Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

CHBanger
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2021 11:11 pm

Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by CHBanger » Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:24 pm

Thank you to those who provided feedback. I'll have to think about the direction I want to go in.

User avatar
WanderingPoet
Posts: 759
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:51 am

Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by WanderingPoet » Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:03 am

Earth Domain Comment on level 8 Bombardment:

Bombardment could use a bit of a buff. It's 10d8 party friendly physical damage with a possible 1 round daze on failed reflex save versus Hammer of the Gods which is 10d8 divine damage with a possible 1-6 round daze with failed will save.

Same damage, worse daze, both are party friendly, and arguably Will Save for half is better than Reflex Save for half. But Bombardment is 4 levels higher than Hammer of the Gods.

Less of an issue for druids as they don't have the alternative, but maybe it could get more damage or longer daze or even a guarenteed daze with a cooldown like WoF works for blind?

-------------
General note:
It'd be nice if clerics had he choice for elemental swarm between their domain stream and the streamless summoning of 4 elder elementals. It's not a bid stretch given they can already summon an elder/ancient from the summon creature line. Though I can understand not allowing domains to summon other stream lines.
Path_of_Play wrote:Fear, intimidation, anger - All these, the tyrant's tools.
Laughter, encouragement, play - not simply just for fools.
These tools reveal,
More is learned,
From another in an hour of play,
Than in a year of contention.

User avatar
Skeletor
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 165
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:59 pm

Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Skeletor » Fri Jul 22, 2022 5:21 pm

It just occurred to me.

Wouldn't it make sense for "Vermin domain" clerics to be allowed to take the "Spider" totem path, and for "Animal domain" clerics to be able to take the remaining ones? It should available at character creation and be similar to ranger totem, no transformations or stat bonuses, just summons switched.

It could be especially useful for clerics of Lolth, so their summons would be turned to spiders.

Edit: As it is now, animal clerics that don't summon fierce animals and clerics of lolth that can't summon battle-worthy spiders :?

evilkittenofdoom
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:23 am
Location: Ready to pounce at the least suspected moment.

Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by evilkittenofdoom » Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:27 pm

So, I'm going over every Domain's spell list and I'ma just point out the ones that seem really out of line. Overall a good 65-80% of it is really solid or at least makes sense and has some outlying usefulness, but there are some parts that just .. well... aren't good at all.
  • Air (6) Sound Burst - 4 innate levels higher for no real reason. Perhaps give them Sound Lance here instead?

    Animal (6) Awaken - Does this even work for anything that they can do? They don't inherently get an Animal Companion for it to target.

    Darkness (4) Silence - Innate 2 naturally for Cleric.

    Evil (1) is blank, which is kinda lame. Evil (9) is also blank which is super lame.

    Fire (3) Flame Lash - Considering that Scorching Ray is one level lower for the Fire domain, Scorching Ray gives you the same mileage for less.

    Forge (1) Deafening Clang - Considering that Deafening Clang is already their Domain Power, why is it also in their spellbook?

    Good (1) and (9) blank just like Evil, super lame.

    Healing (6) and Healing (8) both give Regeneration, making the spell fit in 3 different innate levels inherently. I'm not sure if that's intentional to provide the flexibility, but honestly it seems overkill. Greater Restoration would be nice in a 6, but that also might be too much. Regardless, having it 3 spots is really weird.

    Magic (2) Magic Missile - Magic Missile in a level 2 slot is really meh.

    Magic (8) Silence - Silence is inherently a level 2 spell for Clerics anyway, so I have no idea why it is also in a level 8 slot here.

    Plant (9) is empty.

    Protection Passive immunity to ILMS; how does this fare with the changes to Force DR? I'm assuming it counts like a specialist, which would make it fine.

    Storm (4) Given Lightning Bolt and Call Lightning in the previous two levels, Scintillating Sphere seems a little lackluster.

    Storm (9) is empty

    Strength Domain spells seem a little awkward. Notably they get the Bigby line, which doesn't feel very thematically appropriate.

    Sun (8) Undeath to Death - Another one awkwardly in a higher slot than usual for the class, amplified more by how it also sits in an absolutely beautiful level 4 slot for them already.

    Travel has Slow listed 3 times, Haste and Freedom listed twice, and it gets Slow as its Domain Power besides. Travel really needs some added variety for its Domain spells.

    Vermin (9) Web - this is the same spell as it gets in its level 1 slot, which is beyond disappointing.

    War (6) Slow - it seems a bit high, but admittedly it'd be hard to push it lower in the list. Perhaps something entirely different to put here?
{Old FL} Mok, Goblin Desserter. Terror of the Underdark, and he who will be sorely missed.

Justin Xaer - Handle with Care
Moka - Inheritor of the Spirit of Mok
Irongron wrote: Sadly investment and objectivity may have an inverse ratio.

I am War
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2021 1:59 am

Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by I am War » Sun Jul 24, 2022 2:08 pm

Something to keep in mind is that higher domain spell level also mean higher DC

Domain changes were also done over the years and some are bound to be more for theme than actual function I imagine. There was word about awaken being able to affect summons or future plant/nature streams but that has yet to be implemented. I guess awaken remained without purpose.

User avatar
Skeletor
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 165
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:59 pm

Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Skeletor » Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:38 pm

evilkittenofdoom wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:27 pm

Vermin (9) Web - this is the same spell as it gets in its level 1 slot, which is beyond disappointing.

War (6) Slow - it seems a bit high, but admittedly it'd be hard to push it lower in the list. Perhaps something entirely different to put here?[/list]

Sorry, but do you know just how powerful a circle 9 web spell becomes? How high the DC is?
Also, it does not allow for spell resistance.
You basically cast this and everyone who fails is stuck, and if they succeed, they probably take a few more ultra-high DC saves before they get out of the area. Being stuck in a web sets your dexterity to 3, so that reduces your future saves too.

Adittionaly, it has a momentary "Interrupt" so if you're casting the moment you get stuck, that action is cancelled.
Furthemore, a cleric can also cast Freedom, so they can move freely within their own web, and they can help their allies with the same spell.

I'm sorry, but circle 9 web is just as much op as a good-ol-fashioned storm of vengeance.

evilkittenofdoom
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:23 am
Location: Ready to pounce at the least suspected moment.

Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by evilkittenofdoom » Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:49 pm

I didn't realize the DC scaled. I'm used to the DC using the innate level
{Old FL} Mok, Goblin Desserter. Terror of the Underdark, and he who will be sorely missed.

Justin Xaer - Handle with Care
Moka - Inheritor of the Spirit of Mok
Irongron wrote: Sadly investment and objectivity may have an inverse ratio.

User avatar
Kenji
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 1496
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 9:14 am
Location: Mechanics Dungeon

Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Kenji » Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:05 pm

evilkittenofdoom wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:27 pm
Evil (1) is blank, which is kinda lame. Evil (9) is also blank which is super lame.
Good (1) and (9) blank just like Evil, super lame.
Got any suggestions on what should go in there?

In the meanwhile our wiki entry will also reflect this until they get filled in:
Image
evilkittenofdoom wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:27 pm
Healing (6) and Healing (8) both give Regeneration, making the spell fit in 3 different innate levels inherently. I'm not sure if that's intentional to provide the flexibility, but honestly it seems overkill. Greater Restoration would be nice in a 6, but that also might be too much. Regardless, having it 3 spots is really weird.
Deryliss wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:00 pm
Healing
The Healing domain is amazing. Yea, empowered healing is nice, but even before the domain change we used to say 'it's not THAT great, best take Death or something to actually be offensive'. What Healing does now is enable massive amounts of spell slot manipulation by giving you Healing Circle on 3 and Regeneration on 6. Everything else is just gravy. and I now love the domain to bits. With all this spell slot manipulation, the Healing Domain IS an offensive domain by proxy. It allows you to juggle in powerful spells on the higher slots that before would have overwhelmed your spell slot availability (8 especially, where a Healer-Path cleric would normally slot a bunch of Extended Regenerates). 10/10 would pick again.

User avatar
Ork
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Ork » Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:31 pm

Now you've really broken cleric! Honestly give me WoF in both spell levels please.

Eyeliner
Posts: 479
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:27 am

Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Eyeliner » Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:35 pm

I assumed "extended Gate" was Evil and Good's level 9 spell.

User avatar
Party in the forest at midnight
Posts: 1384
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:55 pm

Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:26 am

I've been playing a cloistered cleric. My feedback is based around the idea that a cloistered cleric gives up its martial abilities in favor of spell casting, so spell casting should be the focus of the class. Right now the path feels like it falls short of that and is a bit clunky.

There's two main things wrong with cloistered cleric. And a third lesser issue summarized with a screenshot.

The first thing is the spell refund system is unreliable and not that fun. It feels bad to not get a spell refund. In contrast with arcane flux, it feels good when it procs. I get excited, I think "yay now I can cast something" and wait for the right moment to do it. I might be able to cast more free spells with the cloistered system, but it doesn't feel as good to play. I'm slowly whittling away at my spells.

I can also cast a wider variety of spells with the arcane flux system. I've been leveling a wizard lately and arcane flux is letting me slot spells just to experiment with them once I get the arcane flux proc. It's a change in mindset, I'm not slotting spells to cast them, I'm slotting them so once I get a proc I get to cast that spell. It's an interesting dynamic and is letting me experiment and play around with magic.
I also feel incentivized to cast cantrips and interact with pve encounters, rather than staying invisible behind my summon the entire time. Because once every few fights I get to do something fun and cool.
It also helps that wizards get infinicast spells as their greater spell focus bonus. I'm casting lots of magic all of the time now and it's enjoyable. I feel like an actual arcane caster now.

In contrast, with the inverted percentage system, I am always slowly burning down all of my spell uses. It's unreliable, so I'll still be preparing a whole lot of casts of whatever spell I want to be using in combat. I don't get to experiment or have variety.
Cloistered's spell refund feels a lot like dweomercrafting, where I'll be sitting here wondering how I failed a 70% roll 3 times in a row. Except now I'm out of spells and I'm stuck waddling behind my elemental.



The second thing that is wrong with cloistered path is it runs entirely off cleric domains.
When Ropes redid domains, it seems like he balanced them all to offer something unique that other domains wouldn't do. And a lot of that revolves around buffs.

The issues is, that system of design doesn't synergize with the cloistered cleric path, which has spell refund that only works with domain spells. So this shoehorns cloistered clerics into spending at least one of their domains on something that has a decent damaging spell at a low spell circle. There's only a handful of domains that fit this, which means cloistered clerics probably are going to have to take a domain that doesn't fit the character or RP.

Speaking to some other cloistered path clerics, forge is an incredibly good choice because it has hammer of the gods as a domain spell at circle 3. So while all clerics get hammer of the gods, only forge clerics get it as part of the spell refund mechanic. And the spell was recently buffed to do 10d8 damage. And that's divine damage, so it doesn't run into the problem inflict/harm spells have where NEP blocks it.

My domains currently are magic and illusion. Illusion I use for invisibility and RP. It gets color spray at a high refund, and phantasmal killer at a 60% refund. Phantasmal killer is a depressing spell and not fun for pve. It does 3d6 damage and has a chance to kill things. I could take the mind domain for mind fog to boost the effectiveness of phantasmal killer, but mind fog is a coinflip refund rate, and the rest of the mind domain spells are crowd control options. So neither domain has any decent damage spells.

Magic was recently buffed to have greater spell breach on a cooldown which is really cool, and it has some absolutely amazing utility options. But it's really lacking in damage spells. Magic missile is a garbage spell that isn't even good when it's level-appropriate. Lesser missile storm is 10d6 damage at circle 5, making it worse than hammer of the gods, and in competition with much more useful spells in that spell circle. It doesn't even have additional cc that hammer of the gods offers. And lesser missile storm is at a 50% refund rate, while hammer of the gods is a 70% refund rate.

A lot of domains are like this, where they give really good buff options spread out among different domains. But cloistered isn't about buffs, buffs are useless with the spell refund system. Most buffs last just as long as divine power, so getting a refund on them doesn't matter.




The third thing wrong with cloistered path is it makes your character look like this if you want to fully utilize spell refund.
Image
Please let me turn it off, and/or let me pick what colour it is. Starfish recently added commands to change what colour the light spell glows with, what if I could pick the color divine favor gave me?
From Starfish:
==============
We now have different streams of colour for the Light and Continual Flame spells:
Green: -gre
White: -wht
Yellow: -yel
Orange: -ora
Red: -cri
Purple: -pur
Blue: -blu



Suggestions for cloistered path improvement:
:arrow: Let spell refund work with all cleric spells, regardless of domain. The downside of this is it still runs into the problem with not being reliable, I'll still be slotting several casts of the same spell. But it will solve the issue of not all domains having damage options.

:arrow: If not that, than rebalance domains so every domain gets a decent damage spell at a low enough circle that it has a high chance at refund. This probably involves rebalancing spells to give them better scaling damage.

:arrow: Give cloistered path its own version of arcane reflux. Call it divine impulse or something. The only critique I have of arcane flux is it currently doesn't proc frequently enough. It would be nice if it procced one or two groups of enemies. Currently it seems to happen about once every five encounters.

:arrow: Enable greater spell focus infinicast spells for cloistered path clerics.

Exordius
Posts: 542
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:42 pm

Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Exordius » Mon Jul 25, 2022 3:43 am

Not sure if you know but if you use both divine favor and divine power it gives you 100% for lv 1 spells and so on. So if you say have fire domain, that's unlimited burning hands and nearly unlimited scorching rays. Also yeah letting you change the color you glow with that spell would be nice.

User avatar
Party in the forest at midnight
Posts: 1384
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:55 pm

Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Mon Jul 25, 2022 3:50 am

I don't use divine favor because it makes me look horrible.

User avatar
Kenji
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 1496
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 9:14 am
Location: Mechanics Dungeon

Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Kenji » Mon Jul 25, 2022 5:19 am

Players will soon be able to customize Divine Favor aura color via light stream commands by DM Starfish.

User avatar
Party in the forest at midnight
Posts: 1384
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:55 pm

Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:47 pm

Holy snugglebear yes I am looking forward to trying it out once the servers reset, thank you!

Leika
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2022 4:28 am

Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Leika » Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:24 pm

I’ve also been playing a lot of cloistered recently. It’s been one of the more enjoyable experiences I've had on Arelith.

Regarding combat, I agree with “Party in the forest at midnight.” It feels like you are very strongly encouraged to pick domains (e.g. fire, cold, forge, storm, etc.) that have low circle damage spells. Or, rely on summons and melee combat. The former shoehorns you into venerating certain deities. The latter feels incongruous with the spirit of the path.

If there were something else to do at range, then I think the whole conundrum of relying on a low circle offensive spell would be moot. I don’t know what to suggest; Perhaps, some type of ranged damage cantrip unique to cloistered?

On a positive note, the ability to spontaneous cast domain spells feels amazing. Having a whole suite of utility and funky spells at your fingertips is exactly what I signed up for.

User avatar
Kenji
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 1496
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 9:14 am
Location: Mechanics Dungeon

Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Kenji » Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:34 pm

Sacred Flames is in the works. Here are the deets:
Sacred Flame
Spell Level: Cleric 0, Favored Soul 0
Innate level: 0
School: evocation
Descriptor(s): Positive
Component(s): verbal, somatic
Range: Medium (20 meters)
Area of Effect / Target: single
Duration: instantaneous
Save: none
Spell Resistance: yes

Description: Inflicts 1d6 divine damage for every 3 caster levels to a single target creature.
The GSF providing infinicast will be specific for wizards and sorcerers as that has always been their feature. Cleric and FS have their version of infinicast, albeit not always 100%, but far more varied than a handful of GSF feat spells.

Any further arcane caster feedback should be its own thread, though, as a gentle reminder.

User avatar
Skeletor
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 165
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:59 pm

Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Skeletor » Mon Jul 25, 2022 5:22 pm

Kenji wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:05 pm

Got any suggestions on what should go in there?
Possible lvl 1 choices for Good and Evil
-"Bless water" (turns a stack of water into holy water)
-"Detect alignment" as a spell?

evilkittenofdoom
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:23 am
Location: Ready to pounce at the least suspected moment.

Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by evilkittenofdoom » Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:18 pm

Evil (1) I could argue Ghoul Touch could work.
Good (1) we could put Aid there.

for (9) on both sides Dismissal I could make a case for being sensible as a tool for them to banish out the opposition's summons.
{Old FL} Mok, Goblin Desserter. Terror of the Underdark, and he who will be sorely missed.

Justin Xaer - Handle with Care
Moka - Inheritor of the Spirit of Mok
Irongron wrote: Sadly investment and objectivity may have an inverse ratio.

Exordius
Posts: 542
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:42 pm

Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Exordius » Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:51 pm

Any ETA on when Sacred Flame will be ready?

User avatar
Kenji
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 1496
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 9:14 am
Location: Mechanics Dungeon

Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Kenji » Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:40 pm

Soon™

Exordius
Posts: 542
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:42 pm

Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Exordius » Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:44 pm

Sounds good, can't wait lol. :mrgreen:

User avatar
Party in the forest at midnight
Posts: 1384
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:55 pm

Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Wed Jul 27, 2022 2:11 am

It's been a few resets and I can't change my divine favor glow yet. Is it live or still in queue to go in?

msheeler
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 367
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:32 pm

Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by msheeler » Wed Jul 27, 2022 4:25 pm

The servers just reset and I am testing again. It was posted before the code was actually sent to live I think, but it has been over two days now.

msheeler
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 367
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:32 pm

Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by msheeler » Wed Jul 27, 2022 4:31 pm

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 2:11 am
It's been a few resets and I can't change my divine favor glow yet. Is it live or still in queue to go in?
It works now.

Post Reply