Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

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Exordius
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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Exordius » Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:21 am

While i have some more ideas for the fire domain, ill start with a relatively small one. Consider swapping Flame-Lash for Fire-Ball... after all should not the fire domain get access to the most iconic fire spell?

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Anomandaris » Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:12 pm

I think in general you did a great job avoiding most of the really problematic spells that would put the Cleric spell list in overdrive with a given exploitable combo or whatever. I also think it's great to see the cleric being wrangled into a more focused kit than a weird subclass with 1-2 no brainer domain choices and a bunch of junk. Some are still a bit underwhelming but I'm sure that will change w/ future changes and passives.

That said, I think a few of the domains offer a bit too much on TOP of the existing kit, that become a bit oppressive compared to other kits out there (especially considering they all receive haste now). Cleric already mixed well for some very strong bcleric & caster builds.

Darkness Domain - There's a ton of utility and value in the shadow illu spells. It's great that it's opening up an "illusion cleric" without doing (now non-viable) illusion meme builds. That said, it's consistently a lot of value from every spell on that list, making Darkness relatively more useful than other domains and a bit overtuned. A darkness + (misc. domain) cleric compared to their arcane cousins (given the room for wis synergy) starts to look consistently more appealing. It's basically giving the cleric a really easy path to play "like" a SM on the illusion tree and get evasion off of monk dip with great AC to boot. Add in the existing divine kit which is amazing and your evo "boom cleric" looks a lot scarier with some very strong will scaling options.

Good Domain - Getting WoF on lvl 6 is a pretty big deal. WoF spam is already very strong and common used tactic, Good getting gate @ 8 is already nice, now making Gate extendable besides its slot economy. When I compare Good to Evil domain, Evil gets the lvl 8 gate which is great, but nothing near as powerful as the sleeper bonus of lvl 6 WoF which w/ metamagic allows for a way more efficient WoF spam (not sure we need more of that in our lives).

Misc Note (sorry if this deviates from the desired structure of feedback):
I'm not sure I get the desired direction for DR, weapon enhancement bonus and desired power lvls for the server. I'm a bit confused about the trend. We're offering specialized DR options through a new stone skin buff opp and also div spec wiz (+7 prem), but we're also putting new +4 weapons and easy access to +1-x enhancement bonuses through certain classes. And on the same stroke, Premonition is becoming widely available to several domains as a bonus spell. However DR spells have become much less useful in general vs your average opponent in PvP. The trend of more and more +4 weapons (that act like +5-7) resulting in a creep in overall net enhancement bonus available to melee classes seems at odds with a previously stated desire to pull back some power creep on items. This could be relevant when viewing the "actual" practical value of Earth's stoneskin or prem as an avail spell to more domains "in the wild."


Thanks for your time and hard work on this!

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Edens_Fall » Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:12 pm

I've been looking over the new Turn Undead changes. Can you clarify how they will affect player Undead PC's such as Vampires?

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Skeletor » Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:55 pm

Just read about Sun domain no longer having exceptional turning.
Curious since I'm playing a sun domain cleric. Not like I was using exceptional turning all the time, but I'm wondering if there's going to be some replacement domain ability or something of the sort?

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Skeletor » Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:22 pm

I missed one of the updates, didn't realize it now burns and damages undead and can turn aberrations! Very good tradeoff imho.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Red_Wharf » Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:31 pm

A random idea, what if nature-themed cleric cavaliers with the plant or animal domains were able to summon special wild horses just like ranger cavaliers are able to?

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Kenji » Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:24 pm

Hi guys,

With the recent update to Turn Undead (Or just Turning in general), I'm looking for feedbacks pertaining to its functions and general usefulness.

Something like "PCs are getting turned too often, Turn Undead is too powerful" or "NPCs aren't getting turned enough, I feel like the improved turning feat isn't doing much" with various details such as "the target creature has Spell Resistance that makes it harder to turn" can be helpful in tuning Turn Undead ability.
Edens_Fall wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:12 pm
I've been looking over the new Turn Undead changes. Can you clarify how they will affect player Undead PC's such as Vampires?
We will be making a wiki page with comprehensive details and changes to Turn Undead such as which domains can turn what creatures, calculations (and changes compared to vanilla), and different results when turning a PC vs an NPC. It's not out yet but keep an eye out.
Red_Wharf wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:31 pm
A random idea, what if nature-themed cleric cavaliers with the plant or animal domains were able to summon special wild horses just like ranger cavaliers are able to?
After the domains are in a good place, I will probably revisit cavaliers and clean up its scripts for weapon detection as well as setting up a better system for their steed summoning. This is certainly a good idea and one that should be realized in the future.
Jordenk wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:12 pm
Good Domain - Getting WoF on lvl 6 is a pretty big deal. WoF spam is already very strong and common used tactic, Good getting gate @ 8 is already nice, now making Gate extendable besides its slot economy. When I compare Good to Evil domain, Evil gets the lvl 8 gate which is great, but nothing near as powerful as the sleeper bonus of lvl 6 WoF which w/ metamagic allows for a way more efficient WoF spam (not sure we need more of that in our lives).
The intended design was to make Good and Evil domains almost identical but with slight variation. While the spell list presented a good thematic approach, we're also aware that mechanically WoF and Blasphemy just aren't the same. There are plans to mirror those two spells so the Evil counterpart doesn't feel left out as a result. "Good Hope" is also another powerful spell on its list that doesn't mechanically mirror "Crushing Despair" due to the buff being 100% applicable to allies while the hostile spell can be negated by Will.
Jordenk wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:12 pm
Misc Note (sorry if this deviates from the desired structure of feedback):
I'm not sure I get the desired direction for DR, weapon enhancement bonus and desired power lvls for the server. I'm a bit confused about the trend. We're offering specialized DR options through a new stone skin buff opp and also div spec wiz (+7 prem), but we're also putting new +4 weapons and easy access to +1-x enhancement bonuses through certain classes. And on the same stroke, Premonition is becoming widely available to several domains as a bonus spell. However DR spells have become much less useful in general vs your average opponent in PvP. The trend of more and more +4 weapons (that act like +5-7) resulting in a creep in overall net enhancement bonus available to melee classes seems at odds with a previously stated desire to pull back some power creep on items. This could be relevant when viewing the "actual" practical value of Earth's stoneskin or prem as an avail spell to more domains "in the wild."
I wanted to first introduce these minor interactions between domains and certain spells that will magnify the theme as well as giving a certain mechanical bonus without pushing it over the top. With the current setup, Clerics generally aren't sacrificing much when taking a certain domain, they'd only be not gaining from a different domain that they could have chosen as a result.

Specialist wizard, on the other hand, will usually be sacrificing a spell school, so the boost from ?/+5 DR to +7 for abjuration specialists is warranted. Making it +7 would make it too much of a decider for PvP that I wouldn't do so until the other domains have all received an equivalent amount of buffs.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Skeletor » Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:20 pm

Another random idea:

What about giving the MAGIC domain a +1 increased caster level in arcane classes every so many cleric levels taken, to allow for real "Cleric/Wizard" multiclass experimentation.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by legionetrangere » Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:23 pm

Skeletor wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:20 pm
Another random idea:

What about giving the MAGIC domain a +1 increased caster level in arcane classes every so many cleric levels taken, to allow for real "Cleric/Wizard" multiclass experimentation.
Though I like the proposal, that would mean getting +1 arcane/divine CL on each cleric level, no?. If thats the case, it would seem a bit to over the top IMHO
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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Hazard » Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:41 pm

Undeath domain is my new favourite thing on Arelith. I love it so much.
Finally. FINALLY my dreams of playing a necromancer-cleric are coming true. I'm. So. Freaking. Happy.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by wulfburk » Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:58 pm

Currently with a character with travel and war domains. I think War is really good as it stands and requires no changes. War Cry, Aura of Vitality and another Divine Power together overshadow the short duration of the domain power. Magic vestment in spell level 2 is kinda circunstancial but i guess most people will keep filling the slots with zoo buffs. Lastly, deafening clang is amazing for zen archers (like my char). Any additions to war domain are at risk of making it OP imo.

On travel, i think having another Haste and Freedom of movement really helps out to organize the slots as you see fit. At most, i think it could use a few additions, but nothing big. Mass Haste will probably make it OP. Maybe something like changing the haste spell, so if its a cleric with travel domain, it lasts 2 rounds per lvl instead of 1? For the special ability, it would be really fitting if clerics with travel domain had a combination of Rangers' map reveal revisited (wilderness) / nature sense / +20% movement speed (wilderness) / woodland stride (maybe just one or two of these).

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Skeletor
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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Skeletor » Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:34 am

legionetrangere wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:23 pm
Skeletor wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:20 pm
Another random idea:

What about giving the MAGIC domain a +1 increased caster level in arcane classes every so many cleric levels taken, to allow for real "Cleric/Wizard" multiclass experimentation.
Though I like the proposal, that would mean getting +1 arcane/divine CL on each cleric level, no?. If thats the case, it would seem a bit to over the top IMHO
Was thinking more like one cl every two levels, or every three levels!

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Edens_Fall » Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:25 pm

Kenji wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:24 pm

Edens_Fall wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:12 pm
I've been looking over the new Turn Undead changes. Can you clarify how they will affect player Undead PC's such as Vampires?
We will be making a wiki page with comprehensive details and changes to Turn Undead such as which domains can turn what creatures, calculations (and changes compared to vanilla), and different results when turning a PC vs an NPC. It's not out yet but keep an eye out.
Thank you Kenji!

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Ordo.Lupus » Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:19 pm

Elemental swarm cast with specific domains is a very nice touch that put emphasis on the clerics patron. However

Air domain: Elemental Swarm summons Air Only
Earth domain: Elemental Swarm summons Earth Only
Water domain: Elemental Swarm summons Water Only
Ooze domain: Elemental Swarm summons Ooze Only

Fire domain: Nothing comes out the bottle. Isn't this a bit weird?
"To every man is given the key to the gates of heaven. The same key opens the gates of hell" - Richard P. Feynman

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by MRFTW » Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:31 pm

It could be a balance thing. Fire elementals are by far the most effective elemental due to their damage shield. 4 might be a bit much.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Apothys » Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:39 am

Ordo.Lupus wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:19 pm
Elemental swarm cast with specific domains is a very nice touch that put emphasis on the clerics patron. However

Air domain: Elemental Swarm summons Air Only
Earth domain: Elemental Swarm summons Earth Only
Water domain: Elemental Swarm summons Water Only
Ooze domain: Elemental Swarm summons Ooze Only

Fire domain: Nothing comes out the bottle. Isn't this a bit weird?
*Priests and Priestesses of Kossuth cry out all at once - why have you forsaken us!*

Personally having a bunch of hasted air elementals or regenerating Water Elementals is much more durable than the Fire Elementals.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Ordo.Lupus » Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:46 am

Apothys wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:39 am
Ordo.Lupus wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:19 pm
Elemental swarm cast with specific domains is a very nice touch that put emphasis on the clerics patron. However

Air domain: Elemental Swarm summons Air Only
Earth domain: Elemental Swarm summons Earth Only
Water domain: Elemental Swarm summons Water Only
Ooze domain: Elemental Swarm summons Ooze Only

Fire domain: Nothing comes out the bottle. Isn't this a bit weird?
*Priests and Priestesses of Kossuth cry out all at once - why have you forsaken us!*

Personally having a bunch of hasted air elementals or regenerating Water Elementals is much more durable than the Fire Elementals.
Last time I played a cleric or druid was like 8-10 years ago (nor do I plan on playing one) so this won't even benefit me. But I am kind of puzzled that fire gets overlooked here. Air has damn high AC and water has regen. Earth get to play the Rocky theme. But I don't see fire elementals being that powerful to be honest.
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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Kenji » Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:24 pm

Ordo.Lupus wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:46 am
Last time I played a cleric or druid was like 8-10 years ago (nor do I plan on playing one) so this won't even benefit me. But I am kind of puzzled that fire gets overlooked here. Air has damn high AC and water has regen. Earth get to play the Rocky theme. But I don't see fire elementals being that powerful to be honest.
Take a chill pill, don't be so angry, it's not good for the heart.

Fire Domain to have meteor swarm replaced with elemental swarm eventually. But going forward, don't take this change as an affirmation of this being the absolute way to voice your opinion whenever you have concerns about certain changes.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Exordius » Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:20 pm

Fire Domain to have meteor swarm replaced with elemental swarm eventually.
Please don't, having meteor swarm is one of the reasons i took fire domain.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Stop. Ninja Time » Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:31 am

Kenji wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:24 pm
Hi guys,

With the recent update to Turn Undead (Or just Turning in general), I'm looking for feedbacks pertaining to its functions and general usefulness.

Something like "PCs are getting turned too often, Turn Undead is too powerful" or "NPCs aren't getting turned enough, I feel like the improved turning feat isn't doing much" with various details such as "the target creature has Spell Resistance that makes it harder to turn" can be helpful in tuning Turn Undead ability.
I played around with this a bunch and I have some feedback for you; though the playing around was in the PGCC.

Neutral Good character has 32 charisma and 27 cleric levels.

Turn Undead in general: It seems quite strong, I was able to fear balor lords and even the CR 30 black slaad. Of course, I can only really turn one high level critter at a time, so that felt rather balanced. Of course, I had plenty of uses so if it was a dungeon I could probably snag 20-25 monsters depending on how fast we walked, or more if we rested during. No idea how powerful this would be against players; against summons Word of Faith would still probably work better, against shapeshifted druids it might be very powerful (but it was before).

Biggest issue I ran into was the number of mind immune vermin that entirely ignored the turn undead (sword spider, stag bettle, etc).

Command turning: This one was more bleh. It was supposed to allow control of animals but only ever seemed to work if I was twice their CR. I had to be level 18 just to take a Malar Panther, and even with the above (32 charisma, 27 cleric levels) I was never able to Command a Dire Tiger. Quite disappointing. I was hoping for something more akin to the ranger ability to animal empathy things with a high investment of charisma and a feat. With an elemental domain I was never able to command even a huge elemental.

It was also rather inconsistent/buggy. If I spawned 6 badgers (easy to command), 2 would get commanded, 2 would get neutralized, 2 would die. It makes sense I wouldn't get 6 henchmen, but strange that two just died. Sometimes if I spawned 2 badgers they would get commanded but keep attacking me. Sometimes when I dismissed the badgers they'd go attack people for a round or more.

Rebuke vs Fear: This seemed rather inconsistent as well, sometimes I would Fear them and sometimes I would Rebuke the same monster on subsequent uses. No idea why, or how what I roll affects what happens here. Practically, other than fear making them easier to hit and run away there is no huge difference between the two.

I think it would make more sense if Fear applied just the debuff (running away foes are annoying anyways), and the Fear and Rebuke could hit at the same time so that it's stunned for a few rounds but feared for a longer period. As it is, it just seems like one makes them hide in the corner the other doesn't.

Improved Turning: Like a better version of Sun Domain, which is rather cool to disentangle it from a domain. The first half is great, adding 1d6 to the turning roll. I would expect that with 32 charisma and 27 cleric levels I would be able to get a turning roll of 13-37, or affect HD from 28-35. I can still really only affect one target at a time in epics, but it means I've a good chance of doing something.
The total hit dice of all affected creatures is limited to 2d6 plus the turner's charisma modifier and level. This is increased by another d6 if the caster has the sun domain.
I think that the bonus to total hit dice could us a buff, 1d6 is tiny compared to your level + charisma modifier. In my case I could turn 40-50 or 41-56 if I have improved turning, not really much of a buff. Maybe it could change to 1/3 of your level or your charisma modifier instead?

Neutralize This text on the wiki doesn't make sense. Does that mean if you're not neutral but an animal/plant cleric then you'll just destroy them? Like Command it isn't clear when this happens, and as noted above half the time they'd be neutralized and half the time they'd be killed.

Conclusion I think the biggest feedback I have is the desire for more feedback. The system doesn't tell you anything; you click the button and hope for the best. It would be nice to know:

1) What you did to each affected enemy, did you rebuke, command, fear, destroy? It was hard to tell what I affected when I was in the PGCC, no matter if I was in the heat of a big party battle.
2) Why didn't it work, was your level too low? Did it have turn resistance? Mind immunity?
3) If it could work if you keep trying; was your turning roll low? If you tried again do you have a chance to succeed?

Overall a nice and welcome expansion to the system! It was always a little gimmicky to ever specialize in turning; since the best you could do was a few Vermin, Elementals, Outsiders and Undead; but the greater list definitely makes it more interesting. The ability to command or neutralize is very cool as well.

--------------------
Besides all of that, quite loving the domain overhaul across the board. It really feels like you can play a cleric of a particular god.

Two suggestions:
Maybe Favoured Soul could get one domain that just gives them those spells? It's a bit unfortunate that clerics are better at casting their god's magic than favoured souls who are supposed to get it naturally. While many of the spells are already in their spell list; a favoured soul of talos for example would be rather lacking in lightning spells.

Harper Priest has some really nice abilities for turning (+3 to turning! Free Planar Turning! A PRC that gets bonuses to turning!) could that class finally be made available without a token (or some variant of it)? Or the +3 to turning turned into a feat (maybe maxing at 30)?

As things stand the only two other classes you can really take are paladin/BG since at least you only lose 2 turning power, and if you're not near 30 cleric then from my testing you're not going to make much use of it at all even with high charisma.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Skeletor » Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:43 am

I'm playing a lowbie animal/ooze domains cleric with high Charisma, and it's pretty darn useful, especially in the underdark where there's a collection of animal/aberration/magical beasts/undead/oozes that are all vulnerable. It becomes a "Make this situation better in one click" in a lot of areas.

Haven't been able to affect any oozes yet, I'll keep trying. It messes up driders a lot, and can deal with some annoying creatures (like the poisonous worms at the bone pits)

Overall I'd say it's pretty powerful and useful (got the feat to add better turning and more turning attempts too) but it's pretty random on what it does. It's hard to know if the enemy will get feared, stunned, unsummoned or explode. I've seen all of those effects happen to skeletons. About command, I managed to command 2 squigs that kept having random fights with my summon so that didn't work too well.

I'd love for there to be some more information on what roll led to which result on each monster, so you can strategize on how your power's going to work when you use it.

Also, creatures that get outright banished/unsummoned/leave the area when getting turned give no xp or loot! That made me laugh, but it does make sense, you don't get experience for beating the creature if the creature leaves hehe.

Also, I couldn't expel the controlled squigs from my party after commanding them, and as I said they kept fighting my summon, so i'd say that needs to be checked, and if it ends up being too clunky, maybe command should be removed alltogether? That's just my 2 cents.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by MRFTW » Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:22 am

Apologies if this is the wrong place, as it's domain overhaul related, but not cleric related.

With the elemental domains all being given or due to be given elemental swarm of monotype elementals, it sort of feels like druids and shamans have had their thunder stolen. With how powerful clerics and their spellbook already are, it feels like when it comes to (divine) summoners, clerics and especially healer path clerics have jumped to the top of the tier list with elemental swarm.

Perhaps druids and shamans could be given the ability to drop the 4x monoelemental via /stream?

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Deryliss » Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:05 pm

MRFTW wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:22 am
Apologies if this is the wrong place, as it's domain overhaul related, but not cleric related.

With the elemental domains all being given or due to be given elemental swarm of monotype elementals, it sort of feels like druids and shamans have had their thunder stolen. With how powerful clerics and their spellbook already are, it feels like when it comes to (divine) summoners, clerics and especially healer path clerics have jumped to the top of the tier list with elemental swarm.

Perhaps druids and shamans could be given the ability to drop the 4x monoelemental via /stream?
This should already be the case, as of a few days ago. It was patched in the same time they also made the mono-element swarm do 2x greater and 2x elder instead of 4x elder.
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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by MRFTW » Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:00 pm

Deryliss wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:05 pm
This should already be the case, as of a few days ago. It was patched in the same time they also made the mono-element swarm do 2x greater and 2x elder instead of 4x elder.
I missed that totally. Sorry about that!

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Skeletor » Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:35 pm

Still here with my Silmy ooze cleric.

I got quillfire spell at circle 5.
The spell is pretty useless, be it for druids or clerics., on wands, or whichever form you find it. Also, it inflicts magical damage.
Could it be made to inflict acid damage and have some sort of utility to make it useful for druids/acid domain clerics?
Hitting several targets (like firebrand) or increased damage, or some other effect on-hit (like melfs acid arrow on steroids)

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