Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

[Talexis]

As it stands players that are creating characters that specialize in casting spells that have DCs to have an effect are being made useless within PVP combat since players can just multiclass or dip a few levels in order to get saves within the 40s. This is a huge issue because it essentially causes all mages that not only use up all their feat points to reach a higher DC for their spells but also dump all their stat points, sacrificing things from all the other stats in hopes to be able to cast spells that have some success in their effects becoming useless because not only will they never land a DC that will beat these saves in the one spell, they can't even switch spells to something of a different save since the players with these high saves don't have just 1 save that is super high, in most cases it is all three saves that will be around an equal level.

Let me put it this way, a caster that dumps all their stats into their casting stat to get 22 in that stat, then spends 3 feats to have a +6 from an Epic Spell Focus, plus putting all 7 of their leveling stats into their casting stat, plus getting an Epic Stat feat and +12 in their casting stat from their soft cap will only get a 41 DC on a 9th level spell. Many players are walking around with 40s in their saves meaning the caster that just dedicated at least 4 feats and all their stats to specialize in these spells with these neat effects are the equivalent of any caster that didn't sacrifice all this and is just rolling for 1s with their casts.

My suggestion is or rather my suggestions are as follows:

1) Have it so if someone rolls a save that is within 5 of the DC of the spell cast that it becomes a partial save and depending on the spell it also includes damage like a 20d6. The idea is yes you resisted that ninth level death spell, but it still took something out of you and you felt it.

2) Increase the amount that Epic Spell Focus gives you towards your DC. Yes normal Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus still give the same amount but once you go Epic instead of another +2 make it a +4 or even a +5 (So in total you would get +8 or +9 instead of the +6 to your DCs). This way when a DC caster is facing up against someone with high saves in the 40s instead of rolling for 1s they can at least have a little gap where if the target rolls something around 1 to 5 there is still a chance that the spell will succeed.

[Diegovog]

The only thing that you have to sacrifice in order to get higher DC is some possible HP you're giving up on not going CON but your main spellcasting attribute instead. Most of the spell foci you would go regardless of bonus DC (save enchantment and in some cases illusion and necro). People can reliably reach DCs of 42 right now.
The majority of builds have to give up a lot in order to reach a reasonable saving throws; on feats to strengthen weak STs, on fortunes in order to gear (and wouldn't we all dread if rings of resistance+2 rise in price like rings of hiding?), giving up skills on gear, giving up other stats in gear and going dip classes such as paladin/cot/bg just to be viable.

Nowadays it's riskier to give up spellcraft than discipline. Freedom of movement is breachable which means it's fairly easy to disable low reflex/will builds and death ward is never too safe from abjurative 30wildmage.

And the most compelling argument of all: Failing a saving throw and automatically losing a fight is not fun at all. Unreasonably high DC is as fun as devastating critical.

[garrbear758]

The problem is that a lot of dc spells are save or effectively / sometimes literally die. This isn’t fun gameplay. Fixing this would require rewriting almost every single spell script, and there are a lot of spells, not to mention the balance issues that would crop up and have to be resolved.

[AstralUniverse]

I will just say that while players build around high saves, it takes them time to actually gear all that stuff. Some of our top tier builds these days have gearing which costs several milions (talking about a set of soft 5%s with masterwork runes) and the character very often just hasnt reached that point.

In my time playing a sorcerer for an entire year, I won pvps mostly with DC spells (even though, I had different tactics at ready).

Dont speculate too much. Just play the game. Casters are really strong and DC spells are just the cream on top of the cake anyway.

[Curve]

I will just say that while players build around high saves, it takes them time to actually gear all that stuff. Some of our top tier builds these days have gearing which costs several milions (talking about a set of soft 5%s with masterwork runes) and the character very often just hasnt reached that point.

This is a problem. For a long time people did not chase 5% enchantments like they do now. The masterwork runes basically beg to be applied to hard 5% enchantments. If players on Arelith can do something they will do it. Can it take some time? Yes, but eventually they get it done and you have many of those characters running around with their psycho saves on their psycho stat builds. It destroys the ability to balance when the gap between characters is so great. The enchanting system in the post UMD world (where you can ignore a umd/tumble class and specialize with all three classes, where Arelith used to benefit generalization in building) is too strong. I don't really know if there is a solution to correct this that would not make players freak out like a toddler with an ear ache, but I know that the team should check themselves before putting in any more powerful items, or enchanting, or builds.

[AstralUniverse]

I will just say that while players build around high saves, it takes them time to actually gear all that stuff. Some of our top tier builds these days have gearing which costs several milions (talking about a set of soft 5%s with masterwork runes) and the character very often just hasnt reached that point.

This is a problem. For a long time people did not chase 5% enchantments like they do now. The masterwork runes basically beg to be applied to hard 5% enchantments. If players on Arelith can do something they will do it. Can it take some time? Yes, but eventually they get it done and you have many of those characters running around with their psycho saves on their psycho stat builds. It destroys the ability to balance when the gap between characters is so great. The enchanting system in the post UMD world (where you can ignore a umd/tumble class and specialize with all three classes, where Arelith used to benefit generalization in building) is too strong. I don't really know if there is a solution to correct this that would not make players freak out like a toddler with an ear ache, but I know that the team should check themselves before putting in any more powerful items, or enchanting, or builds.

It's not so much of a problem since we arent balancing the server around unoptimized builds played by average skilled players. So rest assured 'balance' is safe and sound (aka, DC spells being not that good in such playing fields) but casters are still good, and DC spells are still useful outside of that specific paradigm for the reasons I stated above. I also dont think the gap between characters is that big. You have to consider that this game needs gold sinks for high lvl characters so there will always be a gap, unless you remove the reward for time and effort investment, which you shouldnt. Over all, you can really see how optimizing one aspect of the mechanics can hurt another aspect so finding different middle grounds for each case is what eventually makes a game good.

[Inordinate]

This is a problem. For a long time people did not chase 5% enchantments like they do now. The masterwork runes basically beg to be applied to hard 5% enchantments. If players on Arelith can do something they will do it. Can it take some time? Yes, but eventually they get it done and you have many of those characters running around with their psycho saves on their psycho stat builds. It destroys the ability to balance when the gap between characters is so great.

The amount of people who do not chase the 5% dopamine hit for the best optimal gear overwhelmingly outclasses the number of people who do. Many people don't even apply defensive essences let alone optimize their gear.

[Drowboy]

I mean, sure. Massively cut the power of all summons both in pve and pvp first though. And rework all spells so an L9 save or whatever doesn't take you out of any fight immediately.

[Archnon]

This is a problem. For a long time people did not chase 5% enchantments like they do now. The masterwork runes basically beg to be applied to hard 5% enchantments. If players on Arelith can do something they will do it. Can it take some time? Yes, but eventually they get it done and you have many of those characters running around with their psycho saves on their psycho stat builds. It destroys the ability to balance when the gap between characters is so great.

The amount of people who do not chase the 5% dopamine hit for the best optimal gear overwhelmingly outclasses the number of people who do. Many people don't even apply defensive essences let alone optimize their gear.

I don't think that this simple fact can be stressed enough. Sure, there are some pvp minded players always looking for a fight but most of the server is here for RP and action is limited to PvE. Casters will often be successful with DC spells on this group. These players often know their builds aren't 'optimized' and will fight only when the RP demands and do so knowing the RP consequences are serious.

[Haroshia]

The problem is that a lot of dc spells are save or effectively / sometimes literally die. This isn’t fun gameplay. Fixing this would require rewriting almost every single spell script, and there are a lot of spells, not to mention the balance issues that would crop up and have to be resolved.

Want to stress this. There's a reason newer editions of D&D have gotten rid of save or die effects almost entirely. The binary and instant nature of it is extremely unfun. 3.0 is kinda built from the ground up with them in mind, so if you're going to have PvP you have to expect people to build around them.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

The problem is that a lot of dc spells are save or effectively / sometimes literally die. This isn’t fun gameplay. Fixing this would require rewriting almost every single spell script, and there are a lot of spells, not to mention the balance issues that would crop up and have to be resolved.

I'm sure you are tired of saying this every few months, and no doubt its a strong argument. But I have to wonder if just making sure there is counter play to all of the spells as is isn't a more game within a game fun way of playing then just eliminating 85% of the spells from the meta. That doesn't seem to be nearly as hard of a task as the one you describe, and can probably be ready to go in a week or two and fully balanced after a month of game play.

Add on: Mind you I think saves should come close to where they are now, so save or die spells are still high risk to cast. I would just like to see something more along the lines of 10-15% instead of 5%.

[Spriggan Bride]

I'm sure you are tired of saying this every few months, and no doubt its a strong argument. But I have to wonder if just making sure there is counter play to all of the spells as is isn't a more game within a game fun way of playing then just eliminating 85% of the spells from the meta. That doesn't seem to be nearly as hard of a task as the one you describe, and can probably be ready to go in a week or two and fully balanced after a month of game play.

Spells could have different effects in PVE and PVP. Long term disables aren't fun-- getting held for 1 round/level by another PC means you're dead. Instant death is about as unsatisfying an experience as you can get. Those are fine against monsters because they're just punching bags and usually outnumber you so taking out 1 means you're still fending off 10 more, but there's no PVP situation where they can reliably work.

So... Drastically shorten the time spells last in PVP, like no more than 2 or 3 rounds, and save-or-die becomes a disabler too maybe with debuff and lingering effects to reflect wracking pain. Then make them work more often or have a lesser effect (1/2 round stun, maybe) on a failed save or something. I think something along these lines would be the only way to salvage most of the spells in the game in PVP, if that was something anyone really wanted.

[Papi J]

I played a DC casting wizard for a long time.

Saves are absolutely fine as they are.

As Garr mentioned, a lot of the spells in the game are a death sentence if you fail the save, and, “everyone who div dips has 40+ saves”, is simply a false statement. There is usually always 1-2 weak saves on any build, except perhaps div/CoT builds or deep CoT.. but most div dips still struggle in some areas before getting a bunch of 5% gear. Another issue of every spell being a death sentence is that the %’s look different depending if you are giving or receiving DC spells:

“Oh man, only a 15% chance for that guy to die? This spell sucks!”
“Wow, he can kill me instantly 15% of the time? This is bull, I hate DC meta!”

And this is also disregarding the fact you have a plethora of ways to kill someone that does not involve saving throws. If you are relying entirely on DC spells, you should look to evolve your strategy. My DMs are open if you want specifics on mage play tactics.

[Papi J]

Let me put it this way, a caster that dumps all their stats into their casting stat to get 22 in that stat, then spends 3 feats to have a +6 from an Epic Spell Focus, plus putting all 7 of their leveling stats into their casting stat, plus getting an Epic Stat feat and +12 in their casting stat from their soft cap will only get a 41 DC on a 9th level spell.

My suggestion is or rather my suggestions are as follows:
2) Increase the amount that Epic Spell Focus gives you towards your DC. Yes normal Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus still give the same amount but once you go Epic instead of another +2 make it a +4 or even a +5 (So in total you would get +8 or +9 instead of the +6 to your DCs). This way when a DC caster is facing up against someone with high saves in the 40s instead of rolling for 1s they can at least have a little gap where if the target rolls something around 1 to 5 there is still a chance that the spell will succeed.

Also ....What. 41 DC is BAD? And you want a HIGHER DC for spells? Good grief.

[Curve]

The amount of people who do not chase the 5% dopamine hit for the best optimal gear overwhelmingly outclasses the number of people who do. Many people don't even apply defensive essences let alone optimize their gear.

The problems are not exclusive to hard 5% + masterwork runes even though those are the extreme cases. Lesser runes are just as impactful on the effectiveness of DC based spells and abilities, adding +1 to tighten up weak saves or turn mediocre saves into 5% only fails.

Beyond that, the idea that only a small group of players is doing this is anecdotal but if true it means that removing the ability to do so through some nerf to the enchanting system will only affect that small percentage of players.

I don't think that this simple fact can be stressed enough. Sure, there are some pvp minded players always looking for a fight but most of the server is here for RP and action is limited to PvE. Casters will often be successful with DC spells on this group. These players often know their builds aren't 'optimized' and will fight only when the RP demands and do so knowing the RP consequences are serious.

I'll drop a quote from another thread that is applicable here,

Protection healer is still extremely good (down from brokenly op) and quite bluntly we can’t balance the server around people who aren’t playing it well.

While I agree that save or die spells are not fun, the save bloat on the server is out of control. When was the last time DCs were given a boost? Have they ever been given a boost? Before Runes and before Artefacts were a thing mages were not the end all be all of Arelith PvP and saves were much lower. What was true is that people made sacrifices in their builds to get Spellcraft and to gear for it. Now, with the ever increasingly strong enchantments players do not need to make accommodations in their builds, they just have to grind more and more.

[Aniel]

DC spells fundamentally have to be bad otherwise they would be overpowered.

There is no middle ground with them.

Saves are perfectly fine, and if anything maybe should be easier to get.

In order to balance DCs and saves, as Garr said, every single spell with a DC would need to be updated as they're all very poorly designed in the context of player v player interaction.

And as someone else said, honestly, all DC spells are perfectly fine in PvE.

[Archnon]

A fun alternative might be some new spells for Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric/Shaman that function like breaches for saves. In other words, a high level spell that dropped a targets or AOE's saves by X/caster level. Then they might contribute to the action economy in a significant way, which is a serious cost for casters while at the same time creating opportunities for the use of save or devastating effect spells.

I just want to say that I'm not going to say anything about dips and I'm proud of myself for not doing so.

[Papi J]

There is absolutely no need to reduce anyone’s saves. Also, dips are fine. Div has a lot of investment involved.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

This is a problem. For a long time people did not chase 5% enchantments like they do now. The masterwork runes basically beg to be applied to hard 5% enchantments. If players on Arelith can do something they will do it. Can it take some time? Yes, but eventually they get it done and you have many of those characters running around with their psycho saves on their psycho stat builds. It destroys the ability to balance when the gap between characters is so great.

The amount of people who do not chase the 5% dopamine hit for the best optimal gear overwhelmingly outclasses the number of people who do. Many people don't even apply defensive essences let alone optimize their gear.

I don't think that this simple fact can be stressed enough. Sure, there are some pvp minded players always looking for a fight but most of the server is here for RP and action is limited to PvE. Casters will often be successful with DC spells on this group. These players often know their builds aren't 'optimized' and will fight only when the RP demands and do so knowing the RP consequences are serious.

This hits the nail on the head for me in so many ways. I've lamented that there's such a focus on constantly updating balance, like we're a PvP minded MMO. PvP happens- some people have put over a year into their characters, and have all the toys, and had help with their builds- and that's okay.

These are outliers, and their existence is on the end of the bell curve- which attracts a lot of attention when it happens. It unfortunately tends to lean itself to the "this is busted and needs to be fixed right now" sort of attention, which I think is a shame- a year's (or even three months') worth of investment is no small thing to achieve such a thing.

In a more cooperative story-telling environment, which the community at large claims to be in favor of, these things are awesome things that get to happen occasionally, and I don't think the knee-jerk reaction to something at the extreme end of the spectrum existing in the narrative should be to nerf it out of reality every time. I think these things should happen, with a grain of responsibility; when you have the wild-shaped dragon that smacks down fourteen people by themselves, for example, rather than looking in the vacuum of raw numbers, look at what it took to achieve those numbers and that outcome, and give the world a chance to react to it and fix it organically- this could be something as simple as a plot around hunting the dragon, or paying people to do so.

I unfortunately feel the sentiment of nerfing it into the ground typically comes from the result of being on the losing side. In the above anecdotal example, I'm sure the fourteen people felt pretty awful for losing to a single character. By the same token, fourteen people didn't run from a fight where at least twelve or thirteen could've gotten away, regrouped, formed a rescue party if necessary, and lived to fight another day, better prepared and better informed.

Note that I'm not arguing for a dragon-shape revert. I wouldn't waste my breath. I'm using it as an example situation that I believe contributed heavily to the nerfing of a mechanic from an extreme example of what could be achieved in-game; and rather than dealing with the outliers organically through world-response (kingdoms offering a small ransom/lands for slaying a dragon, anyone?) and IC actions, the mechanical capabilities were adjusted downwards, making people have to min-max that much harder to achieve a fraction of its previous potency, should they decide they want to play it.

I'm not saying that there won't ever be people out there who will abuse these extreme ends of the bell curve in ways that are dickishly Not Fun for others- I'm suggesting we have other avenues than changing the server mechanics in response to these people existing on the server- like them not existing on the server- and it's a shame that the people that aren't like that have to dig into a niche that much harder to be effective as a result.

Edit: Oh. Right. On-topic... both of my casters are DC casters. Making DC's work in PvE has never been a problem, unless I'm trying to swing way above my CR while solo (my DC casters can't summon ). If I can't make DC's work in PvP, I have other options- like fleeing and finding someone that can bash their face in, or switching to saveless damage. Against the odd monk/din/guard, I put my head between my knees, and kiss my rock-paper-scissors flaw goodbye.

I think they're fine.

Edit 2: But I haven't played in over a year, so what do I know? Drive those DC's up to 50 for me!

[Ork]

If you're troubled by mechanics discussions, don't join them. You can enjoy the game without an awareness of mechanics. If you can't see the reason for discussing mechanics, bloat posts about how this game is turning into an MMO have 0 place in these threads.

[Flower Power]

Balance in D&D is almost always binary, at least situationally.

Something is either AMAZING, or ineffectual, and there's not a lot of other ways for things to go and still feel satisfying.

Usually, if you have a functional build, you'll run into situations where your build is absolutely fantastic in certain circumstances and absolutely pants in others - and that's fine. Just because your build (assuming it's functional and good) has certain counters, and just because you're finding yourself coming up against them semiregularly, doesn't mean that your build is shit - it just means you're being put in situations where there's counterplay to your specific build.

[-XXX-]

I unfortunately feel the sentiment of nerfing it into the ground typically comes from the result of being on the losing side. In the above anecdotal example, I'm sure the fourteen people felt pretty awful for losing to a single character. By the same token, fourteen people didn't run from a fight where at least twelve or thirteen could've gotten away, regrouped, formed a rescue party if necessary, and lived to fight another day, better prepared and better informed.

I don't think that's entirely accurate or fair. IMO the calls for nerfs usually come whenever players start feeling that they are being shoehorned into unappealing meme builds while needing max lvl + 5% gear before they get to even participate in anything resembling conflict RP.

Surrendering the road to a stronger opponent might seem like a clever idea, but can get very old really fast if it happens too often.

[Edens_Fall]

I generally play a caster build and never had issue with DC's vs PvE. As far as PvP goes there are so many factors that take place such as which side has more numbers, which side attacks first, which side is more warded, etc. That the only time DC really comes into noticeable play is againist death spells. These naturally need to be low as no one wants to fail a save and just die.

I would counter that the real debate is the AB v AC topic, but that's a whole new thread.

[LovelyLightningWitch]

I am honestly confused by this playerbase.

For weeks, we've had a thread about how people dump their charisma stat and not play the consequences of 8 in charisma (or wisdom).

Now, a thread popped up where people ENCOURAGE people to make builds that rely on dump stats. Not even encourage: disparage those who do not!

"Functional build" - is it sensible and healthy for a ROLEPLAYING server to demand players to make builds that are not representative of their character's roleplay if they want to be able to do things? To demand someone, if playing a caster, to be a munchkin and all-in in their caster stat? With 22 int, it's almost guaranteed that you'll have 8 wisdom or 8 charisma or even both.

Why is that encouraged? Why aren't well-rounded stat spreads that actually represent a character's identity encouraged? Why is it that half the server in another topic laments the fact that people don't RP their sheets whereas here people are calling those who don't do dumpstats and unhealthy stat spreads... various names implying incompetence.


Why is it also accepted that mundanes will get a divine class of some sort to boost their saves? I have only primarily interacted with a small subset of the server since joining due to my limited time, but I have barely encountered players who seriously roleplay being a divine champion, heck - many don't even seem to care a lick towards religion and faith! If taking CoT/pal/BG is so encouraged... does this mean that characters that don't care a lick towards gods actually happen to be holy warriors of the highest dedication?

[Quidix]

"Functional build" - is it sensible and healthy for a ROLEPLAYING server to demand players to make builds that are not representative of their character's roleplay if they want to be able to do things? To demand someone, if playing a caster, to be a munchkin and all-in in their caster stat? With 22 int, it's almost guaranteed that you'll have 8 wisdom or 8 charisma or even both.

Surely the same logic applies to all builds, there is always a mechanical 'dumpstat' - it has nothing to do with casters specifically.

What's on your character sheet, which no one else can see, is not what defines good RP.