Feel PvP rebuild tokens need to be a thing.

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UilliamNebel
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Feel PvP rebuild tokens need to be a thing.

Post by UilliamNebel » Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:54 am

Built a character up for solo-ing PvE more than anything.

But, it is two separate games, whether we all like it or not. And some RP jobs will make you 'content' for PVP, and you need a way to prep for that, such as min/max builds and gear chasing. So feel any character taking a job as a guard or such in a settlement should be allowed a rebuild token upon doing so to address it. Without active deterrent NPC guards, and how much build and gearing matters, it only keeps it a level playing field to allow rebuilding to make PvP viable characters if taking an RP guard job IC.

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Re: Feel PvP rebuild tokens need to be a thing.

Post by Good Character » Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:58 am

If it works for PvP, it works for PvE.

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Re: Feel PvP rebuild tokens need to be a thing.

Post by UilliamNebel » Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:04 am

Good Character wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:58 am
If it works for PvP, it works for PvE.
Demonstratively false, as a lot of people about the various build advice channels and forums would attest to.

Building a character for solo PvE, is not gonna make one well suited for PvP build wise. Plus, not everyone is interested in chasing the maxed gearing PvP can require to be competitive.

Lastly, 3.5 E wasn't designed to be a PvP game, neither was NWN. Its a bolt on, and more or less is a separate game.

But, whether we like it or not, there will be forced over laps. So, one way to address it is giving PC guard characters a rebuild upon becoming guards of a settlement.

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Re: Feel PvP rebuild tokens need to be a thing.

Post by Ork » Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:10 am

You can build for PvP and that build can be successful in PvE. I don't really understand what you're getting at. We currently enjoy free -relevels at the moment, but even that won't "level the playing field" if people are woefully uneducated about the mechanics of this game. And, while you might contend that 3.5 and nwn wasn't built with PvP in mind - Arelith was/is. Good news though, PvP is such a small fraction of qualitative roleplay.

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Re: Feel PvP rebuild tokens need to be a thing.

Post by UilliamNebel » Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:13 am

Well, alright, guess we all have to build and play for PvP from the go then, and play the game to make others happy. I mean, we already lost HiPS to make PvP players happy. May as well make everyone 'content' then and be complete with it.

So would suggest universal rebuild tokens, so all can make PvP viable existing characters as the new norm going forward, with a cut off date. Its about the only way I can see to make it fair.
Last edited by UilliamNebel on Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Feel PvP rebuild tokens need to be a thing.

Post by Ork » Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:15 am

UilliamNebel wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:13 am
Well, alright, guess we all have to build and play for PvP from the go then, and play the game to make others happy. I mean, we already lost HiPS to make PvP players happy. May as well make everyone 'content' then and be complete with it.

So would suggest universal rebuild tokens, so all can make PvP viable existing characters as the new norm going forward, with a cut off date. Its about the only way I can see to make it fair.
oh, that's how this is gonna go.

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Re: Feel PvP rebuild tokens need to be a thing.

Post by UilliamNebel » Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:27 am

Well, if we got HiPS gone for it's impact to PVP, then we obviously need to further make changes to make sure that it is as fair as possible, if that was the reasoning there. And also not let players unable to understand or have learned the mechanics of PvP because they had been pursuing builds more for an RP/PvE thinking not make that mistake. So might as well make a clear cut off, and give people on existing characters a means to make their current character more viable for PVP.

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Re: Feel PvP rebuild tokens need to be a thing.

Post by Ork » Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:29 am

Fortunately, they can make a new character at any time that is more viable at PvP than their current.

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Re: Feel PvP rebuild tokens need to be a thing.

Post by UilliamNebel » Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:32 am

And, they can also be given a rebuild token, to make their character viable for an RP role they may take on later, that requires PvP as well.

Edit: If elements of roll play are gonna exist with the role play. then there should be tools there to make it as synergetic as possible, if it is a RP server primarily then allowing a rebuild token for new guards, on old characters, seems a legit way to go about enabling that.

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Re: Feel PvP rebuild tokens need to be a thing.

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:44 am

Power building is not a requirement to be successful in pvp.
UilliamNebel wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:13 am
Well, alright, guess we all have to build and play for PvP from the go then, and play the game to make others happy.
I want to touch on this.


On my current character, when I built it, I had the option to go 100% full on pvp build, which would make my build worse for solo pve, and more party reliant and I consciously chose to slightly diminish my end-game pvp powerhouse potential to make the build more front-line pve friendly. This isnt about making other people happy, this is about building the character *for what you think you'll be doing with it*. Having the option to -relevel and shift to my more pvp oriented iteration of the build now that I'm already high lvl, would be unfair to the rest of the playerbase and I dont think such tokens are healthy for the balance both in pvp and pve (except like... now in these times of big updates, specifically).

Cheers.
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Feel PvP rebuild tokens need to be a thing.

Post by Ork » Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:52 am

Any option that encourages old characters to create new characters is an inherently good thing. Stagnation is a true threat to our PW that has to be meticulously managed. Allowing -relevel tokens ad infinitum when a character shifts only promotes that stagnation. I am sure once -relevels are gone, we'll see a lot of players rolling to start new stories.

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Re: Feel PvP rebuild tokens need to be a thing.

Post by UilliamNebel » Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:54 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:44 am
Power building is not a requirement to be successful in pvp.
It is however, if you are going to take on an RP role, that may/will be involved in PvP with builds that have been, along with gear, made only for the purpose of PvP. High end PvP gear takes the effort it does, and cost what it does for a reason, the fractions of edges it gives determines results. And before you even get to the gear, there is the build.

An RP role like a guard, requiring PvP, and likely to be taken on by an existing character, to help make a more fair game, should come with a rebuild token to address this reality of the game's implementation.

Also, the HiPS precedent. If a largely enjoyed PvE aspect of the game had to be removed, for balancing of PvP. Than another should be made as well to further make it a level playing field.

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Re: Feel PvP rebuild tokens need to be a thing.

Post by UilliamNebel » Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:57 am

Ork wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:52 am
Any option that encourages old characters to create new characters is an inherently good thing. Stagnation is a true threat to our PW that has to be meticulously managed. Allowing -relevel tokens ad infinitum when a character shifts only promotes that stagnation. I am sure once -relevels are gone, we'll see a lot of players rolling to start new stories.
Okay, well, who determines when a character has gotten old, or how that is stagnation? Who gets to judge other's RP of a character, done within the rules, and say 'Nah, this one no longer contributes to Arelith in game and should be gone?' If the matter is fairness of the game, and the system, and the HiPS precedent already set, then by fairness, old characters taking on these RP roles should be given a rebuild token.

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Re: Feel PvP rebuild tokens need to be a thing.

Post by Ork » Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:57 am

Alluding to the HiPS precedent, this is an example of how "leveling the playing field" is only accomplished through mechanical knowledge. HiPS does not allow for a spot roll immediately on stealth, and circumvents core mechanics of the game to achieve an advantage - flat-foot. Anyone that HiPS is guaranteed to break LoS on spells, interrupt attack queues, and cause opponents to lose all dex+dodge AC to crippling effects.

This wasn't an instance of curtailing PvE enjoyment, but correcting a broken mechanic.

And, truthfully - who gets to decide? The players. If they want more PvP clout, they can roll a new character.

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Re: Feel PvP rebuild tokens need to be a thing.

Post by UilliamNebel » Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:04 am

Bare bone fact, regardless the mechanic, an element of PvE and roleplay was taken away for PvPs sake. Regardless how mechanically broken it was is not the issue. The issue was, a game change was made, for the sake of fairness. This is also a game change, for fairness. Is it extreme, yeap, so was removing HiPS. But if fairness is the point, than another game change is certainly warranted here.

And as for
Ork wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:57 am
And, truthfully - who gets to decide? The players. If they want more PvP clout, they can roll a new character.
But you also wrote,
Ork wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:52 am
Stagnation is a true threat to our PW that has to be meticulously managed.
So which is it? Is it a threat or not? If players are allowed to determine this through solely self management, not really so much of a threat. If it must be managed, because it is a threat, than someone else must decide for those unwilling to self manage it.

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Re: Feel PvP rebuild tokens need to be a thing.

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:05 am

UilliamNebel wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:54 am
It is however, if you are going to take on an RP role, that may/will be involved in PvP with builds that have been, along with gear, made only for the purpose of PvP. High end PvP gear takes the effort it does, and cost what it does for a reason, the fractions of edges it gives determines results. And before you even get to the gear, there is the build.

An RP role like a guard, requiring PvP, and likely to be taken on by an existing character, to help make a more fair game, should come with a rebuild token to address this reality of the game's implementation.
If you're talking about Numbers vs Skill, then sure, numbers have a lot of weight, but between two lvl 30 PCs with at least semi-optimized builds, the more skilled players is likely going to win the pvp regardless of what builds they are using and how powerhouse it is in the meta.

If you're talking about the Stormwind Fallacy - the claim that one is a worse RPer if they build for mechanical optimization - it isnt real. The best RPer in the world can have a very mechanically optimized build for pvp and they will still RP their character sheet wonderfully and stay true to their stats, and RP them. You dont need to screw your build in order to feel like a better role player.

Try to look at it this way, perhaps.
Build all characters to be characters in Arelith. It doesnt matter if it's going to be a PC guard or a politician, there's no reason not to have a good build for pvp unless you're commoner (and even then you're useful in party pvp), it's a harsh world with a lot of violence, and you should assume there's going to be pvp sooner or later.
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Feel PvP rebuild tokens need to be a thing.

Post by UilliamNebel » Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:10 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:05 am
Build all characters to be characters in Arelith. It doesnt matter if it's going to be a PC guard or a politician, there's no reason not to have a good build for pvp unless you're commoner (and even then you're useful in party pvp), it's a harsh world with a lot of violence, and you should assume there's going to be pvp sooner or later.
So basically, on an RP focused server, we should all be PVP minded foremost, as that is going to be the defacto game experience of Arelith at the end of the day? Even though the differences in PvE and PvP builds, gearing, etc, are do to the system limitations of the game design, and to some extend technological. And if so, well that is fine, but Arelith should rebrand then, and make the new player experience much more heavily built around PvP.

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Re: Feel PvP rebuild tokens need to be a thing.

Post by Ork » Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:13 am

UilliamNebel wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:04 am
So which is it? Is it a threat or not? If players are allowed to determine this through solely self management, not really so much of a threat. If it must be managed, because it is a threat, than someone else must decide for those unwilling to self manage it.
I don't know man. You're looking for a gotcha but there really isn't one. Your character isn't good at PvP? Make one that is. That's the way the community manages stagnation - you get the carrot of maybe a reward after roll or get to enjoy new toys (classes, skills, abilities, etc.)

Most of us that have played here have had countless characters that weren't "optimized". Hell, 95% of the server is unoptimized, leveling, gearing, etc. You don't really have to have a PvP build to be successful in PvP, and you don't need to win PvP to do roleplay in areas that may be more prone to PvP related conflict.
Last edited by Ork on Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Feel PvP rebuild tokens need to be a thing.

Post by Ninjimmy » Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:14 am

RP doesnt start at 30 and nor do mechanics.

If your character has spent 30 levels growing and showing skills, you can't suddenly change the whole layout. If you make a PvE grind build, that IS your build.

Also, re:HiPS, if you need loaded dice to enjoy the game maybe consider why you want to play a multiplayer experience.
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Re: Feel PvP rebuild tokens need to be a thing.

Post by UilliamNebel » Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:17 am

Ninjimmy wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:14 am
Also, re:HiPS, if you need loaded dice to enjoy the game maybe consider why you want to play a multiplayer experience.
Was only loaded dice for PvP. And as a previous thread on the topic went into, when it was removed, there was no complaint to Arelith staff of its use in a PvP situation as I recall.

As for the insinuation of wishing to cheat or needing an exploit that you made, well fine. if you need to smear, go right ahead, that is not an argument or productive though.

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Re: Feel PvP rebuild tokens need to be a thing.

Post by Ninjimmy » Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:20 am

UilliamNebel wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:17 am
Ninjimmy wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:14 am
Also, re:HiPS, if you need loaded dice to enjoy the game maybe consider why you want to play a multiplayer experience.
Was only loaded dice for PvP. And as a previous thread on the topic went into, when it was removed, there was no complaint to Arelith staff of its use in a PvP situation as I recall.
I was IN that thread, and as I explained there and Ork has explained here- the mechanic breaks the action queue. Not only is it nigh impossible to log for a report unless you video all your sessions, it still effects PvE its just "victimless".

Its not a smear, it's what you keep asserting.
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Re: Feel PvP rebuild tokens need to be a thing.

Post by -XXX- » Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:21 am

I'd really like to avoit any potential "so you spent all this time and preparation researching how to beat my barbarian? Got'cha, I'm a druid today!" moments.

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Re: Feel PvP rebuild tokens need to be a thing.

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:25 am

UilliamNebel wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:10 am
AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:05 am
Build all characters to be characters in Arelith. It doesnt matter if it's going to be a PC guard or a politician, there's no reason not to have a good build for pvp unless you're commoner (and even then you're useful in party pvp), it's a harsh world with a lot of violence, and you should assume there's going to be pvp sooner or later.
So basically, on an RP focused server, we should all be PVP minded foremost, as that is going to be the defacto game experience of Arelith at the end of the day?
Yeah pretty much. Or you just acknowledge the fact that throwing in more snowflaky RP cookies or reliability in solo pve will cost you in other fields. Everything you do costs you in one way or another in other fields. I think character building should revolve around pvp, because again, there's no reason to have a bad build just to feel like you're more true to your concept so people are going to have good builds and you are living in this reality. You can pick generic 'meta' builds for your concepts and RP them as you wish. Plenty of room for many playstyles here.

Also, why is HipS being brought up so much here? It's literally broken feat that works in a very unintended way. People have abused it, and why wouldnt they? They are simply using it as it functions naturally in the game, which is terrible, but it's not their fault. It's really not related to this thread at all.
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Feel PvP rebuild tokens need to be a thing.

Post by Lindos » Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:29 am

Locking this topic.
First of all, this is more of a suggestion than it was feedback and the suggestion forum is closed for a reason.
Second, the tone of this conversation has gone beyond mere civil discourse.
Discord: Lindos#9637

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Re: Feel PvP rebuild tokens need to be a thing.

Post by DM Monkey » Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:05 am

Two last notes here:

- Players can build however they want to build to play the game.
- You should always try to consider your roleplay and the story that you are a part of. This is more important than mechanics on Arelith.

Try harder! Help set a good example of roleplay for the server culture.


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