Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

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WanderingPoet
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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by WanderingPoet » Tue May 31, 2022 10:19 pm

Rico_scorpion wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 6:31 pm
You already have what you want
You read too fast or i wrote too fast. I meant to have the extra +10/20% refund chance for the inflict line of spells so that you may at least "infinicast" the inflict light/moderate wounds".
The latter, but it makes more sense now.

Infinicasting even light would be a bit overpowered to be honest, that's 46 damage per cast, up to 54 if you're death domain, healing for 27 per cast with suffering domain. 108 damage per round and 54 healing per round would be very strong when it's a touch attack bypassing a lot of armour. Of course, not very strong in PVP given it's negative energy which NEP counters.

But compare that to the infinite casting of wizards and their magic missiles and it'd make defilers very much more powerful.
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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Wed Jun 01, 2022 4:12 am

I've been trying to figure out what domains to use to make the most out of cloistered path. I swapped out of the Protection domain, it was a bit lack luster. I have ESF abjuration so figured it would pair well with that, but it's not worth an entire domain just to cast shield.
* I can get shield from a wand or scroll, it's a fairly accessible spell. The only thing I'm losing is spell duration.
* Lifeline causes vfx which makes it not that great, I can't lifeline people who are entering tense meetings but are trying to not have a lot of visible buffs.
* Spell level 2 magic vestment isn't useful, all my zoo buffs are level 2. And it's an hours per level spell, so extending it isn't really worthwhile since you normally cast it on spell level 3 anyways.
* I really do not like stoneskin's visual effect and never use it.
* The globe of invulnerability line of spells aren't really that interesting. They compete with far more useful cleric spells.
* Warding rune is an awful spell to be a level 9 bonus. It caps at 5d8 damage at caster level 10.
* Lesser mind blank is a huge selling point, but magic domain has that too. So I swapped to magic.

Magic is a bit more interesting, it has lesser spell breach at spell level 4, which means a 60% chance at refund. I wanted to take a school that had some sort of offense to it too, so I could make use of the spell refund in a more practical way when I'm out dungeoning.
* I get a very high refund on magic missile. But the damage is really sad.
* Lesser missile storm is really lackluster. It has a 50% chance of refund. It's competing with more useful spells like haste and true seeing. I thought maybe it would be interesting to use in cases where I'm having trouble casting harm, but at most it does 60 damage. After playing around with it a bit, it's not worth the spell slots. The refund is too unreliable to make it something I can cast repeatedly, to make up for the bad damage.
* Is there a reason to cast spell level 8 silence? Does it boost DCs meaningfully? I've been told the reason for these spells in higher slots is because it boosts DCs. The last time I tried to use silence it didn't work terribly well, am I missing out on something great?
* Does having spell level 9 banishment make it a higher DC than Word of Faith, making it more effective at dismissing summons? The problem with banishment is last time I used it, it didn't respect parties, it will dismiss MY OWN summon as well as the enemy's. But I imagine this is much more useful for melee clerics, who can not only dismiss summons, but also ward against summoning for a minute.


Otherwise, I'm not a fan of the ironguts change. My main damage spell is harm, which is hard countered by NEP which is fairly low on the breach table. With ironguts being at the top, it's even lower now.

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Rico_scorpion » Wed Jun 01, 2022 11:44 am

Well now suffering doesn't leech life with inflict spells anymore AND there's a 10% less chance of refund across the board (level 1 spells start at 80% vs 90%).

So uh, the more defilers get nerfed, the more my previous comment about cloistered feels true. Throw them a bone :D

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Paint » Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:21 am

Asking this here because I'm not sure because I haven't tested it yet, but I am probably going to do that whenever I can get twenty minutes to PGCC, but

is the +3 CL on Warpriest something that is supposed to work with the FS synergy with cleric paths? And if so, would that replace or be in addition to the 2/3rds CL that FS gets from Cleric paths?

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Kenji » Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:26 am

Suffering domain should still provide vampiric effect, it just doesn't empower inflict/harm for extra damage anymore.

FS receives both 2/3 CL from cleric levels as well as getting that 21+ warpriest CL. FS levels count towards that 21+ cleric levels for Warpriest.

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Rico_scorpion » Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:15 pm

Kenji wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:26 am
Suffering domain should still provide vampiric effect, it just doesn't empower inflict/harm for extra damage anymore.
87.3% sure it bugged out then (live and pgcc)

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by zeroth » Sat Jun 04, 2022 11:35 am

The vampiric inflict of Suffering domain is broken right now, the vampiric do not work now for sure. 100%.

Can anyone fix it please?...

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Paint » Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:55 am

I think that last divine power update made me flinch a little, but let me explain; If you're going to make a battle cleric, whether with the standard path or the warpriest path, and you have the absolute bonkers idea to make a dex-based cleric, one of the benefits of Divine Power is that you don't have to gear your strength nearly as hard because you can get it up to at least 18 with Divine Power alone.

Now that divine power just raises the higher of the two to 18, or gives you a +2 bonus on top of that if your score is already higher, it's... kind of awkward. It's definitely better for strength builds since they have to gear slightly less for it and can put that gear elsewhere, but for those aforementioned dex builds, the difference you have to make up might not be just 2.

It, under the worst circumstances, might be 7. And as someone who has had to quadstat gear before, that is uh, not an easy gulf to achieve. So Divine Power does a lot less for dex builds who use it now.

Now uh, on the other hand, are there even any dex-based cleric builds out there? I don't know. But if there was an attraction to it, it's quite a bit less attractive now.

I'm just hoping this hasn't affected my FS, because if it has, I might have to do some serious spreadsheet wizardry to figure out what I can even do with her. She's already damage anemic as is.

If the intent was to make an already unattractive option even more unattractive, I think this was achieved, but if not, I want to ask what the rationale behind the change was.

Edit:
A lot of the problem I'm presenting here can be solved by snagging the transmutation foci and getting the empower metamagic feat, but battle-clerics in general are feat tight, which might make this really cumbersome.

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Exordius » Mon Jun 06, 2022 5:03 am

Now that cantrips are infinite, perhaps giving the cleric and druid a few more based on domain/path would be nice. So say, fire would get flare, cold and or water would get ray of frost, earth and or ooze would get acid splash, air and or storm electrical jolt, and maybe illusion and or mind would get daze. I think it would be a good addition, especially for domains.

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Mon Jun 06, 2022 5:00 pm

An additional damage cantrip that is ranged would be nice. Inflict minor wounds is a touch attack, it would be nice to have something I could cast from a distance while my elemental attacks things.

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Exordius » Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:16 pm

An additional damage cantrip that is ranged would be nice.
That works too.

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by MissEvelyn » Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:31 am

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Mon Jun 06, 2022 5:00 pm
An additional damage cantrip that is ranged would be nice. Inflict minor wounds is a touch attack, it would be nice to have something I could cast from a distance while my elemental attacks things.
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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by RedGiant » Tue Jun 07, 2022 11:32 am

I'm with Paint on the dex cleric feedback, and of course, I have one.

Its maybe not the wisest thing to make a character where five stats are important, but divine power was a reliable way to temporarily boots the most likely stat to be neglected.

In the end, the change likely only grrants a QoL bump to levelling dexers which becomes irrelevant at the end, because if you went that route, you are gearing for max dex anyway.

I dont think it particularly benefits str version beyond this either for the same reason.

Maybe, unintuitively, it could target the weaker stat? Or be toggleable?
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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by xf1313 » Fri Jun 10, 2022 11:40 pm

Having one normal cleric made into the ‘bard-cleric’, the song and curse song are nice to have, because I zen archery so the difference in melee are not obvious.

Thou a few points here
1, to be able to learn and teach songs, you must get 5 or more bard levels, give up some cl. I do not know if it is intended? 27/3 combination is just less attractive here. Unlike warlock who has it all with one feat.

2, the choice of medium amour is limited to some extreme point, but other classes suffer more than cleric. Mithril chain amour will do, but hope with my whole heart that we can have more medium options from chest loot. Eleven ceremonial amour was almost too good to loose over a path.


When I considering making a new cleric, the battle cleric is still out of the options unless I do monk-war priest. Where the cleric is there for thematic reasons and a bit of buff. Some of the suggestions here are actually very good, like some infa-casting ideas, that would make warpriest attractive.
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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by zeroth » Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:02 pm

Can we revert the changes to suffering domains please?

After the empowered inflict was removed from suffering domains, it was just weak.

Inflict spells need a touch attack and it fails on a 1 unlike most spells. It really needs some loving.

I doubt anyone will actually use this domain if things stay as they are.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Kenji » Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:38 am

RollerToaster wrote:
Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:08 pm
I would like to point out that the Suffering Domain gives Evil Blight as a level 8 spell yet all Clerics already get it at level 5 by default. Evil Blight is not worth being a 8th level spell even if it were the only way Clerics got it. (For anyone who doesn't know, Evil Blight is just an AOE Bestow Curse spell.) As for possible replacements? The only spells I can see which are similar level and would match the Suffering Domain would probably be Finger of Death or Creeping Doom. But these two are death/damage spells which might be an issue.

Sidenote: The wiki article for Clerics doesn't mention that they all get Evil Blight as a 5th Spell.
Eyebite placed at a higher domain level meant the DC for that spell is also raised. We'll see this approach in plenty of domains that have fewer options for "thematic" spells such as the Vermin domain getting Web at both level 1 and level 9.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Kenji » Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:41 am

Next set of Domain-specific changes
Cleric Domains
==============
[1][Cold]
* Level 9 "Burst of Glacial Wrath" changed to "Iceberg"
* Domain Power: Casts Burst of Glacial Wrath, replenishes every 3 minutes (lvl 18+ cleric/fs only)

[2][Fire]
* Level 8 "Elemental Swarm" changed to "Incendiary Cloud"
* Level 9 "Meteor Swarm" changed to "Elemental Swarm"
* Domain Power: Casts Meteor Swarm, replenishes every 3 minutes (lvl 18+ cleric/fs only)

[3][Protection]
* Level 3 "Minor Globe of Invulnerability" changed to "Glyph of Warding"
* Level 9 "Glyph of Warding" changed to "Protection from Spells"
* Upon applying Domain Power, both the target and self gain 50% physical damage reduction for 1 round

[4][Earth]
* Level 1 "Resist Elements"
* Level 2 "Glyph of Warding"
* Domain Power: Casts Stone Hold, replenishes every minute (lvl 12+ cleric/fs only)

[5][Storm]
* Level 1 "Resist Elements"
* Domain Power: Casts Chain Lightning, replenishes every minute (lvl 12+ cleric/fs only)

[6][Travel]
* Domain Power: Casts Time Stop (grants all affected creatures 100% dmg immunity and the cleric gets 100% spell failure rate), replenishes every 5 minutes (lvl 18+ cleric/fs only)

[7][Magic]
* Domain Power: Casts Great Spell Breach, replenishes every 3 minutes (lvl 18+ cleric/fs only)

[8][Ooze]
* Domain Power: Infinicast Acid Splash

[9][Water]
* Domain Power: Casts Drown, replenishes every 1 minute (lvl 12+ only)

[10][Air]
* Domain Power: Casts Horizikaul's boom, replenishes every 1 round
Commentary:
There is plenty of feedback that players would like domains to offer infinicast cantrips/orisons, but since domain spells are edited through domains.2da changes, which is a hak change and hardcoded by that nature, it is likely that we can't do it via conventional means, pending more extensive investigation and testing. But what we can do now is to allow domain powers (the accompanying feat that can be an active button) do something similar to infinicast orisons, if not better, to both provide caster clerics something to do as well as differentiating the cleric class from the wizards.

For path-specific changes, please visit this post:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=36437&p=297199#p297199

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Re: Cleric Paths Feedback

Post by Kenji » Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:42 am

Next set of changes coming to cleric paths
Cleric Paths
============
[1][Warpriest]
* When Divine Power is active, gains a chance to refund Deafening Clang, Bless Weapon, Greater Magic Weapon, Elemental Weapon, Keen Edge, and Darkfire

[2][Healer]
* Divine Favor now grants extra 20% chance to refund

[3][Defiler]
* Divine Favor now grants extra 20% chance to refund
* Max overheal now goes up to 60 hp with Suffering or Healing domain, or 30hp without either
For domain-specific changes, please visit this post:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=34182&start=125#p297197

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Exordius » Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:49 pm

There is plenty of feedback that players would like domains to offer infinicast cantrips/orisons, but since domain spells are edited through domains.2da changes, which is a hak change and hardcoded by that nature, it is likely that we can't do it via conventional means, pending more extensive investigation and testing. But what we can do now is to allow domain powers (the accompanying feat that can be an active button) do something similar to infinicast orisons, if not better, to both provide caster clerics something to do as well as differentiating the cleric class from the wizards.
What about creating a new cleric orison like 5E's Sacred Flame? That combined with the changes stated above would be simply fabulous.
Last edited by Exordius on Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by MRFTW » Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:57 pm

Just give clerics flare? Ive personally been enjoying throwback flare spam like I was an old warlock on my new shaman.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:15 pm

Some thoughts:
* Level 3 "Minor Globe of Invulnerability" changed to "Glyph of Warding"
Glyph of Warding is already a level 3 spell.

* Upon applying Domain Power, both the target and self gain 50% physical damage reduction for 1 round
If this is upped to 2 rounds it'd be an interesting alternative to timestop. With just 1 round it doesn't allow for much, if I'm hasted I could get another spell off.

* Domain Power: Casts Great Spell Breach, replenishes every 3 minutes (lvl 18+ cleric/fs only)
This is interesting, looking forward to trying it out.


A lot of the spell changes seem interesting but I don't have any meaningful commentary for it. For example the fire domain looks especially fiery and that sounds like it'd be fun to play with. Air, water and cold I'm having a harder time envisioning how it'd play out, I'd want to experiment with them. I'm not sure what to think of timestop, it seems to purely be to escape. It doesn't allow clerics to start their self buffs due to the 100% spell failure rate. Maybe a melee cleric could use it to get into melee range of a target that's running? I'm not sure.

There is plenty of feedback that players would like domains to offer infinicast cantrips/orisons, but since domain spells are edited through domains.2da changes, which is a hak change and hardcoded by that nature, it is likely that we can't do it via conventional means, pending more extensive investigation and testing. But what we can do now is to allow domain powers (the accompanying feat that can be an active button) do something similar to infinicast orisons, if not better, to both provide caster clerics something to do as well as differentiating the cleric class from the wizards.
The one thing that the new cantrips do is give a steady supply of 5d6 damage spells. Clerics get 1 damage infinicast out of it, which is a negative energy touch attack. I've played around with it and it actually works pretty well, it gives me something to do if I use my illusion domain color spray to daze things. Without it I wouldn't even bother with color spray because it has a high likelihood of drawing aggro onto myself and off my elemental, and my elemental is more than capable of handling the random things I throw it at. If I can also do damage while I'm casting color spray it feels like a more meaningful choice.

The only thing I'd ask for is also getting a ranged infinicast spell. Flare would be a really good choice, if that could be given as a cloistered path bonus (maybe other caster paths could get it too?). The only other cleric spell that sort of fits is Searing Light, but it's a bit more powerful. It's 5d8 against most things, 10d8 vs undead, and 5d6 vs constructs.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Stop. Ninja Time » Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:44 pm

Kenji wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:41 am
Next set of Domain-specific changes
Cleric Domains
==============
[10][Air]
* Domain Power: Casts Horizikaul's boom, replenishes every 1 round
I really like all of these changes! Air strikes me as a bit of an odd one out though. Ooze gets infinitecase acid slash which does 1d6 per 3 levels, to a max of 10d6 per cast or 20d6 per round.

Horizikaul's boom gets one cast every round even while hasted for 5d4 damage and a chance to make the enemy deaf and make them immune to it's damage.

Personally I'd rather see Defeaning Clang become the domain power if I had to choose between Boom and Defeaning Clang so that there can be significant uptime (you can already get this with cloistered and divine favor/power with 100% replenishment chance) and them Horizikaul's boom being the level 1 spell so that when you're cloistered/divine favor/power you can cast it twice/round when hasted. It's always a bit unfortunate to be cloistered and have a buff as your level one spell, in my opinion.

As it is, the boom is basically worse than magic missiles.

It'd also be nice if Horizikaul's boom just sucked less overall, 5d4 damage at level 10+ (or less before 10) is paltry damage compared to cantrips, and it doesn't make a ton of sense to use it or limit it to once/round as it is now. Even basic magic missiles does 5d4+5 damage, and is less likely to be resisted than sonic damage.

So if it does stay as Boom, making it closer to 10d4 damage and maybe castable twice/round would be a vastly more useful spell.

Maybe it could be sound lance on a once per round? 10d8 vs 20d6 damage, or even once per two rounds for 10d8 vs 40d6 damage, since sound lance is party friendly aoe.
Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:15 pm

The one thing that the new cantrips do is give a steady supply of 5d6 damage spells. Clerics get 1 damage infinicast out of it, which is a negative energy touch attack. I've played around with it and it actually works pretty well, it gives me something to do if I use my illusion domain color spray to daze things. Without it I wouldn't even bother with color spray because it has a high likelihood of drawing aggro onto myself and off my elemental, and my elemental is more than capable of handling the random things I throw it at. If I can also do damage while I'm casting color spray it feels like a more meaningful choice.

The only thing I'd ask for is also getting a ranged infinicast spell. Flare would be a really good choice, if that could be given as a cloistered path bonus (maybe other caster paths could get it too?). The only other cleric spell that sort of fits is Searing Light, but it's a bit more powerful. It's 5d8 against most things, 10d8 vs undead, and 5d6 vs constructs.
Maybe I've misread it, but aren't cantrips 10d6 damage spells? 1d6 per 3 levels, even with a dip is 9d6. Where do you get 5d6 from?

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Mon Jun 13, 2022 3:40 pm

That's me doing math wrong, my bad. Good catch.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Join Us. Thrive. » Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:44 pm

I have a question about some of the changes to spells that just occurred.

There are a number of relatively lower level mobs who might have a much higher CL than the average adventurer. Does this mean their Hammer of the Gods will also do a lot more damage? The same with some of those other spells. Are these changes things which will impact the spells as a whole, and if so, does there need to be some consideration towards NPC's and mobs who use them?

This could pose a significant increase in damage in some zones which are even lower level if so.

Thanks!

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Scraps » Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:18 pm

Stop. Ninja Time wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:44 pm
Kenji wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:41 am
Next set of Domain-specific changes
Cleric Domains
==============
[10][Air]
* Domain Power: Casts Horizikaul's boom, replenishes every 1 round
I really like all of these changes! Air strikes me as a bit of an odd one out though. Ooze gets infinitecase acid slash which does 1d6 per 3 levels, to a max of 10d6 per cast or 20d6 per round.

Horizikaul's boom gets one cast every round even while hasted for 5d4 damage and a chance to make the enemy deaf and make them immune to it's damage.
Image

It'll be up to 15d4 per round now.

Still, this should be infinite cast I think, its scaling to cantrips is pretty much spot on. Having it recharge once per round does make it actively worse. At max level including dip it'll also be 2d4 levels down in max potential damage compared to a cantrips 1d6, so it'll be slightly worse than a cantrip there too even if it was cast twice per round.

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