Unpopular Opinion: Replace or Remove the Monk

[Waldo52]

Before you get all mad, just remember I'm an idiot with no power or influence. With that said, I believe the monk is a flawed relic of the D&D system and kind of conflicts with the overall feel of the classic D&D setting.

I should also stress that while I'll be using terms like "anime" and "Dragon Ball Z", I'm merely trying to explain a certain aesthetic and am no way hating on Asian themes, culture or people. The eastern qualities of the class actually intrigue me, and I'll touch upon that. Time to begin my rant!

There's something about the idea of showing up to a sword fight with your bare fists that just seems ridiculous to me. I know, I know: this is a world with wizards and dragons so magic can technically explain anything, but it still doesn't feel right in my humble opinion. There's something about this one guy fighting like something torn from Dragon Ball Z or a Kung Fu movie in an otherwise straight up sword and sorcery setting that is just inherently jarring.

When you factor in the ridiculous and hard coded speed bonuses of the class you're left with this unique snowflake of a character, this Steven Sagal all hopped up on speed and running around like a cheetah while he pummels armored knights and axe wielding minotaurs and iron golems to death with his bare fists.

Armed monks (which may soon be a thing of the past here from what I'm hearing) aren't much cooler as they still move comically fast and have to fight with an extremely limited selection of weapons which kind of broadcast the character's class in a very World of Warcraft way and have to be arbitrarily put away at random because you somehow can't stun a guy without dropping your sword and punching him in the face.

There are people who think this is cool, but it all feels so Marvel or anime or Disney to me, as if you gave the karate kid superhuman speed and inserted him into Lord of the Rings. There are two aspects of the class that so interest me, however:

The distinctly Asian feel of some monks and monk gear can be really cool. While I think anime fist fighters with marvel level powers fighting stereotypical medieval knights is kind of jarring and ugly, samurais or ninjas doing the same are not. Giving some class these interesting Asian weapons or redistributing some of them into the martial category could be a lot of fun.

The other aspect of the monk class I really love is this whole supernatural/semi magical warrior angle. When you get rid of the fist fighting and mach 3 movement the whole idea of a quazi-magical uber-fighter who stuns people with attacks, heals himself, etc. is pretty cool. I would love to see something like this taken in a different direction: Maybe a limited spell list or an expanded collection of stunning/crippling/battlefield control abilities.

In a perfect world I'd love to see the class modified one last time in the form of complete removal! With the exception of pre-existing monks being allowed to live of course.

TL;DR: I feel monks just don't look right in this kind of setting. They never did. There are really cool facets of the class, particularly the eastern look some of them have and alternative or semi magical feel they have in combat. But ultimately the class is just the ugly duckling of the D&D universe.

[Kuma]

I am 100% on board with this.

[-XXX-]

+1
Throw in paladins as a bonus!

[Irongron]

Next y'all will be asking me to remove gnomes.

As for a more serious response...

I like the physical/spiritual perfection part of monks, the isolation, contemplation and enlightenment, but I'm less keen on the somewhat confused mix between eastern and western philosophies.

There are plenty of monk orders in the Forgotten Realms, but many (particularly of ilmater, are based more around European orders.)

I've made it known to the team that I'd eventually like to revisit, and separate the class, so that upon creation one selects order type 'tenets', broadly between 'Spiritual' and 'Martial', with each having a selection of secondary options.

Being of a 'Martial' order would essentially be the Monk class as we know it now, with sub options taking it in the direction of armoured/weapon using, hand to hand fighting, and so on.

'Spirtual (Religious)' monks would lose all fighting abilities, in return for more support for cross classing with divine classes, such as clerics and paladins. Secondary order options would be things like ' Hospitaler, Crusader or Academic'

Both Monk types would share many aspects of the class, the body (Perfect Self etc) and wisdom feats, the BaB and Hit Dice.

This is a tall order, sure, but I like the approach. My aim here isn't about spreadsheet mechanics, but about actual flavour. Allowing players to play members of monastic orders that are properly reflected in their class, rather than a curious catch all class. (Of course they would need to be properly balanced too...)

Anyone that has studied European history will know the huge role Monasticism played in the development of society through the middle ages, and when one looks east, to the Sohei or Komuso, will also find very good reason to include a Monk class in such a setting as the Forgotten Realms, the RP potential is vast and the source material rich and engaging.

We just need to ensure the class itself does them justice.

[-XXX-]

Wouldn't medieval European monks be essentially Loremasters tho?

[Irongron]

Wouldn't medieval European monks be essentially Loremasters tho?

The templars certainly weren't. Though yes, academic pursuits were very much a feature, but so was asceticism, which very much plays into the existing monk class.

[Kuma]

Wouldn't medieval European monks be essentially Loremasters tho?

The templars certainly weren't. Though yes, academic pursuits were very much a feature, but so was asceticism, which very much plays into the existing monk class.

Calling the Knights Templar monks is a bit of a stretch. Asceticism in medieval Europe is a very difficult and broad topic, though. I'd argue that the cloistered monk that keeps bees, hails [god] and makes dope Belgian beer is very different to Kung Fu Panda or the guy who gets sent to murder other religions in the Holy Land by the Pope.

Monk absolutely is in need of being split as a concept or even just a rename.

[Dr. B]

I just want to point out that the setting here is the Forgotten Realms, not Medieval Europe. If it were then we should probably make playing a female character require a major award unless that character is a commoner.

[Kuma]

I just want to point out that the setting here is the Forgotten Realms, not Medieval Europe. If it were then we should probably make playing a female character require a major award unless that character is a commoner.

Oversimplification.

Monk is a bad class. Objectively. It combines way too much into way too little, and offers no explanations or lore beyond uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh shrug i guess haha tis just fukn qi yknow like the actual literal philosophy anyway YOU'RE AN OUTSIDER NOW AND YOUR HANDS ARE MACHINE GUNS

don't be obtuse

[Baseili]

Monk simply means single, or solitary. Anyone who sits in contemplation regularly could be called such. Its an exceedingly broad term that covers the shaolin all the way to knights templar and cloistered ascetics.

The D&D monk class is explained as mastery of self, the glowing eyes, the ki strikes, mind immunity and outsider status are effects caused by merging of the soul harmoniously into the physical body. That is why you have the colours on your eyes, gate ways to in this case your literal soul. Dislike as you wish but don't misinform.

[legionetrangere]

"In the book The Evolution of Fantasy Role-Playing Games (2014), Michael Tresca wrote that while the original monk was a cleric path, the monk (as standardized in Oriental Adventures) "is one of the few classes that have no anchor in Western lore. Crusading knights encountered the assassins, but the monk is a particularly Eastern phenomenon. As a result, the monk's roots were sometimes conflated, such that one set of lead miniatures had Franciscan-style monks posed in martial arts stances".[2]:87–88 Tresca also highlighted that the monk "was inspired by the fictional martial art Sinanju [...] [which] bestowed abilities upon its practitioners that bordered on the fantastic, including the ability to climb walls, dodge bullets, outrun a car, and the like"."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monk_(Dun ... 6_Dragons)

lol

[Baseili]

D&D is gloriously silly, I mean out running a car seems absurd. Then you see someone turn into a dragon, or watch a gnome mage flying using two spells. My personal favourite being the gensai, the only race you can turn around and say "my great grandfather was a rolling stone."

[Irongron]

As I said. This is all exactly why I believe the class needs to be split in two, with aim of not just separating the east/west conflation, but to allow players to play within the existing orders within the Foelrgotten Realms setting. The class, as it stands, doesn't fit to a great many of them.

It's possible, but won't happen soon. In the meantime, I'm not removing the class, because I'm absolutely not ascribing to the attitude that our players are somehow incapable of roleplaying a fantasy monk to an acceptable standard.

[Curve]

There are some classes and class combinations that when played in certain ways are immersion breaking. A human ftr/rog/wm who is in a love triangle with a gensai sorcerer and a wild elf paladin is something I steer clear of but it does not have the same effect as a cute elf monk who behaves like a middle school boy full of crushes and longing. It is a matter of personal taste, I think.

That being said I like monks. I like playing monks. Most of my non-monks have some monkish qualities. I think that the arelith specific lore for monks is pretty ingrained and has had some shinning examples. So, removing monks is a bit ridiculous to me. I guess making monk paths could be cool if it expanded the way monks play in the game, rather than further boxing them in.

[Irongron]

I just want to point out that the setting here is the Forgotten Realms, not Medieval Europe. If it were then we should probably make playing a female character require a major award unless that character is a commoner.

You're right, it's not. It's Classical, Prehistoric, Dark Ages, renaissance, with occasional monents of the Enlightenment, Industrialism, and if you cross the planes, outright Science Fiction...

Every now and then someone makes the 'But it's not Medieval!' post, but the thing is....it is. Castles, knights, sailing ships and so on. The entire Western Faerun is a fantasy medieval setting, sure it has other things thrown in, and is an anachronistic mess when it comes to throwing in much (including the armour) from a much later period, but when it comes to the actual imagery being used, it is absolutely a form of romantic history, and trying, broadly, to stay within the themes of the period makes absolute sense.

Though, I would agree that it's more more 'Medieval World' than 'Medieval Europe', Faerun includes places modelled on almost every nation on earth, often quite shamelessly, look hard and you'll find not just the Ottoman empire, but Tibet, Korea and of course, Japan. Saying that 'Monks have no place in classic Sword and Sorcery' is true, only when one is talking about a setting in which it is alien. The Forgotten Realms is no such place. One of my first introductions to fantasy - worlds of warriors and monsters, was watching reruns on Monkey! in the 90s (One of many adaptations of Journey to the West), and I was always a huge fan of the Seven Samuri, or the Water Margin. To say eastern monks have no part in fantasy worlds, is just to ignore not only the Forgotten Realms setting, but much of the actual real world myths and legends that form the basis of modern fantasy.

Also I'll seize this opportunity to link that wonderful line from the Water Margin credits.

It mentions dragons, if not dungeons.

https://youtu.be/TVVRMBWGBqw?t=41

[Ninjimmy]

There's something about the idea of showing up to a sword fight with your bare fists that just seems ridiculous to me.

I mean... historically, unarmed martial arts was designed so that bare-handed fights against an armed opponent were winnable, it's why so many traditional moves rely on going second and reacting. Then you get stuff like boxing/MMA where its an even ground and the goal is more strike fast, control the pace and grapple ASAP cos that's usually the best approach in 1v1 unarmed which probly contributes to the mind-set bare-hands against weapons is ridiculous cos thats how you get knives through yo' hands.

I don't find anything the monk can do to be any more unrealistic than the stuff fighters or rogues can pull off without even having the bullcrap excuse of chi behind it. Which isn't even touching on things like Druids turning into bears or Bards singing so well it has a literal magical effect.

It's no more anime to play a monk than to play a Paladin who spends 3 minutes screaming spells at themself to turn Super Paladin.

[Dr. B]

don't be obtuse

Here we go.

It combines way too much into way too little

You mean mechanically, or lore-wise? If you mean mechanically, then that point is irrelevant to the debate over lore. If you mean lore-wise, how? You make this claim, but you offer no argument for it.

and offers no explanations or lore

Where does the obligation to provide lore for the existence of a class begin and end? Is there an explanation for why fighters exist in FR? What about rogues?

beyond uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh shrug i guess haha tis just fukn qi yknow like the actual literal philosophy anyway YOU'RE AN OUTSIDER NOW AND YOUR HANDS ARE MACHINE GUNS

First: are you a ninth-grader? Have some class here, friend. Write like an adult.

Second, I don't think anyone other than you is saying this. And furthermore, it's false; it's established within FR lore that monks manipulate and channel ki energy, which gives them their abilities.

You're right, it's not.

but the thing is....it is.

Though, I would agree that it's more more 'Medieval World' than 'Medieval Europe',

Take a position Irongron. Either it is medieval Europe or it's not. You appear to concede that it's not. Unarmed martial artists exist in medieval times, in East Asia, so I see no disagreement here.

Honestly, my issue has less to do with monks than the insistence that Arelith simulate medieval Europe. That's a totally contrived idea of what the setting is that isn't reflected in FR lore. Parts of the setting resemble medieval Europe, and other parts don't. The setting intentionally draws from a grab bag of different influences so that there can be something available to satisfy a wide variety of players.

Monk is a bad class. Objectively.

You mean subjectively. You're complaining about the class because it doesn't reflect your personal idea of what the Forgotten Realms setting is supposed to be, an idea that is contradicted, at face value, by the fact that monks exist in Forgotten Realms lore....

So you're either arguing for one of two things here. Either monks don't fit with FR lore (false) or you don't like FR lore and think it should be modified to fit your tastes. Take a position, but please be honest here; you're not going to win this debate by appealing to Forgotten Realms Lore.

Also, I like Marvel, and Anime. There is a lot of entertaining, well written material within this respective franchise and medium that can serve as the inspiration for a character, and so I'm not sure I see the issue. If the issue is that there aren't supposed to be super-powered martial artists running around, it was already established in the first post that the FR is a setting in which people boast supernatural and superhuman abilities. There's really no argument on offer here beyond "Monks, I don't like em." Every other point that has been made in support of that argument has failed.

[Ninjimmy]

Monk is a bad class. Objectively.

You mean subjectively. You're complaining about the class because it doesn't reflect your personal idea of what the Forgotten Realms setting is supposed to be, an idea that is contradicted, at face value, by the fact that monks exist in Forgotten Realms lore....

So you're either arguing for one of two things here. Either monks don't fit with FR lore (false) or you don't like FR lore and think it should be modified to fit your tastes. Take a position, but please be honest here; you're not going to win this debate by appealing to Forgotten Realms Lore.

Also, I like Marvel, and Anime. There is a lot of entertaining, well written material within this respective franchise and medium that can serve as the inspiration for a character, and so I'm not sure I see the issue. If the issue is that there aren't supposed to be super-powered martial artists running around, it was already established in the first post that the FR is a setting in which people boast supernatural and superhuman abilities. There's really no argument on offer here beyond "Monks, I don't like em." Every other point that has been made in support of that argument has failed.

I mean... while I am pro-monk, as shown above, Devil's Advocate for a decent argument against:

You could argue that Arelith has statistically got way, way, WAY more monks than you typically see in the Moonshae Isles, particularly when you consider how far Shou and Wa ARE from it and how remote everything is. We're already stretching it with the sheer number of people not from Amn or Baldur's Gate there are, travelling across the ENTIRE of Toril to get here is perhaps odd.

[Dr. B]

Then that's an argument for gating them behind an award, not deleting them.

[Ninjimmy]

Probably.
Like I say, I'm pro-monk, I'm just giving an argument for why one might be against them.

[ActionReplay]

Monk is a boring class in general, that's all I gotta say about it. I'd be fine with them just being removed.

[Kuma]

Also, I like Marvel, and Anime

zuckerburg where is the vomit react

[Dr. B]

That's very good, Kuma.

*pats him on the head*

[Red Ropes]

Monks (class) in the realms are not the only monks as a concept in the realms and largely have this existence due to the change of fads and "what is hip and cool".

But they've always sort have been around under different names. Just stating the name but the monk as we know it sort of is birthed in the 1e version of "Oriental Adventures" and it stayed around under names like Mystic in 2e and eventually entered into 3e as one of the 11 core classes when they stopped doing kits.

Warrior type monks have always in FR - they tend to literally just be normal clerics in "Faerun" which in some places is sort of Western Europe derived but I am not going to get into big comparatives as its a fantasy setting. Clerics are trained to wear armor and to fight to defend their gods and their philosophies afterall. After that it is Paladins who also fall into this or Divine Champions or even literal prestige class "War Clerics".

After that for the more typical "sleepy european brewer monk" in PnP terms in 2e was I believe an NPC class that didn't adventure and in 3e is the more appropriate variant called the "Cloister Cleric" who are clerics as you know them currently but they have 1/2 BAB and can only wear light armor.

The Kung-Fu/wuxia monk has also just sort of existed in FR as well. In setting shaolin style philosophical/martial concepts traveled as ideas along the Realms version of the Silk Road and cross-pollinated with various warrior societies and religions to form typically unarmed ascetics who look inward to discover their purpose in the world or whatever. (Like this has been happening for thousands of years in the Realms by this point.)

In the Realms' "east" we also have the Sohei (which is a type of warrior-monk-priest that is somewhere between a Barbarian and a Paladin, mechanically), Monks (class), and a few cleric-like classes such as the Shugenjah.

I've never really been stuck on the name and don't really think it needs to change or that the class is fundamentally bad lorewise they've always sort of existed and mechanically we can correct/tune up what is weird with them due to the quirks of NWN as a game being different than tabletop.

I also think quirks like the eyeglow / perfect self probably need to be delayed to deeper into the class just because Arelith's class levels are not really PnP classlevels which cause oversaturation of "visible things" that are not too common in a way, at least, I feel violates even the sacred "rule of cool".

[AstralUniverse]

I've never really been stuck on the name and don't really think it needs to change or that the class is fundamentally bad lorewise they've always sort of existed and mechanically we can correct/tune up what is weird with them due to the quirks of NWN as a game being different than tabletop.

This is very well said.

As for my two cents,
This class is strong. It's strong /and/ it's full of cookies and utility. If it's removed or fundamentally changed I will truly miss throwing out a monk every few years. I love the 'zen' kind of RP, not that it cannot be on on other classes but the all together the Outsider part, the fitness, the Zen, they make it the Monk (class) for me and I love it as it is. It's also challenging and offers different approaches to 'conflict' in this game. I really see no reason to remove the class or change it fundamentally. It's been buffed to the sky, neutralized and down to the ground, and then buffed again twice since 2019 and almost every one of these buff attempts including the current state, are kinda missing the mark. Vanilla monk was great. Yes, annoyingly fast, but it was *perfect* for the sort of RP avenues and gameplay in combat I always looked for from this class, and I was okay with being useless in pvp.

I really rather see this class, in it's current state, nerfed into oblivion than removed. It offers so much utility it can be weaker than this and still really fun.