Unpopular Opinion: Replace or Remove the Monk

[thimblegiant]

I have a 1st edition AD&D players handbook from the late 1970s and monks are already a base D&D class. Bards barely are (they're some weird rogue/druid afterthought in the appendix) and fantasy stalwarts like barbarian and sorcerer don't even yet exist. So it's not like monks are some controversial homemade Arelith addition here, they've been part of D&D for 40+ years now.

A distinction here is they were (btb) nearly impossible to roll - requiring 15 in STR, DEX and WIS + 11 in CON - 3d6 rolled in order. Not many monks are going to be generated that way. But that said, nobody I knew played btb. We typically used (and still do) the 4d6 top 3, assign as desired and adjust (class restrictions, +1 -2, etc). So if you wanted to play a monk, you could eventually squeak one out. Still uncommon, but possible.

But, that leads to the next point:

Clearly they are a D&D staple in no small part because the game is not about emulating European history exclusively. It's fantasy and encountering "mysterious warriors from the East" is a very common 20th century fantasy trope, usually with some problematic Orientalism attached but that's another discussion.

That is exactly how they were first introduced - in Greyhawk as a rare and mysterious being (humans only, of course). In fact, the (lack of) rarity of classes in general is where online worlds like Arelith bump into problems; pnp characters originally were never really designed to be played in huge groups of players. If I played a mage, I was "the wizard", a friend was "the fighter" and so on. It didn't matter if it was very similar to the previous wizard and fighter we just played because we were among a small handful of players and the center of the universe. Table top is still that way, and really only 3e with its vast and seemingly endless builds keeps a server like Arelith fresh.

In my opinion, monks are fine and belong just like any other class. They are less of an oddball now in D&D then they were when conceptualized over 40 years ago, that's for certain. In my view they don't even stand out as particularly noteworthy, flavor wise.

[ReverentBlade]

Who in their right mind would keep building monk nowadays anyway? The amount they've been jerked around is insane.

[Waldo52]

I never imagined this thread would garner so many responses. I'm kind of amused, But more than that I'm shocked to see that there are people who entirely or partially agree with me.

If you see the monk as a classic D&D staple, you're objectively right. If you see the idea of punching a golem to death as ridiculous to nearly the same extent as killing one with a sword, you're objectively right. I still kind of see them as Gokus and Incredible Hulks in a world of John Snows and Aragorns. We cannot prove each other wrong, but we can bicker endlessly on an online forum. It's ultimately fruitless but satisfying.

[AstralUniverse]

Who in their right mind would keep building monk nowadays anyway? The amount they've been jerked around is insane.

They are very fun to RP. They have very unique kit. Plenty of people play monks (speaking of unarmed monks). You have long time monk main players such as myself who will always look for their next inspiration for a monk character. That, in my humble opinion, isnt going anywhere anytime soon, even if you nerf the class into oblivion.

[Opustus]

I once made a monk inspired by Kungfu Panda. I probably knew FR lore from before I even had history in school, so whatever FR has been has predated the real world so the mishmash of influences and genres has never struck me as odd.

My point being that I represent a cadre of players who, while taking roleplay and video games seriously, don't take the premises for the lore and their own characters seriously out of a bad case of CBA and anything goes. So I've never even considered before this thread that monk might be silly to the point of it being jarring to some; seriously, 15 years of NWN and reading forums, this is the first time!

I think I most subscribe to Red Ropes' point of there being enough to sustain the relevant archetypes.

I think monk should be generalist over specialist, emulating a wider cast of character types. The most rudimentary thing I like about monks is that they are wise (ie mechanically benefit from wisdom) without being divine casters with those RPly constraints. The monastic shtick is fitting and awesome, naturally, but I wouldn't constrain monks to monasteries; self-taught vagabonds are one example this limitation would clash with. I'd even go further and open up the alignment to non-chaotic.

[Hazard]

They don't seem out of place to me.

I've only ever had 2 problems with monk, one being when people bring real world language/culture into the game, but that's not exclusive to monks. The way I see it these places/cultures/languages are BASED on these things, they might seem similar but they're not just that exact thing. I'm not talking about inspiration or using a little of this and that, to be clear .. I'm talking about when someone is full on playing a "Japanese" person as we would know them from Earth's history or something like that. Maybe it's just me, but that's just my opinion. Not a fan of seeing people full on speaking French or Japanese or something and insisting it's the language of everyone from there. . . It just isn't. (Also, I don't get to roll lore to understand you when you do this, and I'm not going to google translate everything.)

The second is the behaviour/RP of some monks, but again this isn't exclusive to the class but a result of the mechanics. Whenever any class/build has been a PvP powerhouse it becomes popular and the characters become cocky and domineering to the point of it being disruptive to RP and other peoples fun. Monks seem to be in a better place now, thankfully.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

They don't seem out of place to me.

I've only ever had 2 problems with monk, one being when people bring real world language/culture into the game, but that's not exclusive to monks. The way I see it these places/cultures/languages are BASED on these things, they might seem similar but they're not just that exact thing. I'm not talking about inspiration or using a little of this and that, to be clear .. I'm talking about when someone is full on playing a "Japanese" person as we would know them from Earth's history or something like that. Maybe it's just me, but that's just my opinion. Not a fan of seeing people full on speaking French or Japanese or something and insisting it's the language of everyone from there. . . It just isn't. (Also, I don't get to roll lore to understand you when you do this, and I'm not going to google translate everything.)

The second is the behaviour/RP of some monks, but again this isn't exclusive to the class but a result of the mechanics. Whenever any class/build has been a PvP powerhouse it becomes popular and the characters become cocky and domineering to the point of it being disruptive to RP and other peoples fun. Monks seem to be in a better place now, thankfully.

Do this to them if they pull that:



I strongly dislike people bringing real life languages to the game. The whole "Cormyr is France" thing is some fandom thing as far as I'm concerned, made by people wanting to try and put real life culture onto every FR region just because there's some real life inspiration in a few places. France is defined by its history, which is not emulated in Cormyr. "Based on Arthurian legend" is a really long stretch to say "So that means they speak French."

I still kind of see them as Gokus and Incredible Hulks in a world of John Snows and Aragorns.

Goku has as much place in FR as an Amongus character. And it misses the point about what makes monks fit into the setting. There are several monk schools that engage with FR lore, people who RP being part of a school often end up being really good characters.
Secondly, anyone attempting to play Aragorn or another pop culture character usually falls flat and makes a boring cardboard character that fails to live up to the source material. I'd rather see monks than a flavour of the month fantasy reference.

[Hazard]

They don't seem out of place to me.

I've only ever had 2 problems with monk, one being when people bring real world language/culture into the game, but that's not exclusive to monks. The way I see it these places/cultures/languages are BASED on these things, they might seem similar but they're not just that exact thing. I'm not talking about inspiration or using a little of this and that, to be clear .. I'm talking about when someone is full on playing a "Japanese" person as we would know them from Earth's history or something like that. Maybe it's just me, but that's just my opinion. Not a fan of seeing people full on speaking French or Japanese or something and insisting it's the language of everyone from there. . . It just isn't. (Also, I don't get to roll lore to understand you when you do this, and I'm not going to google translate everything.)

The second is the behaviour/RP of some monks, but again this isn't exclusive to the class but a result of the mechanics. Whenever any class/build has been a PvP powerhouse it becomes popular and the characters become cocky and domineering to the point of it being disruptive to RP and other peoples fun. Monks seem to be in a better place now, thankfully.

Do this to them if they pull that:



I strongly dislike people bringing real life languages to the game. The whole "Cormyr is France" thing is some fandom thing as far as I'm concerned, made by people wanting to try and put real life culture onto every FR region just because there's some real life inspiration in a few places. France is defined by its history, which is not emulated in Cormyr. "Based on Arthurian legend" is a really long stretch to say "So that means they speak French."

I still kind of see them as Gokus and Incredible Hulks in a world of John Snows and Aragorns.

Goku has as much place in FR as an Amongus character. And it misses the point about what makes monks fit into the setting. There are several monk schools that engage with FR lore, people who RP being part of a school often end up being really good characters.
Secondly, anyone attempting to play Aragorn or another pop culture character usually falls flat and makes a boring cardboard character that fails to live up to the source material. I'd rather see monks than a flavour of the month fantasy reference.

I love it

[MissEvelyn]

They don't seem out of place to me.

I've only ever had 2 problems with monk, one being when people bring real world language/culture into the game, but that's not exclusive to monks. The way I see it these places/cultures/languages are BASED on these things, they might seem similar but they're not just that exact thing. I'm not talking about inspiration or using a little of this and that, to be clear .. I'm talking about when someone is full on playing a "Japanese" person as we would know them from Earth's history or something like that. Maybe it's just me, but that's just my opinion. Not a fan of seeing people full on speaking French or Japanese or something and insisting it's the language of everyone from there. . . It just isn't. (Also, I don't get to roll lore to understand you when you do this, and I'm not going to google translate everything.)

The second is the behaviour/RP of some monks, but again this isn't exclusive to the class but a result of the mechanics. Whenever any class/build has been a PvP powerhouse it becomes popular and the characters become cocky and domineering to the point of it being disruptive to RP and other peoples fun. Monks seem to be in a better place now, thankfully.

Do this to them if they pull that:



I strongly dislike people bringing real life languages to the game. The whole "Cormyr is France" thing is some fandom thing as far as I'm concerned, made by people wanting to try and put real life culture onto every FR region just because there's some real life inspiration in a few places. France is defined by its history, which is not emulated in Cormyr. "Based on Arthurian legend" is a really long stretch to say "So that means they speak French."

I still kind of see them as Gokus and Incredible Hulks in a world of John Snows and Aragorns.

Goku has as much place in FR as an Amongus character. And it misses the point about what makes monks fit into the setting. There are several monk schools that engage with FR lore, people who RP being part of a school often end up being really good characters.
Secondly, anyone attempting to play Aragorn or another pop culture character usually falls flat and makes a boring cardboard character that fails to live up to the source material. I'd rather see monks than a flavour of the month fantasy reference.

I've written so many lengthy drafts only to not have them published on the forums about this topic, because essentially I don't want to tell others how to RP.

But you're absolutely, unmistakably correct. As someone who is a big big fan of the Cormyr saga novels, I find it insulting (to the authors and the setting) that people think Cormyreans are French. They are not. The only resemblance Cormyr has to France is the feudal, medieval structure. And all novels, books, and sourcebooks, none of them mention or descripe a French dialect. Not a single one.

Cormyr is similar to medieval France in society and nobility, but that's where the resemblances end. Ed Greenwood said this himself, but he never claimed they speak with a French dialect. (Also, which one? There are many French dialects, not just one).

Furthermore, the Forgotten Realms is composed of many human languages, and in Cormyr, aside from Common, Tethyrian and Chondathan are spoken, and none of these are or have ever been compared to French.

Also, look at the noble family names, many of which that have been there since the founding of Cormyr:
Truesilver
Huntcrown
Wyvernspur
Goldsword
Hardcastle
Greenmantle
Ireabor
Cormaeril
Blackwagon
Bleth

Let's not forget the royal family: Obarskyr

None of these sound French at all. Many of them are outright British family names.

The consensus is quite clear, then: Cormyr does not speak or sound French. At all.

Sorry, I'm just so passionate about this topic

[Marsi]

The "don't use IRL language/culture" line has always been blurry. It seems akin to the "can/should I use IRL lyrics IG" question in that the consensus is one can do as they please, so long as they have good taste. We turn up our nose at "Bonjour" (probably because Francophiles always seem to be the worst) but apparently "Pax Cordoria" and other Latinisms are not only fine, but hard-coded into Arelithian nomenclature.

Come to think of it, I've never had that much experience with weaboo monks. I think monks fit fine into Arelith/FR, and occupy a perfectly decent niche as a dynamic spiritualist that can be nudged in either a western or eastern direction.

I have however run afoul of "violently arrogant monk syndrome", as Hazard mentions. It used to be so exhaustingly common.

[Duchess Says]

Arrogant monks are the norm in classic Asian martial arts movies. Or look at Pai Mei in Kill Bill 2 for a good homage to that.

I'm not super crazy about using French words for Cormyrians or peppering your Japanese-y character's dialogue with anime terms ether but I understand the intent and think it's better to just try to work with others' style choices even if they're not my taste. In a way it's like how ancient Romans always have British accents in film and TV. It's not at all historically accurate, obviously, but it does work to portray them as civilized, educated and elite.

[Drowboy]

I have however run afoul of "violently arrogant monk syndrome", as Hazard mentions. It used to be so exhaustingly common.

It's because the class was violently OP for a few months, and has been sort of generically strong ever since, leading to people who grind monks up to epic for the sole purpose of being the most insufferable jerk imaginable, so that they can show off the 'super cool build' they came up with. (30 monk or monk/fighter/CoT gotten out of the build guides portion of official, but heyo whatever)

That's, at least partially, where a lot of the modern monk hate comes from anyway. "Monk" characters that were mostly just ego projections of the players in question, who would then brag about how "Good" they were with a class that basically has their build handed to them on a platter.

Monks shouldn't get any speed boosts, but removal seems like work.

[Marsi]

In a way it's like how ancient Romans always have British accents in film and TV. It's not at all historically accurate, obviously, but it does work to portray them as civilized, educated and elite.

This is a great point. It's exactly how Latin is used in-game - to convey the ancient/elite. No one is seriously trying to pass it off as Netherese. In a similar way "Bonjour" and other IRL languages or cultural tropes is an expedient to broadcast the reference and pastiche the player is aiming for. It says "Hello, note that I am a character from Cormyr". It's a stylistically hollow way to do it, but it's no different to how some characters will emote toying with a choice weapon or item to give away a cultural inspiration. Its never seemed worth dwelling on to me, as an orthodox interpretation of FR would get very dry. There are a lot of regions outside the beloved Thay, Moonshae etc that are quite barren and aesthetically entirely propped up by a wink wink nudge nudge allusion to an IRL culture.

[jomonog]

I have however run afoul of "violently arrogant monk syndrome", as Hazard mentions. It used to be so exhaustingly common.

It's because the class was violently OP for a few months, and has been sort of generically strong ever since, leading to people who grind monks up to epic for the sole purpose of being the most insufferable jerk imaginable, so that they can show off the 'super cool build' they came up with. (30 monk or monk/fighter/CoT gotten out of the build guides portion of official, but heyo whatever)

That's, at least partially, where a lot of the modern monk hate comes from anyway. "Monk" characters that were mostly just ego projections of the players in question, who would then brag about how "Good" they were with a class that basically has their build handed to them on a platter.

Monks shouldn't get any speed boosts, but removal seems like work.

As a reasonably new player here (well, a couple of years now) I notice this attitude towards monk alot and I think it underpins a lot of the seemingly constant calls to nerf (or more commonly delete) the class. I must say I find it strange though wanting to remove a whole class as a way of punishing individuals based on a sort of schadenfreude. I've levelled two monks to 30 (different builds) and I certainly dont behave like this with my characters. Nor are they powerhouse PVP hounds. I can also say I've never personally witnessed it from other monk players at least in my time here. It does seem to be quite a prevalent attitude amongst the server veterans in particular though towards monk as a class so I guess its an overhang from some period before my time.

[Waldo52]

I have however run afoul of "violently arrogant monk syndrome", as Hazard mentions. It used to be so exhaustingly common.

It's because the class was violently OP for a few months, and has been sort of generically strong ever since, leading to people who grind monks up to epic for the sole purpose of being the most insufferable jerk imaginable, so that they can show off the 'super cool build' they came up with. (30 monk or monk/fighter/CoT gotten out of the build guides portion of official, but heyo whatever)

That's, at least partially, where a lot of the modern monk hate comes from anyway. "Monk" characters that were mostly just ego projections of the players in question, who would then brag about how "Good" they were with a class that basically has their build handed to them on a platter.

Monks shouldn't get any speed boosts, but removal seems like work.

As a reasonably new player here (well, a couple of years now) I notice this attitude towards monk alot and I think it underpins a lot of the seemingly constant calls to nerf (or more commonly delete) the class. I must say I find it strange though wanting to remove a whole class as a way of punishing individuals based on a sort of schadenfreude. I've levelled two monks to 30 (different builds) and I certainly dont behave like this with my characters. Nor are they powerhouse PVP hounds. I can also say I've never personally witnessed it from other monk players at least in my time here. It does seem to be quite a prevalent attitude amongst the server veterans in particular though towards monk as a class so I guess its an overhang from some period before my time.

It was never the power level of the class that that fundamentally triggered me, it was the flavor and aesthetic, particularly the punching thing. However, the power level dix exacerbate the obnoxious aspects of the class for me. The whole Goku jumping into a battlefield full of trained swordsmen, killing them all with punches and folding his arms smugly thing felt very weird.

... Okay, that was a very underhanded description of the class and describes an event that never happened but the scenario kind of describes my visceral reaction to the class.

[AstralUniverse]

Before monks were hated for being too strong they were hated for being too fast. They were always hated for something, but it changed over the years.