Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by TurningLeaf » Tue Jul 12, 2022 6:36 pm

Kenji wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:08 am
Warpriest isn't in a struggle, it's in a good spot and will only get better when Planar Conduit gets nerfed. The latest change is mainly for QoL and thematic purposes and is not indicative of the path's mechanical relevance to the current meta.
I do have to agree warpriest is looking better recently

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Edens_Fall » Wed Jul 13, 2022 2:48 pm

After playing around with Warpriest more, I am starting to like the class. Though my only issue so fair is longevity when doing dungeons. The Divine Power extensions is nice, but a good chunk of AB comes from Divine Favor, which even extended, doesn't last near as long. It would be really lovely in Favor lasted as long as Divine Power or at least twice as long as it does now.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:03 pm

In regards to action economy and the sharing of spell slots, Divine Power and Divine Favor are in a strange place. They're kind of needed on certain clerics, but they're also inconvenient in that they take up spell slots and require to be repeatedly casted throughout a dungeon.

I'm just brainstorming, so take this with a grain of salt: What if we combined both into a spell-like ability?

Divine Presence - Applies both the effects of Divine Favor and Divine Power. The duration can be the same as Divine Power, or less, if the team deems it.

It could even cost a use of Turn Undead, similar to Divine Might/Shield. Though it should definitely last longer and not be tied to Charisma for duration. For potency though? Maybe! 😏

Anyway, I would just love for it to be easily something you activate and not worry about until it runs out, instead of having to balance it with spell slots that already compete a lot with each other.

If balance is a concern, limit Divine Presence to majority Cleric or something similar. And definitely don't let it refresh other spellbooks if that's too much.


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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by hugolino » Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:47 pm

Proposed SEEKER or INQUIRER or WATCHDOG or PROPHETIC Path

Known as seekers, inquirers, watchdogs, or prophets, these clerics travel from place to place to deliver messages, investigate perils to fellow believers, and root out enemies of the faith. When righteous purity is not enough to achieve justice, seekers do not hesitate to turn to guile, trickery, or intimidation. While zealously dedicated to their deity, they don’t always follow the rules and practices expected of their religion.

Alignment: A seeker’s alignment need not be one of the normally allowed worshiper alignments, but must be within one step of deity’s alignment along the axis of law-chaos or good-evil.

Weapon Proficiency: Simple and Rogue.

Armor Proficiency: Light, Shield

Special:
- Wearing armor heavier than Light Armor will incur a Spell Failure chance penalty.
- Can spontaneously cast divination and illusion spells up to 4th level.
- Rogue levels count towards path progression so long as divine class levels are greater.
- 1/3 of Rogue levels +1 count toward Cleric Caster Level.
- 1/3 of Cleric levels +3 count towards Rogue's Uncanny Dodge progression if Rogue levels are present.
- Divine Favor is unchanged.
- For the duration of Divine Power (1 hour), instead of gaining APR, all divination and illusion spells cast from the character’s spellbook have a % refund chance. Also raises Strength to 18 or - if it is higher already - by +2.
- +2 DC on Divination and Illusion spells.
- Spell Focus Divination feat at 6th level.
- Greater Spell Focus Divination at 18th level.
- By using the “-track” command, a seeker can detect enemies in the area.
- 1/6 of path levels as bonus to Intimidate skill.
- Monk wisdom to AC reduced to 2/3
Last edited by hugolino on Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by hugolino » Thu Jul 14, 2022 3:44 am

Proposed "Law" Domain

Still Mind feat.
+3 Concentration
+3 Leadership

Domain infini-spell: "Command" spell with scaling DC

1 - True Strike
2 - Clarity
3 - Aura of Glory
4 - Hold Monster
5 - Banishment
6 - Aura of Vitality
7 - Power word, stun
8 - Mind Blank
9 - Dismissal

Note: This is inspired by differing renditions of the Law domain in D&D and other NWN servers as well as the spell list and "feel" of the exemplar of law, the Paladin. Admittedly, I skipped "Dominate Person," which is on the D&D 5th edition domain spell list for "Law."

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by kinginyellow » Thu Jul 14, 2022 4:58 am

The only suggestion I can give is in regard to Warpriest, and I perfectly understand if it got canned off the getgo for balance reasons.

The problem Warpriest seems to have is Windup. Pathfinder understood this. So when they made the Warpriest class for PF1E, they gave Warpriest an ability called Fervor.

Fervor was used in 3 ways. As a lay on hands on self, in which case it was a free action, a lay on hands for another, in which case it was a standard action, or to consume uses to cast buffs on yourself (And only on self-buffs) as a free action. It used Channel Energy uses (which here would be turn undead uses) to power itself.

Now the question is, would this be balanced for PVP since it makes Warpriest's action economy so much better?

Edit: It is worth noting that Warpriest in PF1E only has spells up to 6th level, so implementing this would require some self buffs to be excluded from the effect. Greater Sanctuary is an immediate red flag for me. Imagine being able to spend a use of turn undead to insta-cast it. It would still be on a uses per day, but cleric would effectively have hips against anyone without see invis or true sight.
Last edited by kinginyellow on Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Kaeladin » Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:23 am

The wind up is definitely an issue. I like both Miss Evelyn and kinginyellow's ideas about ways to decrease the wind up of the class. My original idea was to add refresh chances to divine favor (under divine power) as part of the package, as well as enhancing the path's self/group buffing ability to provide it an interesting niche, but I also think the class would get a huge QOL boost in decreasing wind up . With the sheer amount of self-buffing the class has to reach potential, it sometimes feel like a DBZ episode where we're going through a filler of shouting/charging up before we're ready for the real fight (but it's awesome when you get there!).

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Edens_Fall » Thu Jul 14, 2022 1:48 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:03 pm
In regards to action economy and the sharing of spell slots, Divine Power and Divine Favor are in a strange place. They're kind of needed on certain clerics, but they're also inconvenient in that they take up spell slots and require to be repeatedly casted throughout a dungeon.

I'm just brainstorming, so take this with a grain of salt: What if we combined both into a spell-like ability?

Divine Presence - Applies both the effects of Divine Favor and Divine Power. The duration can be the same as Divine Power, or less, if the team deems it.

It could even cost a use of Turn Undead, similar to Divine Might/Shield. Though it should definitely last longer and not be tied to Charisma for duration. For potency though? Maybe! 😏

Anyway, I would just love for it to be easily something you activate and not worry about until it runs out, instead of having to balance it with spell slots that already compete a lot with each other.

If balance is a concern, limit Divine Presence to majority Cleric or something similar. And definitely don't let it refresh other spellbooks if that's too much.
Both. Both is good. I like the idea of merging the spells or having them both cast at the same time with a longer duration.

Wind Up is also deff an issue, even more sonif you plan to PvP. Currently it highly encourages ambush attacks with limited RP as you have to wind up and act within a 3 min window.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Ork » Thu Jul 14, 2022 4:53 pm

The wind-up is necessary to keep clerics from going ham. At current we have warpriest that needs 2 rounds to be combat ready (3 if haste isn't up) divine power + divine favor + divine might&shield.

That is plenty fast, and similar to what a paladin has to push out to be combat ready.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Xerah » Sun Jul 17, 2022 6:10 pm

Magic domain change was A+

War priest, magic/war

One thing that would be a nice OoL is to increase the duration of Deafening clang to Turn/Level (as a paladin) if you have a domain that adds that as a bonus (Even if just self cast). Since you're almost always casting this while in Divine power (and it replaces temp essences) it will come back 80% of the time, which means you're only really using 2 slots for this.

Would be nice to not have to keep juggling durations on this.
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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Edens_Fall » Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:28 pm

Xerah wrote:
Sun Jul 17, 2022 6:10 pm
Magic domain change was A+

War priest, magic/war

One thing that would be a nice OoL is to increase the duration of Deafening clang to Turn/Level (as a paladin) if you have a domain that adds that as a bonus (Even if just self cast). Since you're almost always casting this while in Divine power (and it replaces temp essences) it will come back 80% of the time, which means you're only really using 2 slots for this.

Would be nice to not have to keep juggling durations on this.
A lovely point

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by CHBanger » Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:52 pm

Playing a Warpriest with Forge Domain, yesterday could cast Mordekainen's Sword, today cannot. I'll assume that Shelgarn's Persistent Blade and Black Blade of Disaster are no longer useable too.

What happened?

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Edens_Fall » Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:20 pm

Warpriest gives up all summons in exchange for melee perks. Likely a bug that was fixed.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by CHBanger » Tue Jul 19, 2022 8:32 pm

Edens_Fall wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:20 pm
Warpriest gives up all summons in exchange for melee perks. Likely a bug that was fixed.
The update says, "Can not summon creatures or elemental swarm".

What does creature mean? Mord's is a transmutation spell, not a conjuration spell.

The wiki says "Cannot summon in general".

So, what does summon mean? And what does "in general mean"? I read that to mean that they can summon somethings.

I'm currently at level 14 and I'm finding the journey here to be underwhelming. I didn't take a CHA build or good domain, so the smite evil is fairly useless, I don't even slot it anymore. I won't get access to Divine Might and Divine Shield.

With long term buffs I can get to a 35 AC (Mage Armor, Magic Vestment x2, full plate and tower shield, +1 dodge boots, +1 deflection helm plus some Tumble), with Shield of Faith I can get to a 38 AC, but that only lasts at turns/level.

I don't have a deep pool of Divine Power or Divine Favor, so those only get used when things go south. And now I have nothing to take a little of the pressure off when I get swarmed by a group of 5.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Xerah » Tue Jul 19, 2022 8:58 pm

Cannot summon should mean no summons allowed. There may eventually be some edge cases where it's permitted, but things like BBoD are not one of those.


My warpriest is lvl 15 and it's been an absolute breeze.

Smite evil is never useless since it's a free action attack.

Turns per level, when extended, is a significant amount of time at that level. You'll want to be using extended divine power as often as possible (I have it slotted 8x) and use divine favour when things might get tricky (I've got that slotted 7x). If you didn't take the divine feats, then you have space for Transmutation which is pretty great for your gearing since you'll be able to get so much STR/CON from bulls/bears + AoV. From there, use Expertise + haste as needed.

I do have some CHA, but not enough to do much with yet. I think I would have been better off with the trans focus, but we'll see when I've got the gear to support.
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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by CHBanger » Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:13 am

Xerah wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 8:58 pm
Cannot summon should mean no summons allowed. There may eventually be some edge cases where it's permitted, but things like BBoD are not one of those.


My warpriest is lvl 15 and it's been an absolute breeze.

Smite evil is never useless since it's a free action attack.

Turns per level, when extended, is a significant amount of time at that level. You'll want to be using extended divine power as often as possible (I have it slotted 8x) and use divine favour when things might get tricky (I've got that slotted 7x). If you didn't take the divine feats, then you have space for Transmutation which is pretty great for your gearing since you'll be able to get so much STR/CON from bulls/bears + AoV. From there, use Expertise + haste as needed.

I do have some CHA, but not enough to do much with yet. I think I would have been better off with the trans focus, but we'll see when I've got the gear to support.
Thank you for the reply.

Here is what I currently have, base stats and feats:
STR 18 - I can get to a 30 with current gear and a 6 point BS, which I think maxes me out, would AoV add to that?
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 19
CHA 6

Feats: Craft Wand, GSF (Transmutation), Improved Crit (1-hand edge), Power Attack

Power Attack was probably a wasted feat, but I was using to open up other feats for later on.

And I have to really disagree on the smite evil. I get 1 attack every 3 minutes for ~20 points, if it hits, doesn't make a big difference considering the large hit point pool of mobs, I might be lucky to get it off twice in a single combat.

Well, since it appears that I'll never be able to use my Forge Domain spells with the Warpriest I'll have to look to see about a reset then as that was a key component to the RP aspect of the character. May have to mix with some levels of something else to get the more martial affect.

Oh, and also, looks like you've been here since 2015, so you've been playing for ~7 years? So your knowledge of the server is probably far superior to mine, so you know all the ins and outs of where to go. I'm just stumbling around Skal, Tundra mobs can be a pain, especially the displacer beast and the ferocious snow leopard. The greater air elementals south of Dunmarle just get past my AC like it was nothing.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Xerah » Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:12 am

I really don’t understand how a free action attack that can crit for 0 resources is something to “really disagree” about.

Realistically, you’re not going to need any STR on your gear. 6 from bulls, 4 AoV, 2 from divine power. You can get similar from CON but you’ll want 2 from gear to max it.

This leaves you lots of rooms for saves and whatever else you want to add (lvl 1 cleric slots maybe)

Craft wand is something to wait on. Power attack isn’t that useful if you’re not getting divine feats. Why take gorge domain if you’re not using some kind of hammer?

You really want weapon focus and expertise though. Without weapon focus you miss out on free weapon spec feat.

You can do a rebuild to fix some of this stuff if you want to test it out.
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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by xf1313 » Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:03 am

CHBanger wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:13 am

Here is what I currently have, base stats and feats:
STR 18 - I can get to a 30 with current gear and a 6 point BS, which I think maxes me out, would AoV add to that?
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 19
CHA 6

Feats: Craft Wand, GSF (Transmutation), Improved Crit (1-hand edge), Power Attack

Power Attack was probably a wasted feat, but I was using to open up other feats for later on.

And I have to really disagree on the smite evil. I get 1 attack every 3 minutes for ~20 points, if it hits, doesn't make a big difference considering the large hit point pool of mobs, I might be lucky to get it off twice in a single combat.

Well, since it appears that I'll never be able to use my Forge Domain spells with the Warpriest I'll have to look to see about a reset then as that was a key component to the RP aspect of the character. May have to mix with some levels of something else to get the more martial affect.
You have the forge domin! My personal experience is....well, the non pathed cleric has a lot more flexibility.

May I suggest you to try the cloistered path? The scholar priest. Be 27 cleric and 3 monk in the end to get wis ac and full tumble. You can still strike hard with fist or hammer, you get to use all your spells
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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Xerah » Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:29 am

xf1313 wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:03 am

You have the forge domin! My personal experience is....well, the non pathed cleric has a lot more flexibility.

May I suggest you to try the cloistered path? The scholar priest. Be 27 cleric and 3 monk in the end to get wis ac and full tumble. You can still strike hard with fist or hammer, you get to use all your spells
Dude, if you’re going to give build advice, please stay with the realm of what the player is. Obviously this character has been RPed as war priest and suggesting they become something fundamentally different is just not very helpful. Sure, it’s not unheard of that a war priest could give up their weapons and become a scholar, it’s a pretty extreme change in roleplay that the player isn’t even asking for.
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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by xf1313 » Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:31 am

Xerah wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:29 am
xf1313 wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:03 am

You have the forge domin! My personal experience is....well, the non pathed cleric has a lot more flexibility.

May I suggest you to try the cloistered path? The scholar priest. Be 27 cleric and 3 monk in the end to get wis ac and full tumble. You can still strike hard with fist or hammer, you get to use all your spells
Dude, if you’re going to give build advice, please stay with the realm of what the player is. Obviously this character has been RPed as war priest and suggesting they become something fundamentally different is just not very helpful. Sure, it’s not unheard of that a war priest could give up their weapons and become a scholar, it’s a pretty extreme change in roleplay that the player isn’t even asking for.
That is actually, 2 suggestion

1, unpathed Cleric, basically that character is the same but with summons.

2, decide to go robed

They are but suggestions, possibilities that up to player to decide if they want to take it or not. It is not like I am forcing ideas on him. He is clearly struggling at current path, so re-path is the way to go. Definitely more helpful than say warpriest is wonderful and he just played it wrong....

I am just trying to help the best I can. Besides, I am clearly not the best builder, others are more than welcome to give better ideas if possible
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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Kenji » Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:21 pm

hugolino wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:47 pm
Proposed SEEKER or INQUIRER or WATCHDOG or PROPHETIC Path

Known as seekers, inquirers, watchdogs, or prophets, these clerics travel from place to place to deliver messages, investigate perils to fellow believers, and root out enemies of the faith. When righteous purity is not enough to achieve justice, seekers do not hesitate to turn to guile, trickery, or intimidation. While zealously dedicated to their deity, they don’t always follow the rules and practices expected of their religion.

Alignment: A seeker’s alignment need not be one of the normally allowed worshiper alignments, but must be within one step of deity’s alignment along the axis of law-chaos or good-evil.

Weapon Proficiency: Simple and Rogue.

Armor Proficiency: Light, Shield

Special:
- Wearing armor heavier than Light Armor will incur a Spell Failure chance penalty.
- Can spontaneously cast divination and illusion spells up to 4th level.
- Rogue levels count towards path progression so long as divine class levels are greater.
- 1/3 of Rogue levels +1 count toward Cleric Caster Level.
- 1/3 of Cleric levels +3 count towards Rogue's Uncanny Dodge progression if Rogue levels are present.
- Divine Favor is unchanged.
- For the duration of Divine Power (1 hour), instead of gaining APR, all divination and illusion spells cast from the character’s spellbook have a % refund chance. Also raises Strength to 18 or - if it is higher already - by +2.
- +2 DC on Divination and Illusion spells.
- Spell Focus Divination feat at 6th level.
- Greater Spell Focus Divination at 18th level.
- By using the “-track” command, a seeker can detect enemies in the area.
- 1/6 of path levels as bonus to Intimidate skill.
- Monk wisdom to AC reduced to 2/3
I like this idea and might expand on this. It may need some more suggestions on names to go with it, however.

So far, the ones in mind are:
  1. Seeker
  2. Inquirer
  3. Inquisitor (too close to Paladin's Oath of Inquisition, maybe? But also the best religious theme imo)
  4. Witch Hunter (too specific)
  5. Torturer (probably not)
I'm split between Seeker and Inquisitor but leaning towards Seeker. Something that's like the agent or an investigator for the church.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Edens_Fall » Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:28 pm

I went War and Undead paths. 2H WF. Fully buffed 57 AC, with 51 AB. But mostly just run with extend divine power which lasts 9 min and gives me 44 AB.

You definitely want to max your Divine Power, Divine Favor, War Cry, Battle Tide casting ability.

But remember warpriest is good for short power bursts. Think goku. Its not that great for extended combat actions. So running a long dungeon is a pain, but for short battles like PvP, assuming you survive the wind up, it's pretty good.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by hugolino » Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:58 pm

Kenji wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:21 pm
I like this idea and might expand on this. It may need some more suggestions on names to go with it, however.

So far, the ones in mind are:
  1. Seeker
  2. Inquirer
  3. Inquisitor (too close to Paladin's Oath of Inquisition, maybe? But also the best religious theme imo)
  4. Witch Hunter (too specific)
  5. Torturer (probably not)
I'm split between Seeker and Inquisitor but leaning towards Seeker. Something that's like the agent or an investigator for the church.
Of those options, I personally like the names of Seeker or Inquisitor the most. Between those two, Seeker has less real life historical baggage, which could be a plus or a minus depending on one's perspective.

Other possible names: Emissary ("a person sent on a special mission" and my favorite of the below alternate name ideas), Envoy ("a messenger or representative") , Delegate (a real life term for a Catholic official who investigates a complaint of abuse), Inquiry Agent (British for "private detective"), Quester, Questioner, Researcher, Inspector, Examiner, Ostiary (a religious title that originally meant a servant or guard posted on the outside of a building), Postulant (a monastic term for "candidate" that literally means "asker") ...
Last edited by hugolino on Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:12 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Xerah » Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:21 pm

Kenji wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:21 pm
I like this idea and might expand on this. It may need some more suggestions on names to go with it, however.

So far, the ones in mind are:
  1. Seeker
  2. Inquirer
  3. Inquisitor (too close to Paladin's Oath of Inquisition, maybe? But also the best religious theme imo)
  4. Witch Hunter (too specific)
  5. Torturer (probably not)
I'm split between Seeker and Inquisitor but leaning towards Seeker. Something that's like the agent or an investigator for the church.
Divine seeker is an actual 3.5 class. It's kind of lame and Hugo's setup of abilities is more in line with Arelith, but perhaps something to get some inso from:

https://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/play ... index.html

It would be really great to finally make that rogue/cleric of Mask.
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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Kenji » Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:04 pm

Seeker it is! Mechanics TBD Soon™

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