Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Spriggan Bride » Fri Apr 15, 2022 7:13 am

Quidix wrote:
Thu Apr 14, 2022 8:07 am
A small question, is Evangelist's "+2 DC on Enchantment and Mind-Affecting spells" intended to work for all mind-affecting spells or only enchantment? At the moment it is only enchantment, and I wasn't sure if this is a feature of bug.
Curious about this too as I took the path on an illusionist but doesn't look like it's applying to illusion spells (didn't extensively test every spell)

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Aren » Fri Apr 15, 2022 7:38 am

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 3:47 am
The idea for divine power is very interesting, I'd like to play around with that. It makes the path features a lot easier to use. I'm not sure I'd use divine favor, even if it lasted an hour. Spell penetration isn't really that interesting, there's more useful things I could do with that spell slot.
I agree. I would rather see divine favour slightly increase the chance for spell-refresh.

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Good Character » Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:03 pm

I might be the unpopular opinion here, but the warpriest summoning addition draws away some from its potential theme (invoking 'avatars' vs. being an avatar yourself) and appears to only serve a (very) minor early game role as likely individuals will shy away from Conjuration foci investment if they don't get the important late game summons.

Not sure what to add in its replacement, but will give it some more thought.

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Distant Relation » Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:41 pm

I like the direction of the proposed changes to the caster paths. I especially like the splitting of healer and defiler. The longer duration on the 'spin up' buffs will make them much more usable at least in theory, and the extra bonus hp for healer path helps it stand out from just taking Cloister + Healing domain.

On Warpriest, one potential design direction is to take inspiration from the Warpriest prestige class from Complete Divine. That Warpriest has features that center around being an 'inspiring leader', and has several aoe buffs for the party and even a version of what would be Respite in Arelith.

I'd avoid adding AB bonuses just to not contribute to the overall AB bloat, but you could add side bonuses like bonus saves, temp hp, short-lived immunities, etc to spells like Aid, Bless and Prayer, to pile on the 'fervently chanting priest charging into battle heedless of danger' flavor that a warpriest invokes.

Something along those lines, perhaps.

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Good Character » Fri Apr 15, 2022 3:52 pm

Some potential warpriest ideas (from the mind of someone who couldn't code to save his life).

1. Add your current Wisdom soft modifier (or a fraction of it like a 1/2 or 1/4) to your divine smite damage roll.

2. Extra Smiting as a free feat (though, admittedly this isn't that important since you have the feats to slot this already).

3. Make the path even more thematic to their zealous nature; make it that it requires using a bludgeon-like weapon (e.g. mace, warhammer, morningstar, etc.) to mimic destroying idols of other gods. (The below are not subject to all being added, but just specific to being a bludgeon weapon).
a. While Divine Favor is active, threat range is extended by 1 (might be difficult to manage since the effect isn't locked to the weapon you're actively using).
b. Make GMW and/or Keen Edge unrestricted. (Requires Keen Edge to be added to the cleric spell list)

4. Taking a page out of Runepriest; once a round if an enemy lands a hit gain temporary HP equal to your current soft Wisdom modifier (or WIS + CON mods due to the 1/round nature); this can stack. (Likely best to give this at a mid-teen or later level).

5. While Divine Power is active, gain: +4 Discipline and Concentration at lv 8, +7 at lv 16, +10 at lv 24. These do not stack.

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Distant Relation » Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:51 pm

Good Character wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 3:52 pm
4. Taking a page out of Runepriest; once a round if an enemy lands a hit gain temporary HP equal to your current soft Wisdom modifier (or WIS + CON mods due to the 1/round nature); this can stack. (Likely best to give this at a mid-teen or later level).
I like this A LOT. If its too tricky to code you could defintely do the opposite, similar to paladin's preserverence path: Gain Temp HP after hitting someone in melee, max once per round, scaling to some stat or stat combination as suggested.

Really has that flavor of "your god will protect you if you just have the faith to get in combat and stay there", and offers clear downsides/counterplay in situations where you're unable to get stuck in.

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Ork » Fri Apr 15, 2022 6:03 pm

Here's just a few thoughts. Spitballing. Uncouple war domain from the martial feat. Give martial to the warpriest. Give them sf: leadership at L6 and esf: leadership at 18 instead of combat casting feats. I like weapon specialization at 12, but maybe we just do a martial bonus feat using the fighter feat list at L12 and L24. Remove the +CL to dispel. Smite only applies damage from cleric levels with no added AB. Give them access to a changed battle mastery ability. No ESF abilities, summoning up to VIII

Battle Mastery
The cleric gains 1+1 per 5 cleric levels to damage, damage reduction and double that value in temporary HP. This effect lasts equal to 10 rounds + leadership/5. This is provided to allies within a huge radius. Battle Mastery immediately replenishes 1 smite use.

Cleric level, Damage, Damage Reduction, Temp HP
1 +1 1/+5 +2
5 +2 2/+5 +4
10 +3 3/+5 +6
15 +4 4/+5 +8
20 +5 5/+5 +10
25 +6 6/+5 +12
30 +7 7/+5 +14

Obviously we're looking at +12 damage overall and +27 damage on a smite that gets reduced based on alignment.

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Party in the forest at midnight
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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Fri Apr 15, 2022 6:36 pm

For caster paths, it might be interesting to give each domain its own infinicast spell (sort of like how arcane caster greater spell focus gives an infinicast spell for that particular spell school). But that'd be a lot of work going over the full list and picking out something for each domain. If we help come up with ideas for spells is it possible this might be implemented?

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Exordius » Sat Apr 16, 2022 5:59 am

For caster paths, it might be interesting to give each domain its own infinicast spell (sort of like how arcane caster greater spell focus gives an infinicast spell for that particular spell school). But that'd be a lot of work going over the full list and picking out something for each domain. If we help come up with ideas for spells is it possible this might be implemented?
That would be awesome indeed. Anyway i have a some ideas for a few domains which might work...

Fire could give either burning hands or maybe scorching ray. Storm gives maybe electrical loop or lightning bolt.

Cold could give either ice knife or frost bite. Ooze would probably be melfs acid arrow as there is no 3rd level acid spell.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by RollerToaster » Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:08 pm

I would like to point out that the Suffering Domain gives Evil Blight as a level 8 spell yet all Clerics already get it at level 5 by default. Evil Blight is not worth being a 8th level spell even if it were the only way Clerics got it. (For anyone who doesn't know, Evil Blight is just an AOE Bestow Curse spell.) As for possible replacements? The only spells I can see which are similar level and would match the Suffering Domain would probably be Finger of Death or Creeping Doom. But these two are death/damage spells which might be an issue.

Sidenote: The wiki article for Clerics doesn't mention that they all get Evil Blight as a 5th Spell.

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Kalthariam » Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:49 am

Thank you for the update.

I am looking forward to the fine tuning of the changes. I will admit the split between Defiler and Healer does feel good to me, and I believe it does help further the "Healer" fantasy when you decide to choose the healer path.

The changes to the two buffs spells is also a welcome change, reducing the dedication to be able to effectively use it in an already cluttered spellbook, alleviates my biggest concern with this features functionality and usefulness.

I appreciate your efforts to respond to our feedback. :)

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Hazard » Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:53 am

I was pretty addicted to the old healer path, played like 10 of them to max level. Loved it.
None of the new paths really scratch that same itch in the same way for me, not in the the pure 30 class caster-cleric sort of way.
Could go cloistered, but honestly pathless and a 3dip into bard or warlock seems most likely.

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:17 am

So! Warpriests. Probably one of the hardest things to design, imo. I make no claim I'm suggesting anything at all balanced.

Warpriests struggle in Pathfinder2e vs. paladins, and warpriests in 3.5e were PrCs that were usually the capstone of cleric/fighter characters. So, also, struggled to have an identity.

Some assumptions:
> Mechanically, we want warpriests to be better battleclerics than normal clerics.
> Thematically, we want warpriests to be the militant branch of any faith, and derive their power from blessings themselves, not necessarily slinging spells (even summons).

Based off the wiki,
> Smiting is certainly an added bonus to battleclerics (although we need certain domains?), however it keys off charisma, which I suppose battleclerics can support due to zoo spells, but it certainly doesn't feel as flavourful as it could. I'd cut Smiting and look elsewhere.

> Combat Casting and Improved Combat Casting are probably some of the best additions, since battleclerics now have 0 risk winding up under pressure. This gets a +1.

> Extended Divine Favour and Divine Power also are thematically on point, but mechanically not that different. What could be cooler is if both of these spells have modified versions for the Warpriest - you could consider, for example, retooling Divine Power's BAB/APR to just be a flat additional attack per round, regardless of APR. Warpriests could change the [damage] type of Divine Favour.

> Not being able to summon is thematically on point, but mechanically a big hit (especially for solo players). But I agree with Good Character's assessment that it helps create the "fantasy" of a warpriest a lot. I wouldn't really want summons added back in.

> Added Weapon Specialization is great. But the weird Forge/War domain stuff is weird.

> -2 DC seems thematically on point, but also hampers some warpriests versus standard battleclerics. What if it was -2 on DCs that were "single target" spells?

> Epic Spells restrictions seems slightly arbitrary? -yoink and -teleport_portal both seem flavourful to a warpriest, but I can see -scry or hellball'ing or -send_message being weird.

> +3 CL hits mechanical and thematic notes, but is just a bit boring.

Some new considerations!

+ Warpriest levels grant Armored Vigil (from Fighter).

+ Warpriest levels grant Field Maintenance (from Fighter).

+ All healing spells of a Warpriest heal themselves an additional 5% at level X, and 10% at level X (even Heal). [affects only warpriest, not other PCs]

+ Warcry is extended like Divine Favour and Divine Power.

+ All warpriests gain Aura of Vitality as a 7th level spell.

+ At level 27, Warpriests get Epic Weapon Specialization for free.

+ All zoo spells gain a scaling refund %.

+ When a warpriest -prays in combat, its benefit affects all friendly PCs in a [colossal] nearby area.

+
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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Ork » Tue Apr 26, 2022 5:19 am

Something to note about improved combat casting. This feat only removes attacks of opportunities when casting a spell, it will not protect you from concentration checks due to damage while casting a spell. You can still get interrupted.

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Aren » Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:46 pm

Kenji wrote:
Thu Apr 14, 2022 5:01 am
Thank you all for your feedback; they have been insightful.

The following changes are what I gathered to be a good start in addressing most of those concerns. Some of these will be PGCC-only for a duration to test things out and should the experience appear to be positive without it being overpowered, it may hit live.

Warpriest:
Able to summon creatures up to VIII, but epic summons and 9th level summons (Swarm, IX, Gate, etc) are still disabled.

Healers:
They no longer have negative spell synergies, also negative and death spells have their damage/DC reduced by half.
Overheal further increased to a max of 90hp if the healer has the Healing or Suffering domain, 60hp without either.

Evangelist, Cloistered, & Healer:
Divine Power lasts 1 turn / CL (Evangelist AB increase is still 1 round / CL)
Divine Favor lasts 1 hour
Have these changes hit PGCC yet?

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Kenji » Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:16 am

Not yet.

...

Soon™

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Aren » Thu Apr 28, 2022 9:39 am

Kenji wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:16 am
Not yet.

...

Soon™
I quiver in anticipation.

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Quidix » Mon May 16, 2022 8:09 pm

I do like the new changes, thank you.

On War Priest, I'd consider adding these, or at least some of them:

- Instead of +3CL to dispel, make it real CL and make it function like it is for shaman

- Give AD: Abjuration for free again as Cha-based clerics are feat tight (as the path now encourages DS/DM)

- Grant Extra Turning, like other classes that get Divine Synergy

- Remove the restriction "No access to Epic Spell Foci commands" (unsure why this restriction is needed - getting an ESF on war priest is a tough feat investment)

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by zeroth » Tue May 24, 2022 2:45 pm

Defiler Class

Please do drop the simple weapon restriction from this path.

Defiler does not have overheal and their spells all require a touch attack, which means a 5% failure. They cant heal themselves either.

It is really very hard for any build diversity if we set it to simple weapon only for defiler.

Simple weapon restriction should only be set on healer path, and yes their overheal is powerful enough to warrant this, and we do not want more of such restrictions to be frank. It kills off a lot of build and multiclass diversity.

Nice work done for most of the paths.. just that 100% to 90% (for level 1 spells) was particularly painful, but playable,

Thanks for your hard work! it was fun.

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Kenji » Mon May 30, 2022 6:37 pm

Defiler path actually never got the restriction to simple weapons, and in a near-future update, the path description will reflect that.

With the coming Planar Conduit nerf, we have decided to keep Warpriest as is for a while until the dust settles. After that, we will be considering the following buffs to Warpriest:
  • +3 Overall CL instead of only CL vs Dispel when 21+ Warpriest
  • -3 DC for spells instead of -2 DC
  • Breach resistance (1 less breach removal)

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by MRFTW » Mon May 30, 2022 9:33 pm

Kenji wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 6:37 pm
With the coming Planar Conduit nerf
Oh, you tease.

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Rico_scorpion » Tue May 31, 2022 5:03 pm

Played a little with defiler (not enough for some worthy feedback so uh... of course feel free to dismiss!)

Several concerns and thoughts:

Problem: It feels a little like whatever trick the defiler is trying to do, the cloistered is just more versatile overall, even almost better at doing the exact same thing as the defiler due to the 20% refund. I have a rather tough time justifying myself going defiler over cloistered.

Suggestion: I strongly feel that defiler should have a similar mechanic as cloistered (+20-40% refund)for the purpose of "inflict" spells (if not all defiler spells).

Problem: I cannot back that concern with empirical evidence as I didn't get that far, but I have concerns that defiler's gimmick scales poorly compared to other cleric paths (like healer for example). More precisely I have concerns that the damage output will start strong and slowly become "meh+" during epics (except when you spend some higher level spells), and atop of that, you won't even succeed in your touch attacks against high epic contents and bosses, and all that to be added with being rather poor at fighting undeads (but at least that can be avoided to some extent).

Suggestion: Better epic scaling for inflict line of spells AND/OR ab bonus for touch attacks (scaling with cleric level?)

Aside from that, good job indeed!

My two cents!

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Tue May 31, 2022 5:51 pm

Could divine favour please not glow anymore? It looks really, really awful.

Image

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by WanderingPoet » Tue May 31, 2022 5:51 pm

Rico_scorpion wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 5:03 pm
Played a little with defiler (not enough for some worthy feedback so uh... of course feel free to dismiss!)

Several concerns and thoughts:

Problem: It feels a little like whatever trick the defiler is trying to do, the cloistered is just more versatile overall, even almost better at doing the exact same thing as the defiler due to the 20% refund. I have a rather tough time justifying myself going defiler over cloistered.

Suggestion: I strongly feel that defiler should have a similar mechanic as cloistered (+20-40% refund)for the purpose of "inflict" spells (if not all defiler spells).

Problem: I cannot back that concern with empirical evidence as I didn't get that far, but I have concerns that defiler's gimmick scales poorly compared to other cleric paths (like healer for example). More precisely I have concerns that the damage output will start strong and slowly become "meh+" during epics (except when you spend some higher level spells), and atop of that, you won't even succeed in your touch attacks against high epic contents and bosses, and all that to be added with being rather poor at fighting undeads (but at least that can be avoided to some extent).

Suggestion: Better epic scaling for inflict line of spells AND/OR ab bonus for touch attacks (scaling with cleric level?)

Aside from that, good job indeed!

My two cents!
Defiler:
For the duration of Divine Power (1 turn per caster level), instead of increasing BAB and gaining APR, all slotted Negative and Death spells have a % refund chance. Also raises Constitution to 18 if it isn't higher already.
Negative Spells: Inflict Wounds, Healing Sting, Circle of Doom, Slay Living, Harm, Vampiric Touch, Enervation, Energy Drain, Negative Energy Burst, Negative Energy Ray
Death Spells: Circle of Death, Finger of Death, Power Word: Kill, Disintegrate, Wrathful Castigation, Avascular Mass

Cloistered:
For the duration of Divine Power (1 turn per caster level), instead of increasing BAB and gaining extra APR, all Domain spells cast from the spellbook have a chance to refund upon being cast. Also raises Intelligence to 18 if it isn't higher already.

You already have what you want :)

On top of that you have spontaneous casting of most of circle of doom, harm and destruction, and you can maximize the damage of them. Inflict Critical will deal 94 damage as a 30 cleric, or 126 if you empower it, or 158 if you have death domain and empower it. 126 for a fourth level spell you can cast twice per round is pretty bonkers - especially as you get it back 50% of the time. Even stronger when combined with Suffering Domain to get back 79 life every time you land it.

Circle of death will deal the same about of damage but on a saving throw rather than touch attack, and in a double size AOE.
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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Rico_scorpion » Tue May 31, 2022 6:31 pm

You already have what you want
You read too fast or i wrote too fast. I meant to have the extra +10/20% refund chance for the inflict line of spells so that you may at least "infinicast" the inflict light/moderate wounds".

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