Server has become overwhelmingly negative it feels

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LasharaDyran
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Re: Server has become overwhelmingly negative it feels

Post by LasharaDyran » Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:36 pm

I also think it's important to remember that bad news travels fast.

Good news....well, doesn't often make the news.

So for every negative thing you hear about there are probably 20 wholesome/funny/cute/fun/exciting things or more.
It can get easy to drown in the reports of bad news.
Talk about the good and fun things you hear about, and watch the negativity retract.

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Re: Server has become overwhelmingly negative it feels

Post by Ork » Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:01 pm

This is wholly a discord issue, and specifically a faction/settlement discord issue. I know at least on official these sorts of conversations get shut down, but I have witnessed vitriol spewed unending in settlement/faction discords. It poisons everyone it touches. That's not to say that discord is bad - I think when discord allows open communication between the two dissenting parties, it can be good. But, often times the mud-sligging happens when the victim isn't even present to defend themselves.

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Marsi
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Re: Server has become overwhelmingly negative it feels

Post by Marsi » Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:26 pm

Arelith once had a dedicated 8chan board to anonymously mock and rant about other players. When that wasn't enough, a splinter board was created with even fewer scruples. And when anonymous hatred itself stopped being enough, someone went and hacked the forums. The server was down for a while. Half the team left and have still not returned. Many players left for months, myself included.

We used to have a UD subforum, but it was nuked for too much negativity (and softcore p*rn). I've seen a lead admin quit in real time over a thread gone awry. Someone was hacked and publicly doxxed on the forums. It was completely accepted that DMs -- who at the time had tenure -- would play favorites and arbitrarily punish/favour based on who they hung out with player-side. Oh and not to mention the flavour of the month PvP kill squads.

All of this and I still couldn't claim I was around for the real "wild west" days of the server. Arelith has a long and sometimes ugly history and its good to have a bit of perspective. For a while now we've been in a very good place. Things are just, fair, and civil. If you think DMs are tyrants, or that PvP is really bad these days, or some other observation that Arelith in decline from the "halcyon days" of 2019, it's probably a sign you've never experienced Actually Bad times. Which is a good thing!

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Re: Server has become overwhelmingly negative it feels

Post by LIAR LIAR » Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:40 pm

Everyone excusing current behavior because it doesn't blatantly break the rules is ridiculous.

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Re: Server has become overwhelmingly negative it feels

Post by Flower Power » Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:56 pm

Avoid Discord. It's (mostly) what I do.

And when you do go on one of the private faction/settlement Discords, if you see someone spewing toxicity in their private little soapbox - send an invite link or a screenshot to one of the DMs. It's back and forth on whether or not they'll actually police Discord, but it never hurts.
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Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: Server has become overwhelmingly negative it feels

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:53 am

Marsi wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:26 pm
Arelith once had a dedicated 8chan board to anonymously mock and rant about other players. When that wasn't enough, a splinter board was created with even fewer scruples. And when anonymous hatred itself stopped being enough, someone went and hacked the forums. The server was down for a while. Half the team left and have still not returned. Many players left for months, myself included.

We used to have a UD subforum, but it was nuked for too much negativity (and softcore p*rn). I've seen a lead admin quit in real time over a thread gone awry. Someone was hacked and publicly doxxed on the forums. It was completely accepted that DMs -- who at the time had tenure -- would play favorites and arbitrarily punish/favour based on who they hung out with player-side. Oh and not to mention the flavour of the month PvP kill squads.

All of this and I still couldn't claim I was around for the real "wild west" days of the server. Arelith has a long and sometimes ugly history and its good to have a bit of perspective. For a while now we've been in a very good place. Things are just, fair, and civil. If you think DMs are tyrants, or that PvP is really bad these days, or some other observation that Arelith in decline from the "halcyon days" of 2019, it's probably a sign you've never experienced Actually Bad times. Which is a good thing!
I really liked reading this because it really does put things in perspective. These are good examples of true server effecting negativity, and someone raging on discord (whether they have a valid point or not) doesn't even come close to this level of behavior. The reality is that I have read since 2017 probably well over 100 rants about pvp, and I couldn't tell you the thesis behind any of them. On the flip side of that, every time I've been in pvp where someone cheesed along the edges of the rules or just flagrantly broke them just to get the win I remember with absolute clarity and they have each adversely effected my opinion of Arelith pvp to some level. Not enough to give it up all together quite yet, but it has made me think that I just don't have the level of grime in my system to keep up sometimes. Like I said above, true server effecting negativity.

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Re: Server has become overwhelmingly negative it feels

Post by Duchess Says » Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:04 am

Discord is close to mandatory now. If you need tech help or have a question you'll most often get results instantly. Post the same things on the forums and they'll be ignored or take days to get a reply. DMs answer Discord messages quickly, forums can sometimes take days or never get an answer as well. Discord channels are pretty useful for arranging moots and so on since you can't ask "what day is good for everyone" in game-speak very easily (assuming you can even find a way to meet up in game to ask) and OOC messages in the "factions" system seem to be ignored at least in the circles I travel. The official Arelith Discord is a great and at this point essential tool. Most faction channels I've seen have been friendly or at least civil and not full of toxicity at all. I'm sure those exist but it's not really fair or accurate to paint all channels like that.

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-XXX-
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Re: Server has become overwhelmingly negative it feels

Post by -XXX- » Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:43 am

IMO a lot of tension stems from OOC tribalism and faction echo chambers.
I observed player clique rivalry bleeding over inbetween character rotations.
This can then appear like the following conflict isn't really so much an IC narrative device, but rather a form of OOC payback between players.

This isn't really alsomething new. It's just being exacerbated by the excessive use of Discord.

Duchess Says wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:04 am
Discord is close to mandatory now.
Strongly disagree with Discord being mandatory.
The Q&A subsection of the forums is a great source of information and sending a tell to players with the "?" badge IG is also an option.

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Re: Server has become overwhelmingly negative it feels

Post by Nitro » Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:11 am

Marsi wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:26 pm
All of this and I still couldn't claim I was around for the real "wild west" days of the server.
*gets violent flashbacks to roving killsquads in the streets of baronial cordor*

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Re: Server has become overwhelmingly negative it feels

Post by Skibbles » Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:51 am

You can't have an adventure without risk.

Discord is like training wheels in that they're always useful, even if you know how to ride a bike already, but I don't think there's any substitute for taking them off, at great trepidation, and discovering that you were capable of more than you gave yourself credit for.

Take the risk. Leave all the channels. Grand unforgettable moments have been had without Skype and Discord and they will again.

Disclaimer: Don't go on a real adventure outside. You might get sticky. Gross.
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Re: Server has become overwhelmingly negative it feels

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:29 pm

Marsi wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:26 pm
Arelith once had a dedicated 8chan board to anonymously mock and rant about other players. When that wasn't enough, a splinter board was created with even fewer scruples. And when anonymous hatred itself stopped being enough, someone went and hacked the forums. The server was down for a while. Half the team left and have still not returned. Many players left for months, myself included.

We used to have a UD subforum, but it was nuked for too much negativity (and softcore p*rn). I've seen a lead admin quit in real time over a thread gone awry. Someone was hacked and publicly doxxed on the forums. It was completely accepted that DMs -- who at the time had tenure -- would play favorites and arbitrarily punish/favour based on who they hung out with player-side. Oh and not to mention the flavour of the month PvP kill squads.

All of this and I still couldn't claim I was around for the real "wild west" days of the server. Arelith has a long and sometimes ugly history and its good to have a bit of perspective. For a while now we've been in a very good place. Things are just, fair, and civil. If you think DMs are tyrants, or that PvP is really bad these days, or some other observation that Arelith in decline from the "halcyon days" of 2019, it's probably a sign you've never experienced Actually Bad times. Which is a good thing!
Ooof! This post is 100% spot on. I even remember both of these explosions as a young player who barely or never speaks in the forums and just reads sometimes. I even recall a marriage (of an Admin's close friend) breaking up because of sexy elven fun times and lots of fury all over the place. I'm so glad I wasnt very active in ooc platforms back in the day or I would probably leave and never return.
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Lexx
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Re: Server has become overwhelmingly negative it feels

Post by Lexx » Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:35 pm

Ork wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:01 pm
This is wholly a discord issue, and specifically a faction/settlement discord issue. I know at least on official these sorts of conversations get shut down, but I have witnessed vitriol spewed unending in settlement/faction discords. It poisons everyone it touches. That's not to say that discord is bad - I think when discord allows open communication between the two dissenting parties, it can be good. But, often times the mud-sligging happens when the victim isn't even present to defend themselves.
The thing is to say this is a new thing with discord is blatantly false. There were skype groups and before that ventrilo and similar voice chat programs that all had their influence at the time in Arelith's history. Discord is just the current flavor of the month platform being used and something else will replace it in future. It's impossible to stop use of such platforms in relation to the server.

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Re: Server has become overwhelmingly negative it feels

Post by Emotionaloverload » Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:40 pm

Unlike anytime before, we have an official discord. I recommend that you stick to that one (since it can be very helpful, especially for players that don't have a lot of time to play) and stay out of the faction/group specific ones. Its the ones everyone seems to be having trouble with.

Try to keep it IG and ignore the other stuff.
7. Please, where possible, avoid setting up or joining private (closed) discord groups with fellow players. While not forbidden, this all too often undermines the sense of community on Arelith which we have worked very hard over the years to foster, and instead splinters the player-base into competing cliques.

-S
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Re: Server has become overwhelmingly negative it feels

Post by Curve » Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:51 pm

Lexx wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:35 pm
The thing is to say this is a new thing with discord is blatantly false. There were skype groups and before that ventrilo and similar voice chat programs that all had their influence at the time in Arelith's history. Discord is just the current flavor of the month platform being used and something else will replace it in future. It's impossible to stop use of such platforms in relation to the server.
I doubt that anyone is suggesting that use of these platforms should be stopped by server policy. Rather what is being said is that people have had the exact same or similar problems as the op as a direct result of using these platforms. Just saying user beware.

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-XXX-
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Re: Server has become overwhelmingly negative it feels

Post by -XXX- » Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:17 pm

I don't think that fair comparisons have been drawn here.
Should we really be comparing occassional incidents of extremely unacceptable player behavior with consistent, increasing resentment displayed by players on daily basis?

While rare instances of the former could be found and cherrypicked as examples throughout the entire history of the server, the latter appears to have become more prominent since the rise of Discord's popularity as the go-to means of OOC communication.

So yeah, be mindful of this and use at your own risk I guess... and listen to Bill & Ted if you do!

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Re: Server has become overwhelmingly negative it feels

Post by Deryliss » Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:48 pm

I've been trying to write a reply to this thread for some time, but it's a difficult topic to tackle.

I think Discord isn't the problem, it's just the place where the problem is crystallizing. It could be AOL Instant Messenger, it could be a bboard forum, it could be a network of specially trained carrier pigeons. The tech isn't the issue.

The problem is the constant pvp conflict with no means to an end, perpetuated by factions whose only purpose is that selfsame pvp without end. The problem is pvp encounters that end but don't move the dial towards a conclusion, they just add to the highlight reel of IC reasons why the conflict exists and should continue.

Discord is being the fall guy here for a much bigger problem. That problem is that pvp isn't a good way to solve IC conflict, and primarily serves to perpetuate it.
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Ork
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Re: Server has become overwhelmingly negative it feels

Post by Ork » Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:02 pm

Lexx wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:35 pm
Ork wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:01 pm
This is wholly a discord issue, and specifically a faction/settlement discord issue. I know at least on official these sorts of conversations get shut down, but I have witnessed vitriol spewed unending in settlement/faction discords. It poisons everyone it touches. That's not to say that discord is bad - I think when discord allows open communication between the two dissenting parties, it can be good. But, often times the mud-sligging happens when the victim isn't even present to defend themselves.
The thing is to say this is a new thing with discord is blatantly false. There were skype groups and before that ventrilo and similar voice chat programs that all had their influence at the time in Arelith's history. Discord is just the current flavor of the month platform being used and something else will replace it in future. It's impossible to stop use of such platforms in relation to the server.
I never said it was new, and yes it is impossible to stop this - but you should probably feel bad if you're facilitating a sub-community that's toxic.

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Re: Server has become overwhelmingly negative it feels

Post by Lexx » Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:05 pm

Ork wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:02 pm
Lexx wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:35 pm
Ork wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:01 pm
This is wholly a discord issue, and specifically a faction/settlement discord issue. I know at least on official these sorts of conversations get shut down, but I have witnessed vitriol spewed unending in settlement/faction discords. It poisons everyone it touches. That's not to say that discord is bad - I think when discord allows open communication between the two dissenting parties, it can be good. But, often times the mud-sligging happens when the victim isn't even present to defend themselves.
The thing is to say this is a new thing with discord is blatantly false. There were skype groups and before that ventrilo and similar voice chat programs that all had their influence at the time in Arelith's history. Discord is just the current flavor of the month platform being used and something else will replace it in future. It's impossible to stop use of such platforms in relation to the server.
I never said it was new, and yes it is impossible to stop this - but you should probably feel bad if you're facilitating a sub-community that's toxic.
And there I agree. Though as said above secondary media/chats are not the cause but the symptom.

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Re: Server has become overwhelmingly negative it feels

Post by Ork » Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:14 pm

Deryliss wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:48 pm
The problem is that pvp isn't a good way to solve IC conflict, and primarily serves to perpetuate it.
I disagree here. The only way these encounters spiral is when both parties choose to persist. If I make a faction aimed at controlling Cordor's mercantile & I get body beaten by an opposing faction - and then I choose to continue as if nothing happened I am culpable of bad roleplay.

PvP is a tool. Good roleplayers use it despite the outcome, and great roleplayers use bad pvp as a catalyst for other's stories.

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Re: Server has become overwhelmingly negative it feels

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:15 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:17 pm
I don't think that fair comparisons have been drawn here.
Should we really be comparing occassional incidents of extremely unacceptable player behavior with consistent, increasing resentment displayed by players on daily basis?

While rare instances of the former could be found and cherrypicked as examples throughout the entire history of the server, the latter appears to have become more prominent since the rise of Discord's popularity as the go-to means of OOC communication.

So yeah, be mindful of this and use at your own risk I guess... and listen to Bill & Ted if you do!
I don't know if its a comparison as much as examples of things that truly have a negative effect on the server. What you are describing in the rest of your post isn't contained to arelith, and is actually a societal problem. Connectivity is the gasoline on the fire, sure, but its more a us versus them at all costs mentality that has spread from political divides across western civilization into all facets of society including video game communities. No one really wants to find a common ground any more, its just you are wrong and they are right. If you think Arelith's forums has the solution, by all means give it a shot. But while again Discord is part of that connectivity I called gasoline on the fire earlier, its also likely the best path to a solution, since the only way this ever gets fixed no matter what the context is is if people actually start listening to each other.

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Re: Server has become overwhelmingly negative it feels

Post by Deryliss » Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:17 pm

Ork wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:14 pm
Deryliss wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:48 pm
The problem is that pvp isn't a good way to solve IC conflict, and primarily serves to perpetuate it.
I disagree here. The only way these encounters spiral is when both parties choose to persist. If I make a faction aimed at controlling Cordor's mercantile & I get body beaten by an opposing faction - and then I choose to continue as if nothing happened I am culpable of bad roleplay.

PvP is a tool. Good roleplayers use it despite the outcome, and great roleplayers use bad pvp as a catalyst for other's stories.
That requires one of the sides to lose gracefully. At that point the pvp wasn't what resolved it, it was just the event that moved the story to its next chapter. It could have been a game of rock-paper-scissors. It could have been staking everything on a roll of the die. If people in pvp were willing to lose gracefully we wouldn't be having this problem.
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Re: Server has become overwhelmingly negative it feels

Post by Curve » Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:29 pm

Yeah, I have had people dump on my character's in pretty wack ways over the years and I did not rage, or freak out, or send a bunch of crazy tells. If it was a rule break I sent a report, if it was not they I just dealt with it. Sure, people should not play badly. What is also true is that we need to hold one another accountable for acting like babies. It is never ever ever acceptable to rage on anyone through tells, through voice chat, through pms, through discord. There is never an in game happening that justifies that behavior. People who do this should be reported and ostracized and let to know that that type of communication will result in this type of response.

This should also be done with shit talking and rumor mongering. Call people out and x them out if they persist.

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Re: Server has become overwhelmingly negative it feels

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:48 pm

Curve wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:29 pm
People who do this should be reported and ostracized and let to know that that type of communication will result in this type of response.

Reported, yes. If you are actively trying to get someone ostracized from the community you are as bad as they are, if not worse.

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Re: Server has become overwhelmingly negative it feels

Post by triaddraykin » Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:49 pm

Ork wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:14 pm
Deryliss wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:48 pm
The problem is that pvp isn't a good way to solve IC conflict, and primarily serves to perpetuate it.
I disagree here. The only way these encounters spiral is when both parties choose to persist. If I make a faction aimed at controlling Cordor's mercantile & I get body beaten by an opposing faction - and then I choose to continue as if nothing happened I am culpable of bad roleplay.

PvP is a tool. Good roleplayers use it despite the outcome, and great roleplayers use bad pvp as a catalyst for other's stories.
In that scenario what would be an example of a good reaction, and good role play?
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Re: Server has become overwhelmingly negative it feels

Post by Curve » Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:11 pm

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:48 pm
Reported, yes. If you are actively trying to get someone ostracized from the community you are as bad as they are, if not worse.
Yes, of course. What I am not talking about is campaigning for anything. What I am talking about how I personally react to this type of negativity.
triaddraykin wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:49 pm
In that scenario what would be an example of a good reaction, and good role play?
Let the people who beat your character up have the win they earned. Respect the pvp loss and let it affect your rp moving forward. You could have many different reactions past that: your character says I want no part of that conflict I am now afraid of that powerful force, your character slowly starts to build an alliance against your new oppressor, or whatever your imagination can summon.

I think the what not to do is the most important as it pertains to this conversations, though. Don't tell yourself, "if those cheaters had not done X i would be the champion of the merchants!" and wait till 24 hours have passed to run back in with your goon squad.

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