Boats and the Underdark

[DarknessOfDespair]

Why is it that the underdark's boats are superior to the pirate's boats?

That's supposed to be the pirates schtick, hence pirates.

That don't make no sense.

[Skarain]

Well, it depends from the angle you look at. Sencliff would definitely have more skilled sailors, but arent always the strongest when it comes to unity. Underdark sure scuabbles with eachother a lot, but historically on Arelith put aside their differences if it mean bashing Surfacer heads. Andunor is also a merchantile powerhouse, with three major factions backing it up.

I do get the salt, though. What do you propose as an alternative?

Underdark boats do come with magical darkness, to not instantly disintegrate sensitive drow eyes or burn the Derro to crisp. If not a Hide bonus, what do you picture it doing?

One idea: The bonus to hide could only apply during nigth time, while during daytime the bonus migth be smaller and replaced by "You see an ominious, low-hanging black cloud in the distance".

Pirates could also get their own minor niche bonus, though then civilized settlements want one too, and then we go deep into the rabbits hole.

EDIT: Sencliff by theme will probably not have a single character without Sail. Thus, your ship Sail skill is going to be much higher, which to my understanding contributes for everything, from hide to speed to stealth to spot, but I have not read the system in too deeply.

You could also take the "unfairness" as In Character and try to 1.) Steal the technology. 2.) Find another way to augment your own sailing prowess/powers. 3.) Vage a furious war against Underdark ships in vengance, in creed of sea god demands, as coal ships out to be very poluting. 4.) Bind Umberlee into a set of coins to gain control over the seas.

[garrbear758]

Outside of Pirates of the Caribbean, pirate rarely had the best warships. Pirates frequently used smaller ships like sloops that could be built with materials in the Caribbean and had a shallow draft. This shallow draft led them succeed at what they're good at. They could attack merchant ships then escape the warships by heading into waters too shallow for the warships to sail into. Even the Queen Anne's Revenge, arguably the most famous pirate ship in history, was a refitted merchant ship, not a warship.

As far as the dreadnaught, don't get me started on my ironclads rant and how a ship like that could single-handedly take on all of Arelith and the Amnish Navy, magic aside.

[ZeroPointEnergy]

Even with our fishing ships we still manage to hold our own on the seas. Also something to consider is that we don't really 'own' any ship whereas that's someone's quarter slot completely used up. In Dread's case, that's a biddable property and meeting hell.

Also at the risk of saying too much but have you seen Sencliff's boats? All the pirates chip in and they're almost always fully upgraded.

[Watchful Glare]

I think the Undersea (and consequently it's vessels and sailors) are more often paired against eldritch abominations that would realistically kill any player character they run into in less than one round, and mixed and matched with magic and the faezrezz. Coming up with sailors and experienced people specially in a City like Andunor is an excruciating undertaking. Given that it is not Sencliff, out of everyone who plays there you would be lucky to run into one who knows how to sail and has the skill, or the capacity or the will to learn about it.

Everything in the underdark is often passed through a filter that most people die and everything is exceedingly dangerous, but the ultimate result is something that managed to withstand all that.

It was my impression than the ship was meant to reflect this. Something with an incredibly high upkeep cost where they must constantly be training new recruits to bolster up the ranks of a ship that is just strong enough to stand a chance against eldritch monstrosities and ocasionally the Arelith sea. I don't think it's a ship one can afford to bring out on a casual journey or to train new recruits in; so every outing is an event in itself. It is also the only ship they possess.

It's an asset of a powerhouse merchant city of the Underdark, and it's treated as such.

[garrbear758]

I think the Undersea (and consequently it's vessels and sailors) are more often paired against eldritch abominations that would realistically kill any player character they run into in less than one round, and mixed and matched with magic and the faezrezz. Coming up with sailors and experienced people specially in a City like Andunor is an excruciating undertaking. Given that it is not Sencliff, out of everyone who plays there you would be lucky to run into one who knows how to sail and has the skill, or the capacity or the will to learn about it.

Everything in the underdark is often passed through a filter that most people die and everything is exceedingly dangerous, but the ultimate result is something that managed to withstand all that.

It was my impression than the ship was meant to reflect this. Something with an incredibly high upkeep cost where they must constantly be training new recruits to bolster up the ranks of a ship that is just strong enough to stand a chance against eldritch monstrosities and ocasionally the Arelith sea. I don't think it's a ship one can afford to bring out on a casual journey or to train new recruits in; so every outing is an event in itself. It is also the only ship they possess.

It's an asset of a powerhouse merchant city of the Underdark, and it's treated as such.

I agree with this for the most part, but really something like that should be solved with magic.

Ironclads don't just pop up out of nowhere and exist in a bubble. After the first ironclad battle, the technological advantage of them was so obvious it immediately made ships of the line obsolete, which led to a technological naval arms race so rapid that prototype ships were effectively obsolete by the time they were even finished being built. This is a huge reason there was such a drastic jump in naval technology in the short time between the civil war and WWI vs the Age of Sail of the 300 or so years prior. Ironclads ended 300 years of 'stuff more cannons in it' in a day.

I know this is FR not history and we have magic, but that makes the case for it even worse. Wizards could conjure that ship up way quicker than developing the technology would require. Even rumors of one existing would lead to a technological arms race that would have to be stopped by divine intervention. Do you really think Amn would hear rumors of some distant underdark ironclad and not immediately whip up 10 of their own? Having one exist is the one anachronism that is a huge pet peeve of mine and I can't get over, until we do logical thing and have Oghma come blow it up to set the world right.

[Watchful Glare]

I think the Undersea (and consequently it's vessels and sailors) are more often paired against eldritch abominations that would realistically kill any player character they run into in less than one round, and mixed and matched with magic and the faezrezz. Coming up with sailors and experienced people specially in a City like Andunor is an excruciating undertaking. Given that it is not Sencliff, out of everyone who plays there you would be lucky to run into one who knows how to sail and has the skill, or the capacity or the will to learn about it.

Everything in the underdark is often passed through a filter that most people die and everything is exceedingly dangerous, but the ultimate result is something that managed to withstand all that.

It was my impression than the ship was meant to reflect this. Something with an incredibly high upkeep cost where they must constantly be training new recruits to bolster up the ranks of a ship that is just strong enough to stand a chance against eldritch monstrosities and ocasionally the Arelith sea. I don't think it's a ship one can afford to bring out on a casual journey or to train new recruits in; so every outing is an event in itself. It is also the only ship they possess.

It's an asset of a powerhouse merchant city of the Underdark, and it's treated as such.

I agree with this for the most part, but really something like that should be solved with magic.

Ironclads don't just pop up out of nowhere and exist in a bubble. After the first ironclad battle, the technological advantage of them was so obvious it immediately made ships of the line obsolete, which led to a technological naval arms race so rapid that prototype ships were effectively obsolete by the time they were even finished being built. This is a huge reason there was such a drastic jump in naval technology in the short time between the civil war and WWI vs the Age of Sail of the 300 or so years prior. Ironclads ended 300 years of 'stuff more cannons in it' in a day.

I know this is FR not history and we have magic, but that makes the case for it even worse. Wizards could conjure that ship up way quicker than developing the technology would require. Even rumors of one existing would lead to a technological arms race that would have to be stopped by divine intervention. Do you really think Amn would hear rumors of some distant underdark ironclad and not immediately whip up 10 of their own? Having one exist is the one anachronism that is a huge pet peeve of mine and I can't get over, until we do logical thing and have Oghma come blow it up to set the world right.

I don't disagree with you because you are right. If we acknowledge that I feel like we would be playing in Eberron instead, and eventually Shadowrun because it would make no sense why wouldn't we, particular with arms race being what they are and magic being what it is; finding reasons why that doesn't happen is challenging but maybe one can find some solace in some kind of justification similar to why alignment works the way it does IE some version of "Because the gods of the setting say so and keep it that way", thats why I try to do to not get peeved myself.

Or a set of social circumstances make it an impossibility. Or the lords are dismissive of it, or they don't think the cost would match the benefits currently. Or they don't know how.

[Hazard]

Generally everything from the Underdark is scarier and more powerful.

[DarknessOfDespair]

Wood is rare in the underdark and I've never seen any references to there being boats in the underdark. I get your points, but mine also still stands. Particularly since, the most powerful/notorious pirates historically Stole Better Boats. I believe there should be at least one boat superior to the ones in the UD in sencliff, even if it cost 50k to rent or something.

Edit: I will say though, great work in general with boats. They've come a long way, as I've had a high level pirate(s) for a while now, and have suffered immensely through the earliest iterations lol