Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

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Exordius
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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Exordius » Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:00 pm

Another idea for Ooze domain that i will post as a suggestion once the board opens up. Consider adding the spell Vitriolic Sphere and give it to Ooze domain at lv 7 or 8. Its basically a fireball but acid and it does about twice as more damage.

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Darkness domain

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:40 pm

I am loving the new domain stuff.

I think in comparison to other domains, darkness could use some tweaking.

Shadow conjuration, useful.

It's higher lvls bonus spells for lack of passive abilities not so much.

Dark bolt being bumped up to lvl 6 makes it really unusable. Like maximized dark bolt lvl 9 slot or empowers lvl 8 slot? Competing with a gate slot or other domain useful spells. Considering how much domains like death domain give, I think keeping dark bolt to lvl 5 is fine. (I have similar feelings about shadow plague)

Shadow evocation "meh" the spell flexibility is mute cause its all reflex for damage and you could do other good cleric damage spells instead lighting ball/etc and the shadow storm itself is okish but the two damage types actaully reduces it's effectiveness. Its better than nothing but hard to justify the domain pick. I recommend something like shades instead of greater shadow evocation

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Fire Domain feedback

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:29 pm

Fire domain is element theme domain that lacks elemental swarm. (I was really hoping to have that)

I am assuming this is because domain got "gets damage spells theme" but besides meteor storm, most the spells are lack luster. Especially when your turn a lvl 5 fire brand into a lvl 7 apells or inferno as a lvl 8

Compare this to water domain which gets more passive ability, more useful lower lvl spells, a way better lvl 8 spell (horrid wilting vs inferno, really? Kind of makes up for not having fire's lvl 9 damage spell) and doesn't break the elemental swarm pattern which is prob a lot more useful on a cleric anyways.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Skeletor » Sun Aug 08, 2021 4:19 pm

What about incendiary cloud?
Shadow plague is the lvl 9 darkness domain spell, very useful and I think it would be a direct equivalent for the fire domain, no?

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:05 am

Will there be a write-up to like explain, mechanically, the consequences of the domain changes from a build perspective?

Doesn't have to be detailed - we don't need the new meta explained. I just have no idea how to evaluate any of the new changes, especially in context of deity-restrictions.

Like, overall, this domain overhaul is just straight upgrades? Maybe not always vertical power, but horizontal? Are there downsides I'm not seeing?
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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Kuma » Wed Aug 11, 2021 7:10 am

Skeletor wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:35 pm
Still here with my Silmy ooze cleric.

I got quillfire spell at circle 5.
The spell is pretty useless, be it for druids or clerics., on wands, or whichever form you find it. Also, it inflicts magical damage.
Could it be made to inflict acid damage and have some sort of utility to make it useful for druids/acid domain clerics?
Hitting several targets (like firebrand) or increased damage, or some other effect on-hit (like melfs acid arrow on steroids)
This is almost an argument to buff an array of low level damage spells to be able to still pack relevancy later on in levels - Scorching Ray is an example of a spell that has good uses later on. There's lots of spells like this (Healing Sting, Quillfire, Flame Lash, Sound Burst, Circle of Doom, and the Inflict Wounds line of spells come to mind) that could benefit from a broader update. Keep in mind for when the suggestion box opens again, I guess.

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Skeletor
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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Skeletor » Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:45 pm

Will do! The list is long, yeah.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Skeletor » Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:50 pm

Idk if this is a good idea or if it would be too OP but about FORGE domain, the third lvl spell is Flame lash, It seems a bit of-theme for "Forge".

What about a lvl 3 Hammer of the Gods instead? (Hammer theme for Hammer Time cleric). Would that be too much?

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Yensent » Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:41 pm

Been playing a healing/protection domain healer path cleric...I was initially worried that losing my low level sanctuary would ruin the build but I am very happy to be wrong! Enjoying the changes a lot! I think that maybe illusion/healing would do a better job mechanically (improved invisibility) at supporting safely but Protection/healing feels very viable. I just dinged 20 and wanted to share my positive feedback...I'm a big cleric afficiando in general and I feel like the domain choices are really vast and make me want to try out some wilder ideas in the future.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Vangrant » Sun Aug 15, 2021 4:05 pm

Question, why did the Darkness Domain changed the level 4 spells to an level 5 one?

It feels like it became an lesser domain, honestly i am not an PvP player and darkness domain felt good for dungeon runs.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Yensent » Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:22 pm

Yensent wrote:
Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:41 pm
Been playing a healing/protection domain healer path cleric...I was initially worried that losing my low level sanctuary would ruin the build but I am very happy to be wrong! Enjoying the changes a lot! I think that maybe illusion/healing would do a better job mechanically (improved invisibility) at supporting safely but Protection/healing feels very viable. I just dinged 20 and wanted to share my positive feedback...I'm a big cleric afficiando in general and I feel like the domain choices are really vast and make me want to try out some wilder ideas in the future.
Made that post a bit early...logged on to see my divine protection removed. Going to miss it for sure. Is it going to be replaced with something else?

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by I_Am_King_Midas » Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:57 pm

Kenji wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:20 am
The Undeath domain is admittedly underwhelming for now because the best we can do for an Undead-based spell list is really just giving earlier access to create undead spells.
Hey Kenji,
Could you tell us more about how you view the balance between summon creature vs summon undead? Is this something that you want to have parity? Do you want for them to have similar mechanical purposes but maybe excel in different areas or what ideas do you have behind each?

At the moment it seems like the summon creature line outperforms the summon undead line. It also does not have as many negative RP consequences. I am not saying this should be done but, one approach might even be to lean a bit in the other direction? What if the undead line was a bit stronger on average than summon creature? I could see it being a "tempting" force that evil could use against those who see themselves as good. It could create RP conflict between those who are willing to take questionable actions for the sake of power vs those whose morality is not so easily shaken.

It might be that it's best if they are about equal but, I do think the scale is tilted towards undead would help create more RP than if the inverse is true.

I hope to hear your philosophy on each of these "summoner" approaches.
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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Anomandaris » Sun Aug 15, 2021 7:14 pm

I thought the idea was to keep some of the more potent spells that would add pvp utility out of the mix to avoid making cleric OP? Now they've got access to Weird, Horrid Wilting, Meteor, Avascular along with some very meaningful spell level drops on key spells ranging from FOM to haste to Implosion (on the most recent update alone).

As casters they're simply doing a lot of things better than Wizards with the whole kit taken into consideration. Want to make a necromancer? Go divine. Want to make an evoker? Go divine. Want to make a conj pokemaster, go divine... you can actually heal your thralls! The Cleric can grab some of the most useful arcane kit and stack it on top of an already devastating divine kit.

Now Clerics are just better casters with free Autostill 3... You could already feel the difference playing a Caster FS vs a Sorc as a parallel example. While a Sorcadin is really strong, having heal/harm in the kit along with the epic evo suite makes the FS have more than enough damage output to be a threat but also plays as a support healer, buffer & summoner WAY better. Sure you lose AC from EMA and divine shield, but you're saving a ton of feats and getting a bit made up from free heavy armor.

Am I the only one thinking Clerics are getting too much "mechanical power" here...?

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Yensent
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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Yensent » Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:53 pm

Yensent wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:22 pm
Yensent wrote:
Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:41 pm
Been playing a healing/protection domain healer path cleric...I was initially worried that losing my low level sanctuary would ruin the build but I am very happy to be wrong! Enjoying the changes a lot! I think that maybe illusion/healing would do a better job mechanically (improved invisibility) at supporting safely but Protection/healing feels very viable. I just dinged 20 and wanted to share my positive feedback...I'm a big cleric afficiando in general and I feel like the domain choices are really vast and make me want to try out some wilder ideas in the future.
Made that post a bit early...logged on to see my divine protection removed. Going to miss it for sure. Is it going to be replaced with something else?
Now I feel silly. I have it back today. I'll just let the patches play out for a bit and give some more solid feedback in the future.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:01 pm

I_Am_King_Midas wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:57 pm
Kenji wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:20 am
The Undeath domain is admittedly underwhelming for now because the best we can do for an Undead-based spell list is really just giving earlier access to create undead spells.
Hey Kenji,
Could you tell us more about how you view the balance between summon creature vs summon undead? Is this something that you want to have parity? Do you want for them to have similar mechanical purposes but maybe excel in different areas or what ideas do you have behind each?

At the moment it seems like the summon creature line outperforms the summon undead line. It also does not have as many negative RP consequences. I am not saying this should be done but, one approach might even be to lean a bit in the other direction? What if the undead line was a bit stronger on average than summon creature? I could see it being a "tempting" force that evil could use against those who see themselves as good. It could create RP conflict between those who are willing to take questionable actions for the sake of power vs those whose morality is not so easily shaken.

It might be that it's best if they are about equal but, I do think the scale is tilted towards undead would help create more RP than if the inverse is true.

I hope to hear your philosophy on each of these "summoner" approaches.
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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:04 pm

Vangrant wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 4:05 pm
Question, why did the Darkness Domain changed the level 4 spells to an level 5 one?

It feels like it became an lesser domain, honestly i am not an PvP player and darkness domain felt good for dungeon runs.
illusion domain can still be rpes with darkness themes.

But i do think darkness domain is still lacking subpar poorly lvl damage spells. Like dsrk bolt as a 6th slot competes with harm/heal and empowered maximized takes 8th and 9th slots which is really bad for what those slots can do on base cleric list or another domain.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Kenji » Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:52 pm

Jordenk wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 7:14 pm
I thought the idea was to keep some of the more potent spells that would add pvp utility out of the mix to avoid making cleric OP? Now they've got access to Weird, Horrid Wilting, Meteor, Avascular along with some very meaningful spell level drops on key spells ranging from FOM to haste to Implosion (on the most recent update alone).

As casters they're simply doing a lot of things better than Wizards with the whole kit taken into consideration. Want to make a necromancer? Go divine. Want to make an evoker? Go divine. Want to make a conj pokemaster, go divine... you can actually heal your thralls! The Cleric can grab some of the most useful arcane kit and stack it on top of an already devastating divine kit.

Now Clerics are just better casters with free Autostill 3... You could already feel the difference playing a Caster FS vs a Sorc as a parallel example. While a Sorcadin is really strong, having heal/harm in the kit along with the epic evo suite makes the FS have more than enough damage output to be a threat but also plays as a support healer, buffer & summoner WAY better. Sure you lose AC from EMA and divine shield, but you're saving a ton of feats and getting a bit made up from free heavy armor.

Am I the only one thinking Clerics are getting too much "mechanical power" here...?
A single cleric can't get access to all of the aforementioned spells. Can one go for Undeath, Illusion, Destruction/Fire, or Water domain all at once? No.

Let's first take a look at the spells you mentioned:
Weird: rendered useless with Clarity (unbreachable), Mind Blank (breachable), and lvl 20 Monk
Horrid Wilting: Affects enemies and allies alike, doesn't damage undead. Good for solo undead summoner.
Meteor Swarm: Fire damage and Ref save, circumvented by a combination of good ref save (capped 20 soft ref save, including spellcraft), evasion, and fire/frost shield (50% fire DI), enemies in melee range not affected by Meteor Swarm
Avascular Mass: made partial with Protection from Alignment (lvl1) and Mind Immunity, has short-range and is a touch attack

And then let's look at clerics being casters with free autostill 3 and AC being made up from free heavy armor. The numbers suggest otherwise.
8 str, 18 dex, 14 con, 17 wis (ends at 24 wis), 14 int, 8 cha Cleric Monk can achieve 63 AC while getting Mummy Dust, Greater Ruin, AND Hellball.
Sorcadin can achieve 63 AC but with far better DC and higher con.
14 str, 8 dex, 10 con, 16 wis (ends at 19 wis), 14 int, 16 cha (ends at 22 cha) Cleric Bard can achieve 63 AC while having to spend its epic feats on power attack and divine shield, only getting 1 epic spell. Worst DC and least HP out of all 3.

Heavy armor is kind of a moot concern when cleric/monk (combo'd with healer path) already exists and does a far better job with being dex/wis build, thus better equipped vs touch attacks, and have higher DC for their spells.

What the concern should have been is: What about healer/monk combo'd with all of those aforementioned spells?
They still don't have Time Stop or IGMS. Undeath and Death domain might be more overtuned than intended compared to other domains, but I'm doing so to see how far that goes for offensive caster clerics once some future changes are in. They still need to get in closer range in order to do SoV, Avascular Mass, Harm, Hellball, Harm, and GRuin combo all the while the enemies, if they clarity up just in time to counter SoV, can react to any of the combo spells.

What one should be worried about and have mentioned were:
Wild Mages and their -fate avascular mass that can't be countered and then Hellball, Time Stop, Cloud Kill/Tentacle, GRuin, and IGMS Combo.
Sorcadins with 63 AC and the Hellball, Time Stop, Cloud Kill/Tentacle, GRuin, and IGMS Combo. Let's not forget they're also the best counter-spellers.
Healer/Monks and their free 135-150 temp hp (4.5 free hard con modifier) for itself and every single one of its allies while sitting at 63 AC

I'll have to simply disagree with your assessment that clerics have gained so much mechanical prowess that they outperform other offensive casters now. They have gained some, but mainly more for PvE purposes. Whatever that may be used for PvP have counters and opened up more avenues for offensive clerics, but not adding them altogether to the point where they outshine other casters.

What is already a problem (healer/monks) now gained more arsenal and should have been the focus of your concern. Not heavy armor clerics.

Last but not least, clerics are still not spontaneous casters.

In closing, where clerics do excel is providing a plethora of thematic choices for various types of clerics. And mechanically they'll now be closer without feeling lesser thanks to not being travel/trickery domain clerics anymore.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by chris a gogo » Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:08 pm

Honestly i think giving clerics top tier wizard spells is just a bad idea.

But okay
Horid wilting. why does a cleric necromancer need more mechanical power in fact the only decent (and best) wizard necromancy spell? they shouldn't be getting the best a mage can have but something thematic.

Weird. Why does a cleric need another death spell i mean if they go evo they have implosion, necromancers have destruction is there a need to give an illusion focused cleric a level 9 death spell, why not just give then PhK which is lower DC and much lower level.

Meteor Swarm. Clerics do not need another fire based spell they already have firestorm and flame strike, surely they don't need a level 9 spell from the wizards play list, if you really want them to have yet another fire spell why not give them bombardment which is already divine and would fit the "domains" descriptions perfectly

Avascular mass. Again why does a cleric need another touch attack death spell they already have alot of death spells and the best damage touch attack in Harm.

On top of this there is the fact that every time a mage casts these spells which are the best they can get it costs the character gold costs a cleric nothing to spam them constantly.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Kenji » Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:14 pm

chris a gogo wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:08 pm
On top of this there is the fact that every time a mage casts these spells which are the best they can get it costs the character gold costs a cleric nothing to spam them constantly.
Image
chris a gogo wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:08 pm
Horid wilting. why does a cleric necromancer need more mechanical power in fact the only decent (and best) wizard necromancy spell? they shouldn't be getting the best a mage can have but something thematic.

Weird. Why does a cleric need another death spell i mean if they go evo they have implosion, necromancers have destruction is there a need to give an illusion focused cleric a level 9 death spell, why not just give then PhK which is lower DC and much lower level.

Meteor Swarm. Clerics do not need another fire based spell they already have firestorm and flame strike, surely they don't need a level 9 spell from the wizards play list, if you really want them to have yet another fire spell why not give them bombardment which is already divine and would fit the "domains" descriptions perfectly

Avascular mass. Again why does a cleric need another touch attack death spell they already have alot of death spells and the best damage touch attack in Harm.
Edit: Here, have a read at some of the PnP materials:
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Water_Domain
https://www.enworld.org/threads/cleric- ... tb.471545/ (search for Illusion Domain and Suffering Domain)
https://www.enworld.org/threads/cleric- ... tb.471545/ (search for Deathbound Domain)

I myself would actually like the answer to why, as well. Please ask the original D&D sourcebook writers why Water Domain and Suffering Domain clerics have Horrid Wilting, why Illusion Domain has Weird, and etc. I'm sure they'll have a more satisfying answer for both you and me.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by chris a gogo » Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:44 pm

by Kenji » 16 Aug 2021 23:14

chris a gogo wrote: ↑16 Aug 2021 23:08
On top of this there is the fact that every time a mage casts these spells which are the best they can get it costs the character gold costs a cleric nothing to spam them constantly.
Image
There ive bolded the word gold for you as spell components cost either time and effort or gold to acquire, where as Piety costs nothing as you gain it constantly by just standing around or by killing the things that your using it on.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Kenji » Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:49 pm

chris a gogo wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:44 pm
by Kenji » 16 Aug 2021 23:14

chris a gogo wrote: ↑16 Aug 2021 23:08
On top of this there is the fact that every time a mage casts these spells which are the best they can get it costs the character gold costs a cleric nothing to spam them constantly.
Image
There ive bolded the word gold for you as spell components cost either time and effort or gold to acquire, where as Piety costs nothing as you gain it constantly by just standing around or by killing the things that your using it on.
By that standard, one could argue gold is gained by standing around doing nothing while your summon kills everything and you loot everything, no?

But the difference is, one could craft hundreds of spell components beforehand and are likely to use up all the spell slots before the spell components are gone. Clerics can likely use up all of the piety before using up the spell slots.

You're also derailing the thread, I don't know to what end, but please keep your feedback focused on the domain changes itself rather than arbitrary mechanics that aren't relevant to this thread.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Drowboy » Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:53 pm

None of the spells you're saying are op are worth casting instead of the spells clerics gets in those spots by default except (big maybe) avascular. This is both a bad hill to die on and not where I'd direct "is this too strong?" Style feedback. Try "war domain weapon profs and downleveled divine power," might get you more mileage.

(FS still feels better and at a guess a good number of these are to differentiate the two and make cleric feel a bit nicer vs spont casting.)
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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Exordius » Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:44 am

I for one am loving the changes. I don't know whether the spells are great or weak as some say but it does not matter... simply having the ability to play a mage/cleric without having to multiclass and suck at everything is a blessing.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Apothys » Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:59 pm

LIke to suggest giving the Moon Domain which is usually attributed with the dietys Eilistraee • Hathor • Hiatea • Malar • Sehanine Moonbow • Selûne • Sharindlar with good aligned deities this turns or destroys Lycanthropes.

However the evil dieties like Malar would not want to do that. Perhaps if the deities attributed with Lycanthropy could control them or even calm them if they are plyer characters, allowing them to become more controllable for a short period of time. I think this could generate rp nd be a unique feature.

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Re: Cleric Domain Overhaul

Post by Kenji » Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:33 am

I_Am_King_Midas wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:57 pm
Kenji wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:20 am
The Undeath domain is admittedly underwhelming for now because the best we can do for an Undead-based spell list is really just giving earlier access to create undead spells.
Hey Kenji,
Could you tell us more about how you view the balance between summon creature vs summon undead? Is this something that you want to have parity? Do you want for them to have similar mechanical purposes but maybe excel in different areas or what ideas do you have behind each?

At the moment it seems like the summon creature line outperforms the summon undead line. It also does not have as many negative RP consequences. I am not saying this should be done but, one approach might even be to lean a bit in the other direction? What if the undead line was a bit stronger on average than summon creature? I could see it being a "tempting" force that evil could use against those who see themselves as good. It could create RP conflict between those who are willing to take questionable actions for the sake of power vs those whose morality is not so easily shaken.

It might be that it's best if they are about equal but, I do think the scale is tilted towards undead would help create more RP than if the inverse is true.

I hope to hear your philosophy on each of these "summoner" approaches.
Didn't mean to skip through this one. While an adequately asked question pertaining to pre-epic summon types, I don't think it is within the purview of domains alone. This might warrant its own feedback thread to discuss the rest of the summons throughout the different tiers.

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