Feedback on DC casters and saves on the server

[MRFTW]

If DCs go up, saves will go up to match and builds that can't match them or counter play in other ways will be dead in the water.

Upping DCs would most likely just lead to more power creep, sadly.

It seems like the main problem is dark blessing and its mirrors. I play a tank that will become one of the problematic high save characters that are being talked about, but he's not divine and has assuredly put more feat and skill effort into beating high DCs than casters have to put in to get them.

[Papi J]

Why is that encouraged? Why aren't well-rounded stat spreads that actually represent a character's identity encouraged? Why is it that half the server in another topic laments the fact that people don't RP their sheets whereas here people are calling those who don't do dumpstats and unhealthy stat spreads... various names implying incompetence.

Arelith is a roleplaying server that also has a big PvE environment, and comparatively very liberal PvP rules to most other servers. This is also a video game that people play to have fun and relax. If someone wants to put 14 in all of their stats and struggle with everything outside of talking to other people? That’s fine, but there’s no need to hound on people who don’t want to essentially shirk the 50% adventure part of the server and struggle when it comes to fighting another character for the story by having a mechanically bad build.

I agree with you on the divine part though. I always found the holy warrior side of the dips my favorite part.

[Papi J]

It seems like the main problem is dark blessing and its mirrors.

Dark Blessing and Divine Grace are fine. There is a big cost associated with being able to effectively make use of a divine dip, and the saves bonus makes up for having to gear a lot of charisma. Oh, and the fact a lot of divine dips still suffer in 1 or 2 saves areas.

[LovelyLightningWitch]

"Functional build" - is it sensible and healthy for a ROLEPLAYING server to demand players to make builds that are not representative of their character's roleplay if they want to be able to do things? To demand someone, if playing a caster, to be a munchkin and all-in in their caster stat? With 22 int, it's almost guaranteed that you'll have 8 wisdom or 8 charisma or even both.

Surely the same logic applies to all builds, there is always a mechanical 'dumpstat' - it has nothing to do with casters specifically.

What's on your character sheet, which no one else can see, is not what defines good RP.

Roleplaying is not purely a narrativist action. "Campfire-storywriting" is.

Roleplaying considers Simulationist action to be a vital aspect of it.

For simulationism to work, one needs statistical or mechanical basis to justify behaviour or actions.

Just because nobody can see your character sheet does not mean it should not be integral to actions taken in character. Narrativism might ignore it for sake of a "story", but simulationism breaks if people can just ignore statistics.

Why is that encouraged? Why aren't well-rounded stat spreads that actually represent a character's identity encouraged? Why is it that half the server in another topic laments the fact that people don't RP their sheets whereas here people are calling those who don't do dumpstats and unhealthy stat spreads... various names implying incompetence.

Arelith is a roleplaying server that also has a big PvE environment, and comparatively very liberal PvP rules to most other servers. This is also a video game that people play to have fun and relax. If someone wants to put 14 in all of their stats and struggle with everything outside of talking to other people? That’s fine, but there’s no need to hound on people who don’t want to essentially shirk the 50% adventure part of the server and struggle when it comes to fighting another character for the story by having a mechanically bad build.

I agree with you on the divine part though. I always found the holy warrior side of the dips my favorite part.

People wouldn't struggle with stats that support and inform their roleplay if people weren't encouraged to ignore the Simulationist aspect for Gamist aspects. Most servers in fact discourage a Gamist approach to character building either culturally, or through "Play your Sheet" rules. Now, play your sheet can be questionable due to different interpretations (like how I think having 12 or 14 in a stat is significant, whereas others only consider a stat high if it's over 20), but I feel it's still a better spirit than...

"You are required to dump all your points and a major award into a single caster stat and must start with 22 to be remotely viable, even though it means you cannot justify your roleplay by lacking points to split between physical and wis/cha"

Would it not be far better if it was viable to start with 16 in a caster stat (+2 with gifts)? Or in Str, or in dex? Lead to more varied & justified characters? Would it not be better if mundanes could afford to pick their classes due to flavour rather than "this allows me to dump into tumble/spellcraft/umd/lore"?

Like sure, "only you can see it" but I do not think "Only you can see it" is any real argument. You don't need to be rolling your skills and stats to know how they inform your own character's identity.

[Quidix]

By the logic should feats and skill points not also perfectly represent our characters? Are all characters masters of discipline and knowledgeable of lore and aware of spellcraft and nimble enough to tumble?

I think you are also confusing 'viable' with 'optimal', you will be viable even if you don't optimise your stats (i.e. a wizard with 16 int instead of 18 will be viable).

[Papi J]

You do not have to neglect the Simulationist aspect to enjoy the Gamist, but you DO have to essentially ignore the Gamist aspect to go all in on the Simulationist. Seems simple enough to me, most people do both. No matter what, this is a server with high action, roleplaying or not, and people are going to prepare themselves for such.

And, if I am going to be real with you, if you don’t like a roleplaying server with a high action aspect to it... your best bet is to go somewhere else. This is what Arelith was built on, if I recall correctly, and it will not be changing. Not to discourage you, or anything. You can do whatever you want and still have fun, even ignoring mechanics entirely and standing around roleplaying all day. The server has something for literally everyone to do

[Papi J]

I think you are also confusing 'viable' with 'optimal', you will be viable even if you don't optimise your stats (i.e. a wizard with 16 int instead of 18 will be viable).

Also this. I have not once played a perfectly optimal character on this server, everything was tweaked for the RP/character, and I am a massive numbersmonkey.

[Nitro]

Why are you having this discussion here, on a topic about the state of DC saves, rather than the topic about RP'ing the stats on your character sheet that you yourself reference and clearly are talking about, rather than the state of DC saves?

[Papi J]

Why are you having this discussion here, on a topic about the state of DC saves, rather than the topic about RP'ing the stats on your character sheet that you yourself reference and clearly are talking about, rather than the state of DC saves?

Oops.

[-XXX-]

I play a tank that will become one of the problematic high save characters that are being talked about, but he's not divine and has assuredly put more feat and skill effort into beating high DCs than casters have to put in to get them.

The claim above is incorrect and false. Here's why:

Non div melee's effort to reach high saves vs spells:
- taking up to 6 save improving feats
- pouring gp to the basin to enchant their gear with UNI saves
- pouring more gp to the basin to enchant their gear with +2 spellcraft

Caster efforts to reach high DCs on spells:
- taking 26+ levels in a class with mediocre to non-existant survivability in melee
- taking 26+ levels in a class with mediocre to non-existant melee capability
- prime investing in one of the social stats (WIS/CHA/INT) that do not provide any AB/AC/HP/dps synergies (like STR/DEX/CON do)
- taking up to 3 DC improving feats from the desired spell school (per school they are focusing on)
- pouring gp to the basin to improve their primary caster stat

[MRFTW]

It seems like the main problem is dark blessing and its mirrors.

Dark Blessing and Divine Grace are fine. There is a big cost associated with being able to effectively make use of a divine dip, and the saves bonus makes up for having to gear a lot of charisma. Oh, and the fact a lot of divine dips still suffer in 1 or 2 saves areas.

All true, except for notable cases such as sorc/div, for whom a div dip is basically just free stuff. Divine champion getting high reflex saves as well as their +1/2 levels makes it so they can essentially just get +will feats and be pretty well rounded, and perfectly fine without any will feats, most of the time.

Non div melee's effort to reach high saves vs spells:
- taking up to 6 save improving feats
- pouring gp to the basin to enchant their gear with UNI saves
- pouring more gp to the basin to enchant their gear with +2 spellcraft

Caster efforts to reach high DCs on spells:
- taking 26+ levels in a class with mediocre to non-existant survivability in melee
- taking 26+ levels in a class with mediocre to non-existant melee capability
- prime investing in one of the social stats (WIS/CHA/INT) that do not provide any AB/AC/HP/dps synergies (like STR/DEX/CON do)
- taking up to 3 DC improving feats from the desired spell school (per school they are focusing on)
- pouring gp to the basin to improve their primary caster stat

It's certainly a stretch to suggest that "taking 26+ levels" is an effort to reach high DCs. DCs aren't even affected by caster levels. Referring to your main caster stat as "one of the social stats" is also very disingenuous.

Realistically, it's 6 feats (8 if you want to do SF/ESF Spellcraft, but that's a bit goofy tbh) for a mundane, and 3 feats for a caster, per school of magic. It's also worth noting that high DCs come basically as standard with any reasonably viable caster build, which will be taking those spell foci anyway because they're the best choices, whereas non-divine players generally have to invest in these feats on top of their build, unless it's designed around high saves, in which case it will almost certainly have weaknesses elsewhere.

You also forgot to mention that all of the save boosting feats are general feats, whereas most if not all casters get at least some form of bonus feat that allows them to take one or more spell focus. With mundanes this is generally not the case.

[-XXX-]

It's certainly a stretch to suggest that "taking 26+ levels" is an effort to reach high DCs. DCs aren't even affected by caster levels. Referring to your main caster stat as "one of the social stats" is also very disingenuous.

Realistically, it's 6 feats (8 if you want to do SF/ESF Spellcraft, but that's a bit goofy tbh) for a mundane, and 3 feats for a caster, per school of magic. It's also worth noting that high DCs come basically as standard with any reasonably viable caster build, which will be taking those spell foci anyway because they're the best choices.

You also forgot to mention that all of the save boosting feats are general feats, whereas most if not all casters get at least some form of bonus feat that allows them to take one or more spell focus. With mundanes this is generally not the case.

Most caster builds require 26+ lvl investment in their primary caster class to be even functional, 18-19 lvl investment to at keast gain a full access to their respectable spell list (18 wiz/sth/sth is hardly a viable build though). It's a very real tradeoff when compared to melee builds - the multiclassing build options for caster builds are very limiting. This also indirectly guarantees their lack of melee presence.

Caster stat is required to gain spellslots and achieve a servicable DC. It usually does not provide many benefits beyond that.
Melee builds get infinite melee attacks and the stats they are primarily investing in improve their AB/AC/HP/dmg (which INT/WIS/CHA = caster stats, do not).
Take a mundane build and a caster build, shave them off of all gear, feats, skills and abilities and pit them against each other - one will beat the other each time every single time. The game on this fundamental level does matter. How is pointing that out disingenuous?

To cover all save types with viable DC based spells a caster needs to invest in at least 2 spell schools (you do not want to target a build's strongest save - it's folly to keep targetting a barbarian with insta kill spells for example). So we're talking at least 6 vs 6 feat investment here. (Many optimized arcanist builds invest in ESF:discipline so they don't die instantly when someone catches them, so there's your hypothetical ESF:spellcraft counterpart).
And even after all that, the burden of the guessing game lies on the caster! - they need to consider all the details regarding the build that they are up against to pick the right spell that expoits their target's weakest save. A quite challenging thing to do especially when facing an unknown character.

The general feat argument is somewhat questionable. Melee classes get bonus feats too, it's just a matter of planing when to take what feat.
Caster builds usually multiclass in their late epic lvls to maximize skill dumps (to gain access to discipline for the most part - just so that we're clear here, caster builds are getting inconvenienced by melee too!), so taking those ESFs and epic spell feats does often require planning on their part too.


Interestingly enough, all that building and gearing for saves isn't really a mandatory requirement as most DC based spells have hard counters available.

Finally, all that gearing for saves aims to target the caster archetype and completely deny and shut down their gimmick. Reverse the roles and casters do not even get the option to gear that way vs melee (or ranged).

[MRFTW]

We're comparing apples and oranges.

[-XXX-]

We're comparing apples and oranges.

No, you're just refusing to admit that you were wrong

[Ork]

Why does he have to admit he's wrong? What you're arguing about is nonsensical.

[-XXX-]

The claim that more effort is required for a melee build to reach high saves than it is for a caster to reach high DC spells is nonsensical.

Especially after two coders confirmed in this very thread that the DC vs saves game was strongly rigged in favor of saves by design, as having it otherwise would lead to unfun gameplay and fixing it would be too much work.

[Zavandar]

taking feats makes you better at things?

Casters take feats, max casting stat, and bam. They have reached top DC's.

People can maybe take save feats (some builds dont allow for this), optimize pre epic class spread, and gear to have good saves.

idk what is being argued. The "ease" with which things are achieved isnt very important in balancing discussion when you can play a character however long you want and eventually reach your benchmarks

[Tarkus the dog]

Let me put it this way, a caster that dumps all their stats into their casting stat to get 22 in that stat, then spends 3 feats to have a +6 from an Epic Spell Focus, plus putting all 7 of their leveling stats into their casting stat, plus getting an Epic Stat feat and +12 in their casting stat from their soft cap will only get a 41 DC on a 9th level spell.

My suggestion is or rather my suggestions are as follows:
2) Increase the amount that Epic Spell Focus gives you towards your DC. Yes normal Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus still give the same amount but once you go Epic instead of another +2 make it a +4 or even a +5 (So in total you would get +8 or +9 instead of the +6 to your DCs). This way when a DC caster is facing up against someone with high saves in the 40s instead of rolling for 1s they can at least have a little gap where if the target rolls something around 1 to 5 there is still a chance that the spell will succeed.

Also ....What. 41 DC is BAD? And you want a HIGHER DC for spells? Good grief.

[I_Am_King_Midas]

I think what OP is getting at is that its also not fun or good game design to have it where you are intended to fail all DC spells all the time. I think the devs have a good point about it taking a large amount of effort to fix. I think some are dismissing this point a bit too easily though. Its obviously not good game design to make it where even the best casters are intended to fail all of their DC spells. 5e addressed this by removing spells that cause instant death. I think that's part of the problem here. We would have to lower some of the extremes that spells can reach.

[DangerDolphin]

@LovelyLightningWitch You have an interesting point to bring up, but this really isn't the thread for it. As developers we try to balance based on min/max pvp builds because they're the worst case scenario - if we ignored them and assumed everyone used a 'balanced RP build' then someone would inevitably take advantage of that with a min/max build and cause some very unfair PvP situations, in which people with the 'balanced RP builds' would be flattened.

With regard to DC spells, we're not happy with them where they are now, but we are fine with it because the alternative is dying instantly, or being stunned/held for so long that you couldn't possibly survive it.

Much like scrying, DC spells would be overpowered if not for accessible hard counters and saves. There's two solutions I can see to this: one is remove the 'I win' nature of failing a save on these spells, and adjust saves to be more difficult again (For instance making hold person only last 1 or 2 rounds). The other is to introduce partial failures as OP mentioned, where you suffer a minor effect for barely making the DC.

If you have better ideas than this, or want to tell me why the above solutions suck, feel free. If you're just here to argue for why your wizard should get higher DCs to crush people with, we're probably not going to listen.

[Papi J]

I think what OP is getting at is that its also not fun or good game design to have it where you are intended to fail all DC spells all the time. I think the devs have a good point about it taking a large amount of effort to fix. I think some are dismissing this point a bit too easily though. Its obviously not good game design to make it where even the best casters are intended to fail all of their DC spells. 5e addressed this by removing spells that cause instant death. I think that's part of the problem here. We would have to lower some of the extremes that spells can reach.

Casters do not fail their DC spells every time. This is some myth perpetuated by most people’s hate of div dips where they think 3 levels of paladin or blackguards give you 40+ in everything and you are a DC-shirking RP-less God. I will again refer back to my own playtime as a mage, and I only had 39 DC spells at the most.

Saves are in a pretty good place as they are. OP is mostly frustrated they cannot use their favored soul’s entire stock of 9 slots on implosion and win every pvp encounter.

[Curve]

Saves are in a pretty good place as they are. OP is mostly frustrated they cannot use their favored soul’s entire stock of 9 slots on implosion and win every pvp encounter.

This kind of ad hominem attack is not productive to the conversation. People can have opinions that are not based in some corrupted ethics. In fact people playing classes is a good reason for them to make points about those classes. Argue the point not the person.

[Bunnysmack]

A lot of this has been said in one form or another already but: Speaking from the perspective of a player that mostly mains casters, I will say that the saves meta is a bit frustrating, but I do agree that any adjustment to that would either have to make the ensuing CC last less time (Ton of coding, rework of MOST spells required), or have some sort of lesser effect on a successful save (which some spells already do, but to make it more widespread...ton of coding), or make the adjustment to upper-order saves be very slight (HARD to pull off delicately). It's not at a great place for balance (a caster cleric is going to have a hell of a time ever beating a skilled monk or paladin), but any tweaks to make DCs stronger would have to be very slight, or nuanced in a way to scale back the "I win" results of many spells. On the other hand, it should be noted that impotent DC mechanics create the opposite problem as well, considering a weapon master needs all of 6-12 seconds to delete a wizard they charge into, most of which is spent doing so much damage that the wizard will fail pretty much all concentration checks; with no decent means of halting that barrage of face smash, it becomes another the auto-lose situation at about the same speed.

I will say that I hope some of the newer spells in the future have a bit more consideration toward DC mechanics. Sadly, stuff like Maze is all but useless, however, a really cool idea theoretically. Would be nice to see some more variety of useful spells, if/when more get added.

Edit: Realizing Devs deserve positive reinforcement as well, I ALSO want to say that there are also a number of the newer spells that are really fantastic additions, and thank you for all your hard work! Tentacles, ICS, Castigation, etc. are all fantastic, as are a number of the reworks you've done to the vanilla spells.

[Papi J]

I can relate to OP’s frustration and line of thinking. They are correct that all-in save spells are pretty bad for design, but increasing DC’s by 2-3 across the board is insane. At one point I had the same mindset that DC spells were bad because of mystical 3 level dips giving people infinite saves, but I learned that wasn’t true over time as I evolved my strategy to not just be “throw save or dies,” and saw the actual numbers behind div dip saves.

And anyone who says DC spells are unusable in this “saves meta” (whatever that means) probably hasn’t gotten in enough encounters to know that most people just fall dead. There’s also ones that ignore spellcraft, like the tentacle spells, reaching hefty amounts of DC and absolutely annihilating the vast majority of characters. For reference, shadow mage tentacles currently get 38-39 DC fortitude save, no spellcraft bonuses, and it level drains and paralyzes you. All of this isn’t even counting crazy things like 42-43 DC AoE death spells from that subclass. Saves HAVE to be obtainable otherwise these sky-high DCs dominate everyone. If you were to remove a few saves from easy access, or to increase DC’s, it would be very ugly.

[Anomandaris]

I've played multiple shadow mages (wiz & sorc based), a sorcadin and also PC's like rogues that are total murder bait to a good DC caster with awful Will/Fort saves.

First of all a "DC Caster" isn't fully reliant on DC based spells. It's "one" option in the kit. There are plenty of saveless or direct damage spells that a good SM/DC caster will employ against an opponent with or without good saves.

Secondly, the fact that if you encounter a group of 1-x people, and you can, with decent chance, catch one or more of those folks out with say a "Weird" by killing or fearing them (assuming they're not all fully warded), is useful. Even when I had over 40 DC save or die spells, I will admit, I utilized the spells somewhat sparingly in PvP. The reason is mostly because it's very high risk/return, and action economy is so important as a caster, rolling the dice isn't smart unless it's a group.

I would tend to agree that saves outstrip DC's, and it makes sense as a "design choice." I don't think saves need to be reduced or DC's raised. There are enough builds these spells are useful against to make, say "Weird," a worthy 1 of 3 lvl 9 known spells on a Sorc SM (same goes for having a couple wails slotted on a necro wiz/pm).

If you're looking to rely mostly on DC based spells, you're gonna have a hard time. If you use them in the right way, against the right opponents, you can get great use out of them. The more I think of it, we should stop bifurcating DC Casters from casters, because they are functionally capable of both if built well.