Regarding the disguise reminder

[AstralUniverse]

Reminder that there is a clear distinction between the Law and the Right. DMs represent the Law, but the Right is noone's dominion. And while everyone here I'm sure wishes to follow the Law, they are merely voicing what they feel is "Right" nonetheless. DMs voicing the law doesn't mean the debate should be "closed" about what feels Right, after all this is a feedback thread.

Case at point, the disguise system clearly proved that there is a QoL side to it, it scratches a certain hitch/need for the playerbase, much more so than the "official" use of it (alter egos). People just went with what felt natural and most effective, and it just so happens that the system got used in a non intended way (and will probably keep being misused by people not on discord/forum, not out of ill intent). That should be an hint that there might be a new tool here that would be valued by a good chunk of the player base and that the disguise system begs to be used that way to fill that void.

And yes, there are ways to already do what the people here kind of ask for, you can be: inefficient (description changes), cumbersome (emotes), silly-looking (dropping a paper on the ground), or straight up annoying to the surroundings (quickslot emote spamming) to do what is debated here.

Now maybe that's not worth the production time for the devs to even consider it, and the community of Arelith has been coping with engine limitations for aeons and can keep doing so for many more with a smile, but just dismissing these opinions claiming "they can already do that and that's a non-topic", feels a bit... deaf? In my opinion that is.

This is really spot on. And I dont encourage anyone to intentionally find unintended uses for systems but I know I played a monk with a 'disguise'. It wasnt really a disguise, it was just a 'title' for someone who really doesnt want to use his name and sort of gave up his individual identity as a person, in a sense. I was walking around with the same title, and outside of several occasions of people breaking my 0 bluff disguise and RPing distrust (which is entirely fine and makes things interesting) it was pretty obvious to everyone who the character is, except it made it *much* more convenient to walk around not ever using his name or having people accidentally calling him in his real name. So my point is, there /is/ a void to fill that the disguise system is filling here and can be doing so in a harmless way that's just creative, so we should look at these angles and maybe one day expand the disguise system into more than just "Disguise".

[Ninjimmy]

Reminder that there is a clear distinction between the Law and the Right. DMs represent the Law, but the Right is noone's dominion. And while everyone here I'm sure wishes to follow the Law, they are merely voicing what they feel is "Right" nonetheless. DMs voicing the law doesn't mean the debate should be "closed" about what feels Right, after all this is a feedback thread.

Case at point, the disguise system clearly proved that there is a QoL side to it, it scratches a certain hitch/need for the playerbase, much more so than the "official" use of it (alter egos). People just went with what felt natural and most effective, and it just so happens that the system got used in a non intended way (and will probably keep being misused by people not on discord/forum, not out of ill intent). That should be an hint that there might be a new tool here that would be valued by a good chunk of the player base and that the disguise system begs to be used that way to fill that void.

And yes, there are ways to already do what the people here kind of ask for, you can be: inefficient (description changes), cumbersome (emotes), silly-looking (dropping a paper on the ground), or straight up annoying to the surroundings (quickslot emote spamming) to do what is debated here.

Now maybe that's not worth the production time for the devs to even consider it, and the community of Arelith has been coping with engine limitations for aeons and can keep doing so for many more with a smile, but just dismissing these opinions claiming "they can already do that and that's a non-topic", feels a bit... deaf? In my opinion that is.

This is really spot on. And I dont encourage anyone to intentionally find unintended uses for systems but I know I played a monk with a 'disguise'. It wasnt really a disguise, it was just a 'title' for someone who really doesnt want to use his name and sort of gave up his individual identity as a person, in a sense. I was walking around with the same title, and outside of several occasions of people breaking my 0 bluff disguise and RPing distrust (which is entirely fine and makes things interesting) it was pretty obvious to everyone who the character is, except it made it *much* more convenient to walk around not ever using his name or having people accidentally calling him in his real name. So my point is, there /is/ a void to fill that the disguise system is filling here and can be doing so in a harmless way that's just creative, so we should look at these angles and maybe one day expand the disguise system into more than just "Disguise".

YMMV but I'd consider that monk example an alter-ego that fits how the current system is intended to work.
Even having zero bluff reflects the mechanics/RP as it's not an active deception attempt to deny who the character is.
Like... it's a good use of the current system, imo, rather than a case to expand?

[Nekonecro]

When the DM team says to don't do this, that's it.
There's no discussion or negociation to be had.

Do not do it, you either follow the rules set or you'll likely get punished.

[AstralUniverse]

YMMV but I'd consider that monk example an alter-ego that fits how the current system is intended to work.
Even having zero bluff reflects the mechanics/RP as it's not an active deception attempt to deny who the character is.
Like... it's a good use of the current system, imo, rather than a case to expand?

I guess I kind of agree with you that it *should* be considered an intended use of the system, but currently it isnt. The dry rules say my monk was actively trying to disguise their identity in an active deception attempt. Clearly, most or all of the people I RPed with simply got the vibe of what I was really doing and no player or DM told me to stop, because it was harmless, but harmless doesnt mean intended.

[Duchess Says]

When the DM team says to don't do this, that's it.
There's no discussion or negociation to be had.

Do not do it, you either follow the rules set or you'll likely get punished.

This is a feedback section. I like to think and really hope civil discussion of a rule like this is allowed by all members of the community. Change can and does happen when a large amount of the player base expresses dissatisfaction or likewise.

Don't break rules IG because you don't like them. Don't shut down reasonable discussion in the appropriate forum either.

[Scylon]

The disguise system in general plants a target on your back for metagaming. I'm unsure the reasons why the quotations are needed. Its just sends a message to everyone stating "LOOK AT ME! I'M DONIG SOMETHING SHADY".

If players actually had to look at descriptions and heaven forbid make the check to see the person is indeed in disguise, it would be much better.

Right now using generic ones to hide whom you are is a good idea because you are clearly trying to hide, and aren't hiding the fact you are.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

So I reread this thread and the reminder again after discussing this on discord briefly, and I think (hope) I am starting to see where the DMS are coming from on this one. I think they are just explaining it in a wonky way. It really shouldn't be about how often you go to a location as much as what you do in said location. Like, if you are a pirate that heads into cordor to do some shopping, and you keep your head down and just go about your business, a name like "armored warrior" should be fine every once in a while. On the other hand, if you are hanging out in the square as that pirate and giving the guards high fives, you should be developing a personality since the folks would obviously recognize you when you come back. You give a great high five after all.

Correct me if I got it wrong.

[-XXX-]

1) Change the character's outfit (apply one with full body cover for optimal results)
2) Change character's description if necessary
3) Type "-disguise [any NAME you can think of]"
4) Avoid drawing too much attention

It's actually pretty straightforward and simple.

Trouble with disguises usually begins when people use them to DRAW attantion. This can range from giving the character a descriptive moniker to actively trolling someone while assuming that they won't make the spot check.


"Dark Figure" - hints at being some mysterious edgelord that everyone's supposed to be talking about and wondering about their true identity
"Bob" - is likely just this unassuming bald guy in a grey coat over there back in the corner that everyone's indifferent about in general

Even though neither of the above examples is explicitly forbidden, one is clearly a superior disguise.

[MRFTW]

So I reread this thread and the reminder again after discussing this on discord briefly, and I think (hope) I am starting to see where the DMS are coming from on this one. I think they are just explaining it in a wonky way. It really shouldn't be about how often you go to a location as much as what you do in said location. Like, if you are a pirate that heads into cordor to do some shopping, and you keep your head down and just go about your business, a name like "armored warrior" should be fine every once in a while. On the other hand, if you are hanging out in the square as that pirate and giving the guards high fives, you should be developing a personality since the folks would obviously recognize you when you come back. You give a great high five after all.

Correct me if I got it wrong.

That's how I've always interpreted it. Interpreting it this way, I think the issue is that I have personally run past the same "Armoured Knight" for over a week on multiple occasions. Doesn't matter if you break the disguise or RP curiously or antagonistically, "Armoured Knight" remains.

[DM Monkey]

So I reread this thread and the reminder again after discussing this on discord briefly, and I think (hope) I am starting to see where the DMS are coming from on this one. I think they are just explaining it in a wonky way. It really shouldn't be about how often you go to a location as much as what you do in said location. Like, if you are a pirate that heads into cordor to do some shopping, and you keep your head down and just go about your business, a name like "armored warrior" should be fine every once in a while. On the other hand, if you are hanging out in the square as that pirate and giving the guards high fives, you should be developing a personality since the folks would obviously recognize you when you come back. You give a great high five after all.

Correct me if I got it wrong.

You've got it! Even still, you can use any generic name appropriate for the setting and ultimately have a much better disguise. 'Jacob Cooper' is a much better disguise than 'Armoured Knight', even if you never really come back to the same disguise. Part of the reminder is to encourage players to do better. Focus on the story, try and put some effort into disguises.

You can be lazy sometimes. It's always better to try and be more giving in your RP.

[AstralUniverse]

So I reread this thread and the reminder again after discussing this on discord briefly, and I think (hope) I am starting to see where the DMS are coming from on this one. I think they are just explaining it in a wonky way. It really shouldn't be about how often you go to a location as much as what you do in said location. Like, if you are a pirate that heads into cordor to do some shopping, and you keep your head down and just go about your business, a name like "armored warrior" should be fine every once in a while. On the other hand, if you are hanging out in the square as that pirate and giving the guards high fives, you should be developing a personality since the folks would obviously recognize you when you come back. You give a great high five after all.

Correct me if I got it wrong.

That's how I've always interpreted it. Interpreting it this way, I think the issue is that I have personally run past the same "Armoured Knight" for over a week on multiple occasions. Doesn't matter if you break the disguise or RP curiously or antagonistically, "Armoured Knight" remains.

I understand that it can be disheartening to see others 'doing it wrong' but my biggest advice to situations like this is to focus on what you *can* control and try to just be the change you want to see. I can tell you that the server's mentality in various ways have changed drastically over the years for better or worse, because people were the change they wanted to see.

[MRFTW]

I totally agree, Astral.

Sadly I don't have a good reason to use a disguise on any of my characters, and they tend to have a CHA of 8 or lower, so I would be simply awful at leading by example

I mainly wanted to let Babylon know that I interpreted the rules exactly the same as they did.