Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

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MissEvelyn
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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:52 pm

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 5:08 pm
You can put radial menu spells on your hot bar by right clicking your hot bar and navigating the radial menu.
The issue is, you have to do that every time you level up in your class, because the Radial spells get "replaced" by ones with your new, higher caster level. Which means you go through the process of replacing spells on your hotbar every time you take a level in Cleric.

And besides, our radial menus are already *so* cluttered with so much stuff that it really would be a quality of life change to have spontaneous spells work the same way as they already do for Cure Wounds spells.


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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by TurningLeaf » Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:03 am

Based on latest announcements Warpriest appears to still be a struggle. IMO all it ever needed was two things, the divine power duration buff it already has, and better scaling on divine favor damage.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Kenji » Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:08 am

Warpriest isn't in a struggle, it's in a good spot and will only get better when Planar Conduit gets nerfed. The latest change is mainly for QoL and thematic purposes and is not indicative of the path's mechanical relevance to the current meta.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Kenji » Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:29 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 12:44 pm
What I would love - and I know this is asking a lot - is for the new spontaneous spells to work similar to how the traditional NWN spontaneous spells work. Meaning you just drag them from the Cleric spell list to the hotbar and they automatically become cast as (S) spontaneous spells, similar to how Cure Wounds spells already work.

It would be a quality of life improvement over using the Radial menu, which is already clogged up with so many new things. But, I suspect there was a good reason new spontaneous spells weren't implemented that way in the first place.
This is more of a technical note and response both to self and to other future devs should they decide to take over cleric domain design.

We currently have two approaches to spontaneous casting for vancian spellbooks:
1. NWN’s vanilla approach: dragged from spellbook to the hotbar and automatically spontaneously cast if there are no existing spell slots memorized for that spell.
Pro:
very intuitive and easy to use on the user end
Con:
to make this happen, due to hardcoded nature of its functions, this must be done through .2da edits and will require Hak changes
It is also independent of domains and will apply to the entirety of the class instead of just a specific domain.
Every spell that we want to add for spontaneous casting will need to be manually placed in the .2da, which meant this is best for generic spontaneous spell casts rather than bulk and nuanced spontaneous spellcasting

2. Our current scripted approach (method developed and pioneered by a previous dev, Peppermint) is an NWNX hack and function that adds an dynamic ability to mimic the spell to be spontaneously cast and remove spellslot upon being cast.
Pro:
Doesn’t require .2da edit, can be done entirely through script.
Can be utilized for nuanced and bulk addition of spontaneous spellcasting with ease
Overall a better and easier method on the development end
Con:
inconvenient to use on the player end
Isn’t supported as nicely as the vanilla NWN spontaneous spellcasting do

Discussion:
Method 1 is best done for generic spells that applies to the entirety of the class rather than nuanced conditions based on domains. The latter is best done through method 2 even if at the expense of the player-side convenience.

However, given that method 2 was developed before developers had access to haks in general, we can potentially come up with a hybrid alternative, pending more internal discussion, testing, and feedback.

We first look at the domain spells that are unique to domains and are not offered through general cleric spellbook. Examples are Moon domain’s moonbeam and displacement.

Those spells can then be added for spontaneous casting on the .2da side. For those clerics that do not have access to the spells, they should not be able to spontaneously cast them. For those that took moon domain and has access to the spell, they can spontaneously cast the spell, and therefore it is easier on the user end. This will require further testing, of course.

We can manually do this for a handful of unique domain spells, but we will then face problems of inconsistent user-end access to these spontaneous spells where some can do this and some spells can’t.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by MissEvelyn » Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:28 am

The new (in the near future) system sounds really exciting, and I'm looking forward to try it out once it's ready 😊


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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Stop. Ninja Time » Sun Jun 19, 2022 3:44 am

Kenji wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:41 am
Next set of Domain-specific changes
Cleric Domains
==============

[10][Air]
* Domain Power: Casts Horizikaul's boom, replenishes every 1 round
Could this and defeaning clang be changed to a 3 second cooldown? As it is, it takes 3 seconds to cast and -then- goes on cooldown for 6 seconds, meaning you can only use it once every other round.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Ork » Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:15 am

Might want to check the domain DCs, Kenji. Specifically, earth domain on an evang cleric.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Kenji » Sun Jun 19, 2022 6:23 am

Ork wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:15 am
Might want to check the domain DCs, Kenji. Specifically, earth domain on an evang cleric.
A couple of domain-related fixes are already in the pipeline, both DC and CL scaling for domain powers is one of the fixes waiting to be merged for live servers.
Stop. Ninja Time wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 3:44 am
Kenji wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:41 am
Next set of Domain-specific changes
Cleric Domains
==============

[10][Air]
* Domain Power: Casts Horizikaul's boom, replenishes every 1 round
Could this and defeaning clang be changed to a 3 second cooldown? As it is, it takes 3 seconds to cast and -then- goes on cooldown for 6 seconds, meaning you can only use it once every other round.
I've removed the cooldown altogether so it can be spammed like an infinicast.

That begs the question, what separates Horizikaul's Boom from the usual Cantrips that max out at around the same dmg at lvl30?

Damage scaling for Horizikaul's Boom maxes out at the 15th level of the caster, whereas the cantrip requires 27 levels of the caster class in order to be on par. So it is now mainly a QoL (and slightly more advantageous being an lvl1 spell over an lvl0 one, if that matters at all) domain power for pre-epic clerics who took the domain.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Exordius » Sun Jun 19, 2022 6:30 am

A couple of domain-related fixes are already in the pipeline, both DC and CL scaling for domain powers is one of the fixes waiting to be merged for live servers.
What about the domain spells?, most of them are currently at 10 dc?

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Kenji » Sun Jun 19, 2022 6:34 am

Exordius wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 6:30 am
A couple of domain-related fixes are already in the pipeline, both DC and CL scaling for domain powers is one of the fixes waiting to be merged for live servers.
What about the domain spells?, most of them are currently at 10 dc?
That should also be fixed from this coming patch, though if the domain spells are still at 10 DC in a few days, let me know.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Exordius » Sun Jun 19, 2022 6:40 am

Will do.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Kenji » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:26 am

I have merged the Cleric Domain and Path feedback threads into one. With the latest changes, clerics are comfortable in both theme and mechanics.

As we advance, there will only be minor adjustments to existing domains/paths or adding new domains as I move on to other projects. Feel free to voice any opinions, suggestions, concerns, or general feedback on clerics here.

Feel free to go wild on the suggestions for the following:
  • New Domains
  • Domain Powers
  • New Divine Spells
  • New Paths
Go in-depth, not bulk, on these. I'm not just looking for names but mechanics, too

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:43 pm

It would be nice if clerics could get another infinicast damage spell, ideally one that is ranged. Flare would be really nice but it sounds like there's hardcoded issues to giving cantrips to other classes. Reason being is to help people with domains that lack good offensive spell options. It would be a nice PVE quality of life.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Exordius » Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:45 pm

I think Kenji is already working on one, at least that's what he said in the development channel on Discord. Sacred flame, or a variation of it.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Xerah » Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:03 pm

What's the point of +3 to craft mastery for Knowledge and magic? It doesn't add to crafting points or thresholds for dwelmoer, and CM is not used for anything else in the game.
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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:06 pm

Exordius wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:45 pm
I think Kenji is already working on one, at least that's what he said in the development channel on Discord. Sacred flame, or a variation of it.
Oh cool, I didn't know that! Thank you!

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Kaeladin » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:14 pm

Kenji wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:08 am
Warpriest isn't in a struggle, it's in a good spot and will only get better when Planar Conduit gets nerfed. The latest change is mainly for QoL and thematic purposes and is not indicative of the path's mechanical relevance to the current meta.
Kenji, I think warpriest is such an awesome path and I'm looking forward to any further refinements/tweaks you might be considering. I wanted to spitball two (and it's possible they've already come up; if so, I apologize) with some experience having played both the traditional cleric + warpriest variant.

First, general take-away; the class' extended divine powers/favors/warcries are wonderful at higher levels, and the same goes for the cha warpriest build where you're able to gear into/utilize divine synergy to give yourself a big boost in AC/nice damage boost. The addition of additional spell refresh options recently (including deafening clang) was nifty and I'm a fan. However, the early game warpriest experience is pretty tough relative to its other cleric variants; giving up the summon is pretty huge throughout the early-mid game experience, and I feel that the warpriest kit doesn't really start to shine until you get to higher levels when you're able to slot in additional divine favors/divine powers/warcries while still covering your basic needs/wind-up.

I'm a big fan of the refresh on zoo spells especially for early game, as it provides some really great ability to buff yourself + your party that almost no one else can replicate (particularly in a more scarce area like Skal). I am wondering if leaning more into the "divine physical/martial prowess" theme of the class could be considered with one of the two options?

1) Adding divine favor to the "refresh spell pool" list under divine power. This shouldn't affect PvP much as you will already have enough divine favor uptime with the current set-up (at high levels, it's pretty easy to get 12+ minutes of divine favor uptime with just a few spells), but it'd be a REALLY nice PvE boost and especially so for the earlier game when you have much less divine favors/powers casts to work with. Divine favor is pretty unique for the divine non-druids, so it'd be neat to see this being one of the big draws of the path. And...

2) Adding the spell focus: transmutation line (maybe capping out at GSF so that players have to decide if they want to swap a feat from traditional builds to pick up ESF transmutation). This has really nice synergy with their zoo spell refreshes and would also give them a cool niche of being a great stat buffer for self and groups, while also lowering their gear requirements a bit. It could also make that juicy spontaneous aura of vitality really nice and worth using more; even just capping out at GSF means they'd still get respectable durations on their aura of vitality at higher levels.

Just some thoughts after having played through a bit! Thank you so, so much for all the work you've been doing!

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Exordius » Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:02 pm

Here is an idea for the Illusion domain when it finally gets a domain power of its own, give it Weird with a cooldown of either 2-3 minutes.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by TurningLeaf » Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:50 pm

Custom domains, no domain power but you get to pick domain spells. The spells are from either another class book 1 level higher or cleric book 1 level lower. This could be a lot of fun trying to synergize with paths.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Mattamue » Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:21 am

Arcane casting path. A path that essentially allows the wiz/cleric multiclass by just adding a ton of spells to the cleric. Maybe hack in being able to use int for the casting with nwnx if possible.

Weald or woe spell. Chance for a buff or a debuff once per day that lasts all day.

Who is the audience for this post?


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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by msheeler » Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:39 am

Xerah wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:03 pm
What's the point of +3 to craft mastery for Knowledge and magic? It doesn't add to crafting points or thresholds for dwelmoer, and CM is not used for anything else in the game.
To that point why does magic not have +3 to spellcraft instead of craft mastery or lore?

Also some thoughts on the magic domain - Magic Missile and Lesser Missile Storm are no longer 'magic' damage and are force damage instead, perhaps they should be replaced? If they are to be kept, why not include Shield in there?

What is the thought behind putting Silence as a level 8 spell, when it is already a level 2 spell? A higher DC?

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:41 am

Magic missile or missile storm would be nicer to have if the spells weren't so bad. Like I can basically infinicast magic missile with divine power, but it's not worth doing. The new cantrips far outperform it.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Stop. Ninja Time » Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:40 pm

Kenji wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 6:23 am
Ork wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:15 am
Might want to check the domain DCs, Kenji. Specifically, earth domain on an evang cleric.
A couple of domain-related fixes are already in the pipeline, both DC and CL scaling for domain powers is one of the fixes waiting to be merged for live servers.
Stop. Ninja Time wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 3:44 am
Kenji wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:41 am
Next set of Domain-specific changes
Could this and defeaning clang be changed to a 3 second cooldown? As it is, it takes 3 seconds to cast and -then- goes on cooldown for 6 seconds, meaning you can only use it once every other round.
I've removed the cooldown altogether so it can be spammed like an infinicast.

That begs the question, what separates Horizikaul's Boom from the usual Cantrips that max out at around the same dmg at lvl30?

Damage scaling for Horizikaul's Boom maxes out at the 15th level of the caster, whereas the cantrip requires 27 levels of the caster class in order to be on par. So it is now mainly a QoL (and slightly more advantageous being an lvl1 spell over an lvl0 one, if that matters at all) domain power for pre-epic clerics who took the domain.
Thanks Kenji!

Though as the only damage cantrip that clerics get is inflict minor wounds currently; so this gives air domain a very helpful ranged infinite cast spell.

Since you say it's a QoL for pre-epic clerics, are there ranged cantrips in the pipeline?

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Exordius » Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:43 pm

are there ranged cantrips in the pipeline?
Said he is making a sacred flame type cantrip on the discord.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:04 pm

Exordius wrote:
Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:43 pm
are there ranged cantrips in the pipeline?
Said he is making a sacred flame type cantrip on the discord.
That is going to be so amazing 😊


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