Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:05 pm

NICE, thank you very much!

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Kenji » Fri Jul 29, 2022 4:00 pm

Preview for the new path. Let me know if there are any concerns or further suggestions.
Path of the Seeker
INSERT FLAVOR TEXT
  • Weapon Proficiency: Rogue
  • Armor Proficiency: Light, Shield
  • Special:
    - Divine Favor and Divine Power are now double duration and can be extended again for a total of 4 times the original duration
    - Wearing Heavy Armor or wielding Tower Shield will incur a Spell Failure chance penalty.
    - Gains Improved Sneak Attack every 3 levels of cleric
    - +3 CL
    - Can't Summon
    - If multiclassed to Ranger, 2/3 cleric levels count towards dual-wield progression (ITWF at 9 levels of Cleric, assuming 3 levels of rangers)
    - If multiclassed to Rogue, 2/3 cleric levels count towards specialty weapon progression (24 levels of cleric gets +1 AB for Finessable Weapons, assuming 3 levels of rogue)
    - If multiclassed to Monk, 2/3 cleric levels count towards Ki Strike progression, Improved Ki Strike 4 gained at level 24
    - +2 DC on Divination and Illusion spells
    - While Divine Power is active, refund Divination and Illusion spells

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by -XXX- » Fri Jul 29, 2022 4:12 pm

Looks neat!
However, not including some favoured enemy synergy would have been a missed opportunity there IMO.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Kenji » Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:33 pm

Favored enemy being very hardcoded to rangers might make the addition more to the purpose of flavor over anything mechanical, which is fine imo. If seekers are to have FE synergies with rangers it’ll likely have to come in the form of Studied Enemies.

Given a Cleric 22/Ranger 5/Rogue 3 build it’ll have roughly have 4 SE available with a bonus +2 to damage, detection, stealthy, and etc to favored enemies.

Kalo also suggested Seeker’s synergy with Inquisition Paladin for warlock detection which I might look into later.

Seekers should also synergize with assassins, though details remain to be determined.

Personally the path of seeker should be a blend of divination/illusion caster and sneak attacker. This can probably be achieved by very long duration of divine power but without the APR boost (much like shaman) and the same short duration divine favor from warpriest.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by hugolino » Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:53 pm

Your version of Seeker seems more effective and practical than mine, though I'm not an expert on the Arelith zeitgeist. I didn't anticipate the sneak attack, but I concede it is probably the best use of the Seeker's talents. (A few of my inspirations for the Seeker archetype were the characters of the Biblical prophets Elijah and Daniel, Friar William of Baskerville from Umberto Eco's mystery novel "The Name of the Rose", the "Dogs in the Vineyard" tabletop RPG, and of course the tropes of the Inquisitor whether as villain or antihero. Hence, sneak attack hadn't come to mind. )

I also didn't expect the synergy with monk, but that does enable one to pursue a clerical Sherlock Holmes sort of character or - more native for the setting - an Ilmateri Seeker, so I definitely approve.

Getting rid of summons seems entirely appropriate, and at least Animal Empathy via Ranger may enable one to have a canine or some sort of animal friend.

Will there still be the variant alignment rules for Seeker clerics? The reason those were proposed is so a Seeker could be arguably possible for any deity.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Kenji » Sat Jul 30, 2022 12:03 am

I imagine we all want the paths to cater to as many concepts as possible, therefore there’ll be no alignment restrictions.

I also wanted the Seeker path to cater to both a caster build and a physical attack build (albeit melee or ranged). But the lack of summons may pretty much make all seekers melee or ranged build rather than caster due to the lack of sustained damage source. It may warrant more discussion, but a high AC caster build is also a thing, so we’ll see.

The concepts for Seekers can be of all kinds:
a lore seeker of lost knowledge for Oghma
an agent for the church of Bane and Mask
a devout Ilmatari tracker who goes after slavers and oppressors

It also begs the question (one that I asked myself): why cant the above concepts simply play as ranger, rogue, or assassin?
The seeker path is under the base class Cleric and ultimately a clergy of a certain deity. The seeker is more than a follower of a deity’s dogma, but at this point a manifestation of the deity’s power. The concepts and the builds are then differentiated by what the mechanics enable them to do.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by hugolino » Sat Jul 30, 2022 2:05 am

Kenji wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 12:03 am
I also wanted the Seeker path to cater to both a caster build and a physical attack build (albeit melee or ranged). But the lack of summons may pretty much make all seekers melee or ranged build rather than caster due to the lack of sustained damage source. It may warrant more discussion, but a high AC caster build is also a thing, so we’ll see.
I wonder if this can partly be mitigated for all paths by making Sacred Flame factor in Wisdom to its damage. Alternately, Wisdom could stabilize the effect in some way, such as allowing it to penetrate resistance based on Wisdom or reducing variability. Another idea is to shift the nature of part of the damage or the parameters of the spell depending on the path.

The goal, of course, would not be to make caster clerics big damage dealers based on a cantrip but rather to raise the floor (not the ceiling) to help a caster cleric of any path have a more consistent base damage. But your announced plan for Sacred Flame already does this.

I will ponder this more. Surely there are other options than Sacred Flame.
Kenji wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 12:03 am
The concepts for Seekers can be of all kinds:
a lore seeker of lost knowledge for Oghma
an agent for the church of Bane and Mask
a devout Ilmatari tracker who goes after slavers and oppressors
Agreed. I love how the path can stretch from hero to villain and everything in between
Kenji wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 12:03 am
It also begs the question (one that I asked myself): why cant the above concepts simply play as ranger, rogue, or assassin?
A good question. In one sense, this path is just another variant on an already existing theme. But it a strong variant theme, and it also makes mechanically viable concepts that I have been assured more than once on the Arelith Discord isn't really possible right now unless you want to suffer a lot
Kenji wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 12:03 am
The seeker path is under the base class Cleric and ultimately a clergy of a certain deity. The seeker is more than a follower of a deity’s dogma, but at this point a manifestation of the deity’s power. The concepts and the builds are then differentiated by what the mechanics enable them to do.
From a cynical perspective, a Seeker could also be a manifestation of fanaticism for the deity and its ideaks, whether for good or ill. Yet... The cynic loses here, because - as you note - the cleric wields the deity's power. So he or she is not truly fringe or marginalized but, in some way, tolerated or approved and thus an unusually raw manifestation of the deity's power that is less polished and glossy than normal. If so, that makes it more potentially intriguing - deities exposed
Last edited by hugolino on Sat Jul 30, 2022 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by hugolino » Sat Jul 30, 2022 3:50 am

Is it feasible to change a few non-cantrip, single target, short range (30 ft and/or touch), divine spells to grant bonus damage (capped by caster's casting ability - Wisdom) to Seeker clerics if - in game engine terms - the target returns TRUE for GetFlatFooted()? That might grant caster Seekers potential burst damage and also be a unique feature.
Last edited by hugolino on Sat Jul 30, 2022 1:41 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by magistrasa » Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:03 am

sneak attack with a spell
Seems like the sort of thing an actual class should do, rather than a path

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by hugolino » Sat Jul 30, 2022 1:37 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:03 am
sneak attack with a spell
Seems like the sort of thing an actual class should do, rather than a path
Why? In many tabletop roleplaying games and in video games, "subclasses," "archetypes," "orders, " and such (the names vary) can have unique and even potent features. On the other hand, if you mean this is a feature you'd like other spellcasting classes to have access to and not just cleric, then that is another separate issue

It would be possible to check if the caster is not casting from an item and whether the caster has sneak attack feats, then - if so - the touch spell adds bonus damage against a flat footed target based on the caster's level of sneak attack and capped by the casting ability, such as Intelligence for wizards or Wisdom for clerics. Then it is universal and not class specific
Last edited by hugolino on Sat Jul 30, 2022 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by msheeler » Sat Jul 30, 2022 2:23 pm

Kenji wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 12:03 am
I also wanted the Seeker path to cater to both a caster build and a physical attack build (albeit melee or ranged). But the lack of summons may pretty much make all seekers melee or ranged build rather than caster due to the lack of sustained damage source. It may warrant more discussion, but a high AC caster build is also a thing, so we’ll see.
What if, I am not entirely sure this is possible, but what if a seeker used wisdom as AB and AC? Bonus damage can come from strength and no additional AC bonus from dexterity? This would make them some sort of rogue/monk like variant melee character.

This mitigates the need for a caster variant to dip monk just for AC.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by hugolino » Sat Jul 30, 2022 2:38 pm

msheeler wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 2:23 pm
What if, I am not entirely sure this is possible, but what if a seeker used wisdom as AB and AC?
My impression in general is that NWN persistent worlds aren't fond of a single ability granting both defense and attack bonus. Even on Arelith, there have been many restrictions put on what defenses stack and how much, and Dexterity-based combat has been constrained

Also, your proposal doesn't enable a caster cleric so much as create another melee combatant. The caster's Wisdom is being put to use but not in spellcasting

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by msheeler » Sat Jul 30, 2022 3:06 pm

True, but with out some sort of consideration you force either a caster that is max dex, and moderate wisdom just so they can get AC, or you force a monk dip for wisdom AC.

If it makes more sense then perhaps shift the AC bonus from dex to wisdom and leave ab as either strength or dex. The issue here being that you now shift the problem from being a caster build to being a melee build that needs two focus on 2 or 3 stats. Sort of like spellsword in that matter where you are str/int or dex/int build.

Personally I would rather see a lean towards a caster build in management of stats since they will have to rely on maximizing wisdom to get as many spells as possible.

Not to mention we already have a war priest path that focuses on melee, and to that extent I understand where Kenji is asking why cant this 'role' be fulfilled by some other class. After all we also have a path that already focuses on spell casting.

One thing I have noticed is that there is something in cleric builds that really caters to a fair bit of the stuff you need for tracking - high wisdom gets you lots of spot, ESF divination, domain bonuses. Synergizing this with Ranger, or allowing it some sort of ranger-esk like bonus to tracking could further this even more. In that sense a sort of hunter/tracker type cleric path has some really neat possibilities.

I don't see this as the 'magehound' or 'executioner' style path. To me, at least, I sort of envision this as the one who finds the target and calls in the proper people to handle that matter.

But, this is just my opinion and thoughts.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by hugolino » Sat Jul 30, 2022 3:31 pm

msheeler wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 3:06 pm
True, but with out some sort of consideration you force either a caster that is max dex, and moderate wisdom just so they can get AC, or you force a monk dip for wisdom AC.
True. That seems to be the case with a caster cleric of any path.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by hugolino » Sat Jul 30, 2022 3:45 pm

msheeler wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 3:06 pm
I don't see this as the 'magehound' or 'executioner' style path. To me, at least, I sort of envision this as the one who finds the target and calls in the proper people to handle that matter.
That sounds potentially like the high AC (low damage) caster build that Kenji mentioned.

Edit: Except I guess you may be asking for full caster level, some tracking, and Wisdom to AC.
Last edited by hugolino on Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Sat Jul 30, 2022 4:54 pm

msheeler wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 3:06 pm
True, but with out some sort of consideration you force either a caster that is max dex, and moderate wisdom just so they can get AC, or you force a monk dip for wisdom AC.

If it makes more sense then perhaps shift the AC bonus from dex to wisdom and leave ab as either strength or dex. The issue here being that you now shift the problem from being a caster build to being a melee build that needs two focus on 2 or 3 stats. Sort of like spellsword in that matter where you are str/int or dex/int build.

Personally I would rather see a lean towards a caster build in management of stats since they will have to rely on maximizing wisdom to get as many spells as possible.

Not to mention we already have a war priest path that focuses on melee, and to that extent I understand where Kenji is asking why cant this 'role' be fulfilled by some other class. After all we also have a path that already focuses on spell casting.

One thing I have noticed is that there is something in cleric builds that really caters to a fair bit of the stuff you need for tracking - high wisdom gets you lots of spot, ESF divination, domain bonuses. Synergizing this with Ranger, or allowing it some sort of ranger-esk like bonus to tracking could further this even more. In that sense a sort of hunter/tracker type cleric path has some really neat possibilities.

I don't see this as the 'magehound' or 'executioner' style path. To me, at least, I sort of envision this as the one who finds the target and calls in the proper people to handle that matter.

But, this is just my opinion and thoughts.
How would you imagine this would work, what armor/equipment would you use? And what kind of stat spread would you use? It's very difficult getting hide/ms to fit on a cleric, which would be one of the thematic things with the path. And being melee oriented you're going to want disc. So you're probably looking at 14 to 16 int, 18 wis (for your wis AC suggestion), and at least 14 con. Cleric is also feat starved, I'm trying to envision how to balance combat and casting feats. If the focus is invis, you're probably taking the illusion spell focus line to make the most out of it. Then there's also epic skill focus costs. If you take hide/ms, you take the esf for it. If you take disc, you take the esf for it. These are all-in skills.

Otherwise, as-is, what would the stat spread look like? Probably the same 14-16 int, 14-16 wis, 14+ con, and whatever you can afford into dex (at least it seems like the theme is meant to be a dex cleric)? Having low str on a class that needs armor is really painful so you'd probably want 2 points into str at least to try and bump it to 10, low carry weight really sucks and I do not recommend it.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by msheeler » Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:06 pm

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 4:54 pm
How would you imagine this would work, what armor/equipment would you use? And what kind of stat spread would you use?
I'll preface this with - I am not good at min/max or optimized builds.

But . . .

If we were looking at a build with melee in mind then I am thinking you might go something like

25Cl / 5Ra
Str - 10
Dex - 16 +2 gift (dumping in all our level up stats to end at 23 dex)
Con - 10
Wis - 16 +2 gift
Int - 14
Cha - 8

Max Concentration, Discipline, Hide, Lore, Move Silently, and Spot. This should leave about 68 more points free to pick what ever else you might be interested in.

Gear would just be any that would enhance those skills really. You'll get 4apr, 5 if you dual wield. Meh AB and Damage, but you are a light melee character not a front liner. You could stock TS potions if you need to add some damage here and there. You could also maybe swap Rogue in for Ranger and take Tumble for extra AC. You loose access to discipline, but after swapping those skill points into tumble you end up with over a 100 free skill points still.

If Wisdom were to drive AC you would get something like
base 10
leather 2
Wisdom 4
Shield 3
Magic Vestment 10
Mage Armor 2
Shield of Faith 5
Haste 4

40 AC ish? 50 if you invest in imp expertise?

You could work in Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Focus, Armor Skin, Skill Focus and Epic Skill Focus Hide/MS as well as Skill Focus and Epic Skill Focus Spot/Listen, SF/GSF/ESP Illusion and then we have a open epic slot for something. If this class got the SF/GSF divination on level ups then you could get ESF Divination.

Rogue would look a little different I am sure.

As far as a caster though I would nerf all the physical stats and go more like

25Cl / 5Lm
Str - 8
Dex - 10
Con - 9
Wis - 18 +2 gift (dump rest of level up here for 24 total)
Int - 17 +2 Gift (dump first level up here for 18 total)
Cha - 14

Max Concentration, Listen, Lore, and Spot. You still have something like 212 free skills after that.

Gear I would go for cleric gear with bonus spells and wisdom to get it up to 36 with out needing spells.

Here AC would be something like:
base 10
cloth 0
Wisdom 13
Shield 3
Magic Vestment 10
Mage Armor 2
Shield of Faith 5
Haste 4

Total of 47 with out imp expertise? I dunno, again I am not great at this. Here you wont go after hide and move silently and instead rely on silence and invisibility. You can get some fancy LM secrets in here too. Maybe focus on Lore and you can start using any wizard scrolls to boot.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by hugolino » Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:39 pm

Wisdom to AC without multiclassing or alignment restriction may infringe too much on the niche of Monk and Vigilante classes. Monk in particular seems a class rarely taken except as a dip these days, but at least it has that much.
Kenji wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:33 pm
Personally the path of seeker should be a blend of divination/illusion caster and sneak attacker.
I think this mechanical focus is clear and achievable, both of which are important, and it fits the theme. In fact, a clear focus is precisely what helps make any theme achievable.

I didn't originally envision the sneak attack aspect but I recognize that it fits the theme and seems necessary for practicality (unless anyone else can conceive an alternative). The synergy with stealth classes and the oath of inquisition also fits the theme. It all fits

But accommodating Loremaster seems peripheral. It fits the theme but is outside the focus
Last edited by hugolino on Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Quidix » Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:58 pm

Kenji wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 4:00 pm
Path of the Seeker
INSERT FLAVOR TEXT
  • Weapon Proficiency: Rogue
  • Armor Proficiency: Light, Shield
  • Special:
    - Divine Favor and Divine Power are now double duration and can be extended again for a total of 4 times the original duration
    - Wearing Heavy Armor or wielding Tower Shield will incur a Spell Failure chance penalty.
    - Gains Improved Sneak Attack every 3 levels of cleric
    - +3 CL
    - Can't Summon
    - If multiclassed to Ranger, 2/3 cleric levels count towards dual-wield progression (ITWF at 9 levels of Cleric, assuming 3 levels of rangers)
    - If multiclassed to Rogue, 2/3 cleric levels count towards specialty weapon progression (24 levels of cleric gets +1 AB for Finessable Weapons, assuming 3 levels of rogue)
    - If multiclassed to Monk, 2/3 cleric levels count towards Ki Strike progression, Improved Ki Strike 4 gained at level 24
    - +2 DC on Divination and Illusion spells
    - While Divine Power is active, refund Divination and Illusion spells
I like this a lot. I like the synergies for ranger, rogue and monk in particular.

(1) Consider giving Uncanny Dodge as these dex builds (if one has one of the 3 multiclass)
(2) Consider reducing sneak attack to every 4th or 5th level

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Good Character » Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:50 am

Was going to come through and say Uncanny Dodge would be fantastic for this upcoming path and the Warpriest one. Warpriest would love it with how Divine Power now works.

Will mirror the issue with sneak attack scaling so quickly. The path will arguably be a better rogue; easier knockdown from the bloated AB of cleric buffs, inherently high damage from being a cleric, and access to more AC with monk.

Truestrike can be used as always to ensure knockdowns but it's telegraphed.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Juuj » Sun Jul 31, 2022 3:40 am

Good Character wrote:
Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:50 am

Will mirror the issue with sneak attack scaling so quickly. The path will arguably be a better rogue; easier knockdown from the bloated AB of cleric buffs, inherently high damage from being a cleric, and access to more AC with monk.

Truestrike can be used as always to ensure knockdowns but it's telegraphed.
I would beg to disagree here,

Sneak every 3 lvls is in line with Blackguard, that nets 6d6 @ 20, and cleric has 4 skill points per lvl whereas rogue nets 10, plus shady deals and whatnot. So I wouldn’t really say the path is a “better rogue”.

The argument for better damage due to cleric buffs is also arguable, and could be used against black guards that have similar sneak progression, full bab, and a strong summon going for them. Following that line of thought one could also imply that they are better rogues. I wouldn’t think they’d be right tho

As far as true strike goes it doesn’t benefit clerics as well as it does rogues because cleric buffs are closer to the Ab cap anyway.

As for feedback on the path itself, as others have said, uncanny dodge would be welcome. It’s really cool to finally see some sneaky/divine types on the server! Hopefully one day we could see something similar akin to arcane trickster prc too, maybe a spellsword path, who knows ? One can only dream 😅

Keep up the good work Kenji !

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Kenji » Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:02 am

Regarding Uncanny Dodge for Seekers:
Rogue 3 gets Uncanny Dodge 1 and improves with rogue levels from thereon.
Barbarian 2 gets Uncanny Dodge 1 and improves with barb levels from thereon.
Ranger 8 gets Uncanny Dodge 1, and that's it.
Swashbuckler 12 gets Uncanny Dodge 1, and that's it.

At first, I thought of some form of progression for Uncanny Dodge for Seekers but decided to leave it attained only from dipping Rogue 3 or Barb 2 (preferably the former).

I'm also considering allowing Warpriest to synergize with Rangers and Barbarians much like Shamans, but not as effective as Shaman's level conversion rate.

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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by WanderingPoet » Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:21 am

A small quibble:

Just as a minor note on Elemental Swarm. It'd be nice if it wasn't locked 100% to the one elemental stream, but could choose between all elementals or the elemental stream. So fire would be 4 fire elementals or one of each kind as their two options for example. Still no where near as nice as druid's ability to swap entirely, but still useful.

It's not like they're locked on what elementals they can summon for the summon creature line, so it doesn't make a ton of sense to lock them into just a single element especially when some can be rather awful in many circumstances. Being stuck with a fire elemental swarm while doing Aurilites compared to having one of each kind, for example.

Sometimes it'd be nice to just have elder elementals rather than being stuck with two greaters!
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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by xf1313 » Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:39 am

Kenji wrote:
Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:02 am
I'm also considering allowing Warpriest to synergize with Rangers and Barbarians much like Shamans, but not as effective as Shaman's level conversion rate.
Just giving my 2 cents, they would be amazing to have fighter/cavalier/knight/pal...Maybe Blackguard or DC synergies.
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Re: Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

Post by Good Character » Sun Jul 31, 2022 6:19 am

Juuj wrote:
Sun Jul 31, 2022 3:40 am
I would beg to disagree here,

Sneak every 3 lvls is in line with Blackguard, that nets 6d6 @ 20, and cleric has 4 skill points per lvl whereas rogue nets 10, plus shady deals and whatnot. So I wouldn’t really say the path is a “better rogue”.

The argument for better damage due to cleric buffs is also arguable, and could be used against black guards that have similar sneak progression, full bab, and a strong summon going for them. Following that line of thought one could also imply that they are better rogues. I wouldn’t think they’d be right tho

As far as true strike goes it doesn’t benefit clerics as well as it does rogues because cleric buffs are closer to the Ab cap anyway.

As for feedback on the path itself, as others have said, uncanny dodge would be welcome. It’s really cool to finally see some sneaky/divine types on the server! Hopefully one day we could see something similar akin to arcane trickster prc too, maybe a spellsword path, who knows ? One can only dream 😅

Keep up the good work Kenji !
That's my point, though. The reason I brought up Truestrike is that clerics have massive AB buffs, so they don't care to use Truestrike anyways; Divine Favor and Divine Power is a consistent, constant 10 AB. Not even accounting for War Cry, Aid, Bless, and Prayer - all that can be applied before a fight without worrying they'll drop too fast.

While Blackguards can easily hit 50AB, Blackguards still have to use Truestrike to secure knockdowns.

I brought up the damage situation is because the correct build (2h-hand STR nagainata) can nuke someone for 94 per hit on average before crits with the current sneak attack scaling. I assume Divine Power isn't giving a 4th APR otherwise Kenji would have specified, so you're looking at a max of 4 APR (3 APR + haste); 376 damage in a round without crits.

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