Jordenk wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 7:14 pm
I thought the idea was to keep some of the more potent spells that would add pvp utility out of the mix to avoid making cleric OP? Now they've got access to Weird, Horrid Wilting, Meteor, Avascular along with some very meaningful spell level drops on key spells ranging from FOM to haste to Implosion (on the most recent update alone).
As casters they're simply doing a lot of things better than Wizards with the whole kit taken into consideration. Want to make a necromancer? Go divine. Want to make an evoker? Go divine. Want to make a conj pokemaster, go divine... you can actually heal your thralls! The Cleric can grab some of the most useful arcane kit and stack it on top of an already devastating divine kit.
Now Clerics are just better casters with free Autostill 3... You could already feel the difference playing a Caster FS vs a Sorc as a parallel example. While a Sorcadin is really strong, having heal/harm in the kit along with the epic evo suite makes the FS have more than enough damage output to be a threat but also plays as a support healer, buffer & summoner WAY better. Sure you lose AC from EMA and divine shield, but you're saving a ton of feats and getting a bit made up from free heavy armor.
Am I the only one thinking Clerics are getting too much "mechanical power" here...?
A single cleric can't get access to all of the aforementioned spells. Can one go for Undeath, Illusion, Destruction/Fire, or Water domain all at once? No.
Let's first take a look at the spells you mentioned:
Weird: rendered useless with Clarity (unbreachable), Mind Blank (breachable), and lvl 20 Monk
Horrid Wilting: Affects enemies and allies alike, doesn't damage undead. Good for solo undead summoner.
Meteor Swarm: Fire damage and Ref save, circumvented by a combination of good ref save (capped 20 soft ref save, including spellcraft), evasion, and fire/frost shield (50% fire DI), enemies in melee range not affected by Meteor Swarm
Avascular Mass: made partial with Protection from Alignment (lvl1) and Mind Immunity, has short-range and is a touch attack
And then let's look at clerics being casters with free autostill 3 and AC being made up from free heavy armor. The numbers suggest otherwise.
8 str, 18 dex, 14 con, 17 wis (ends at 24 wis), 14 int, 8 cha Cleric Monk can achieve 63 AC while getting Mummy Dust, Greater Ruin, AND Hellball.
Sorcadin can achieve 63 AC but with far better DC and higher con.
14 str, 8 dex, 10 con, 16 wis (ends at 19 wis), 14 int, 16 cha (ends at 22 cha) Cleric Bard can achieve 63 AC while having to spend its epic feats on power attack and divine shield, only getting 1 epic spell. Worst DC and least HP out of all 3.
Heavy armor is kind of a moot concern when cleric/monk (combo'd with healer path) already exists and does a far better job with being dex/wis build, thus better equipped vs touch attacks, and have higher DC for their spells.
What the concern should have been is: What about healer/monk combo'd with all of those aforementioned spells?
They still don't have Time Stop or IGMS. Undeath and Death domain might be more overtuned than intended compared to other domains, but I'm doing so to see how far that goes for offensive caster clerics once some future changes are in. They still need to get in closer range in order to do SoV, Avascular Mass, Harm, Hellball, Harm, and GRuin combo all the while the enemies, if they clarity up just in time to counter SoV, can react to any of the combo spells.
What one
should be worried about and have mentioned were:
Wild Mages and their -fate avascular mass that can't be countered and then Hellball, Time Stop, Cloud Kill/Tentacle, GRuin, and IGMS Combo.
Sorcadins with 63 AC and the Hellball, Time Stop, Cloud Kill/Tentacle, GRuin, and IGMS Combo. Let's not forget they're also the best counter-spellers.
Healer/Monks and their free 135-150 temp hp (4.5 free hard con modifier) for itself and every single one of its allies while sitting at 63 AC
I'll have to simply disagree with your assessment that clerics have gained so much mechanical prowess that they outperform other offensive casters now. They have gained some, but mainly more for PvE purposes. Whatever that may be used for PvP have counters and opened up more avenues for offensive clerics, but not adding them altogether to the point where they outshine other casters.
What is already a problem (healer/monks) now gained more arsenal and should have been the focus of your concern. Not heavy armor clerics.
Last but not least, clerics are still not spontaneous casters.
In closing, where clerics
do excel is providing a plethora of thematic choices for various types of clerics. And mechanically they'll now be closer without feeling lesser thanks to not being travel/trickery domain clerics anymore.