists are objectively worse. Apples and oranges.

User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

Post by -XXX- » Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:17 pm

Diegovog wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:57 pm
You're comparing that casters get spellslots and warriors have INFINITE ATTACKS! That's seriously so out of place that I don't think anyone is even going to address that argument.
How? Why? (...or am I simply supposed to accept that I'm wrong just because you said so?)

One's the primary offensive means of one archetype, the other is the primary offensive means of the other archetype. Limiting one without limiting the other seems like an arbitrary game design bleeding over from D&D (like, dunno... DC based "do nothing or win" spells for example?).
And that's without delving too deep into the matter. Another interesting question would be the possibility of 10 APR vs 1 spell per round. Opinions on that aside, the disproportion here is quite palpable. I would be interested in reading the justification for that.

User avatar
Ork
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

Post by Ork » Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:33 pm

I'd be fine attaching AC to spells. Have to hit that 70+ AC to IGMS. What a shame that mages are 1/2 BAB.

User avatar
TroubledWaters
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:10 pm

Re: Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

Post by TroubledWaters » Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:57 pm

It is true that warriors get infinite attacks while casters only get a finite number per rest. That is unfair.

I suggest we attach a rest malus per enemy killed, or per every round your character spends attacking. Perhaps one round of attacking = 0.5% rest lost.

Now everyone would have to rest up to fight!

User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

Post by -XXX- » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:36 pm

Ork wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:33 pm
I'd be fine attaching AC to spells. Have to hit that 70+ AC to IGMS. What a shame that mages are 1/2 BAB.
I guess that an AC pillow fort is really needed against a spell that removes a heal potion from the target's inventory.

If my argument of infinite attacks vs finite spellslots had been so flawed, we wouldn't have any True Flamers. Yet here they are and I don't see them dominating the PvP meta...

Mister Badhorse
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:19 am

Re: Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

Post by Mister Badhorse » Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:00 am

It never fails to amaze me how much vitriol this topic inspires.

The only real problem I have with the current save meta is the number of creatures who have seemingly randomly hyper inflated saves, I assume as a leftover from a time when infinite casting was common.

User avatar
Flower Power
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:02 am

Re: Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

Post by Flower Power » Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:57 pm

I guess that on Arelith, much like in Pen & Paper, if you're a caster whose thrown a spell out that requires the enemy to roll a die, you've already failed at your role.
what would fred rogers do?

User avatar
Hazard
Posts: 1866
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 am

Re: Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

Post by Hazard » Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:44 am

I'm going to board up my windows and doors before I say this.


... I really love save or die spells.

AstralUniverse
Posts: 2723
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:54 pm

Re: Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:37 am

Hazard wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:44 am
I'm going to board up my windows and doors before I say this.


... I really love save or die spells.
The only reason (i'm pretty sure) that you love them is because you understand that they are bad in high skill pvp niche situations but pretty useful in pve and against the average Arelithian player but still not overpowered against them either. No need to put on blast doors mate.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


User avatar
Hazard
Posts: 1866
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 am

Re: Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

Post by Hazard » Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:45 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:37 am
Hazard wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:44 am
I'm going to board up my windows and doors before I say this.


... I really love save or die spells.
The only reason (i'm pretty sure) that you love them is because you understand that they are bad in high skill pvp niche situations but pretty useful in pve and against the average Arelithian player. No need to put on blast doors mate.
No. I think they're thematically great. They make casters feel like dangerous opponents, in theory, which fun when I am playing a mundane or a caster both. The knowledge that with a single spell a caster could end you, or you could end someone is very ingrained into the fantasy of playing a caster.

User avatar
MissEvelyn
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 1584
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:43 pm

Re: Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

Post by MissEvelyn » Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:55 am

Hazard wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:45 am
AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:37 am
Hazard wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:44 am
I'm going to board up my windows and doors before I say this.


... I really love save or die spells.
The only reason (i'm pretty sure) that you love them is because you understand that they are bad in high skill pvp niche situations but pretty useful in pve and against the average Arelithian player. No need to put on blast doors mate.
No. I think they're thematically great. They make casters feel like dangerous opponents, in theory, which fun when I am playing a mundane or a caster both. The knowledge that with a single spell a caster could end you, or you could end someone is very ingrained into the fantasy of playing a caster.
This is true. We all remember how we stared in awe while Jon Irenicus decimated a dozen mages with just save or die spells.


Haroshia
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:15 am

Re: Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

Post by Haroshia » Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:56 pm

Hazard wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:45 am
AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:37 am
Hazard wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:44 am
I'm going to board up my windows and doors before I say this.


... I really love save or die spells.
The only reason (i'm pretty sure) that you love them is because you understand that they are bad in high skill pvp niche situations but pretty useful in pve and against the average Arelithian player. No need to put on blast doors mate.
No. I think they're thematically great. They make casters feel like dangerous opponents, in theory, which fun when I am playing a mundane or a caster both. The knowledge that with a single spell a caster could end you, or you could end someone is very ingrained into the fantasy of playing a caster.
Yeah not fun in practice if you aren't the caster.
Tove Auburnridge

User avatar
Watchful Glare
Posts: 304
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:55 pm

Re: Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

Post by Watchful Glare » Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:18 pm

DangerDolphin wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:44 pm
@LovelyLightningWitch You have an interesting point to bring up, but this really isn't the thread for it. As developers we try to balance based on min/max pvp builds because they're the worst case scenario - if we ignored them and assumed everyone used a 'balanced RP build' then someone would inevitably take advantage of that with a min/max build and cause some very unfair PvP situations, in which people with the 'balanced RP builds' would be flattened.

With regard to DC spells, we're not happy with them where they are now, but we are fine with it because the alternative is dying instantly, or being stunned/held for so long that you couldn't possibly survive it.

Much like scrying, DC spells would be overpowered if not for accessible hard counters and saves. There's two solutions I can see to this: one is remove the 'I win' nature of failing a save on these spells, and adjust saves to be more difficult again (For instance making hold person only last 1 or 2 rounds). The other is to introduce partial failures as OP mentioned, where you suffer a minor effect for barely making the DC.

If you have better ideas than this, or want to tell me why the above solutions suck, feel free. If you're just here to argue for why your wizard should get higher DCs to crush people with, we're probably not going to listen.
This seems like the most sensible and reasonable solution.

If one feels like getting apocalyptic, and getting a shotgun pointed at you by a Dev, that +: Make all classes have the same saves. Remove Unisaves from items, trade them for +1 specific. Raise the DCs.

It is now rock paper scissors now. It being +1 specific and tied to items means you can swap them out between individual fights, reducing the predictability element against the same opponent if you've faced them before. And failing at one doesn't have to mean instant death.
Last edited by Watchful Glare on Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Biz here was a constant subliminal hum, and death the accepted punishment for laziness, carelessness, lack of grace, the failure to heed the demands of an intricate protocol.

User avatar
Ork
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

Post by Ork » Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:20 pm

I don't know about you, but rock-paper-scissors is a really boring game.

User avatar
Watchful Glare
Posts: 304
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:55 pm

Re: Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

Post by Watchful Glare » Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:22 pm

Ork wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:20 pm
I don't know about you, but rock-paper-scissors is a really boring game.
It really is if you choose Bomb every round.
Biz here was a constant subliminal hum, and death the accepted punishment for laziness, carelessness, lack of grace, the failure to heed the demands of an intricate protocol.

User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

Post by -XXX- » Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:13 pm

Ork wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:20 pm
I don't know about you, but rock-paper-scissors is a really boring game.
Interestingly enough, it also happens to be the quintessential online multiplayer experience.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

User avatar
Hazard
Posts: 1866
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 am

Re: Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

Post by Hazard » Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:09 pm

Haroshia wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:56 pm
Hazard wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:45 am
AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:37 am


The only reason (i'm pretty sure) that you love them is because you understand that they are bad in high skill pvp niche situations but pretty useful in pve and against the average Arelithian player. No need to put on blast doors mate.
No. I think they're thematically great. They make casters feel like dangerous opponents, in theory, which fun when I am playing a mundane or a caster both. The knowledge that with a single spell a caster could end you, or you could end someone is very ingrained into the fantasy of playing a caster.
Yeah not fun in practice if you aren't the caster.
It is for me. That's what I'm saying :P
I'm not the caster. I enjoy it!

Nitro
Posts: 2800
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:04 pm

Re: Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

Post by Nitro » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:05 am

-XXX- wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:13 pm
Ork wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:20 pm
I don't know about you, but rock-paper-scissors is a really boring game.
Interestingly enough, it also happens to be the quintessential online multiplayer experience.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w
I'd hardly call it quintessential. It's just a trade of gameplay skill for gameplay knowledge when you break it down. Rock-paper-scissors remove a certain amount of skill from the equation by giving rock the tools necessary to beat scissors. Starcraft is a good example of rock-paper-scissors mechanics done well, where none of the three races outright counter each other, but all have several units that are strong against others units but weak to others, an additional several layers of options that increase the depth of strategy rather than just saying "zerg beats terran, terran beats protoss, protoss beats zerg" which would be abysmal game design.

AstralUniverse
Posts: 2723
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:54 pm

Re: Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:30 am

This game could be as perfectly balanced as Starcraft 1. Rock-paper-scissors is not a bad thing when the game is complex. Starcraft is a game with different stages because there's tech and when in one stage of the game your race counters the other race better, if they build the right units and endure it they gain momentum for the next 'tech' of units. Arelith moved away from Rock-paper-scissors style with updates like Lore change and the new classes and paths that's being added. Is it bad? Not necessarily, but it's definitely moving away further and further from Rock-paper-scissors and more towards League of legends and 'perfect imbalance' style, for better or worse.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

Post by -XXX- » Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:22 am

Perfect imbalance (that "boring" rock-paper-scissors) and variance (you know... all the dice rolls) serve in games to remove the skill gap between skill oriented players and more casually minded ones.

Remove it and you'll end up with ...chess. Chess is a great game, but one of its downsides is that the better chess player beats the less skilled opponent each time every single time. This can result in the casual player losing interest in the game before long.


The team's activity over the past 4 years hints at a strong emphasis on skill over variance (especially with regards to PvP) and there's been a very tangible power creep both in new custom classes and gear. While I understand that this serves mainly to incentivize players into character rotation, but there's a certain threshold to the speed with which players can sift through new characters while still sustaining RP in a meaningful way.

Furthermore there's a wealth of evidence from other games (tabletop, online - just games in general) that the above is a detrimental game design direction that eventually results in the loss of the game's audience.

While losing to a DC based spell can be very tilting, the mechanic is also a double edged sword (if your target makes the save, you rarely recover from the loss of tempo and usually get roflstomped shortly after).
Furthermore, it is a high variance mechanic that serves to remove the difference of skill/gear/build factors. It might seem counter-intuitive to allow a casual player to beat a supperior opponent in this fashion, but elements like these are important to keep that player engaged and interested in the game.

User avatar
Hazard
Posts: 1866
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 am

Re: Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

Post by Hazard » Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:34 am

There's another point that comes to my mind whenever this comes up that I rarely see discussed and that's the roleplaying aspect.
How much /should/ player skill matter when we aren't supposed to be playing as ourselves, but roleplaying as characters. If little Jimmy's warrior is 'a great warrior' but he's not particularly good at keeping up with the moba-style of the game, does that mean his characters will only ever be as weak/powerful as he is willing to invest time into learning to PvP competitively?

Don't get me wrong I love skill based games. Mordhau and Starcraft and AOE2 are some of my biggest addictions outside of NWN, but when I come to roleplaying servers, playerskill and rotating PVP meta is one of the farthest things from what I have in mind to expect to have to deal with.

User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

Post by -XXX- » Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:02 am

Hazard wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:34 am
If little Jimmy's warrior is 'a great warrior' but he's not particularly good at keeping up with the moba-style of the game, does that mean his characters will only ever be as weak/powerful as he is willing to invest time into learning to PvP competitively?
How's that any different from the current situation? To become a great warrior Jimmy needs to:
1) research and copy one of the S-tier builds
2) farm a mountain of gp or join one of the well-established guilds in order to obtain optimized gear
3) still needs to research all the other high-tier builds and actually invest time into learning to PvP competitively

What I'm saying here is that a big chunk of the player base does treat the game with a very moba-style mindset already - always opting for the fastest, bestest, most optimized.
Power creep supplants perfect imbalance on Arelith when the new and shiny becomes the fastest, bestest, most optimized.

User avatar
Hazard
Posts: 1866
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 am

Re: Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

Post by Hazard » Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:07 am

-XXX- wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:02 am
Hazard wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:34 am
If little Jimmy's warrior is 'a great warrior' but he's not particularly good at keeping up with the moba-style of the game, does that mean his characters will only ever be as weak/powerful as he is willing to invest time into learning to PvP competitively?
How's that any different from the current situation? To become a great warrior Jimmy needs to:
1) research and copy one of the S-tier builds
2) farm a mountain of gp or join one of the well-established guilds in order to obtain optimized gear
3) still needs to research all the other high-tier builds and actually invest time into learning to PvP competitively

What I'm saying here is that a big chunk of the player base does treat the game with a very moba-style mindset already - always opting for the fastest, bestest, most optimized.
Power creep supplants perfect imbalance on Arelith when the new and shiny becomes the fastest, bestest, most optimized.
Well, yeah. I agree.

User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

Post by -XXX- » Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:14 am

Also, there's one important bit that I sort of omitted there - the title of a great warrior feels like something that should be earned - both in an RP environment as much as in a moba-style one.

Otherwise, what's stopping everyone from just "being a great warrior"? If everyone becomes a great warrior, noone gets to be...

Post Reply