Fighter, Paladin, & Uncanny Dodge
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Fighter, Paladin, & Uncanny Dodge
Hope you are all well! This is mainly FAO the balance/class devs, but I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts.
When looking at Fighter recently, it struck me as odd that it doesn't get Uncanny Dodge I, unlike many other 'melee' base classes. For example, Barbarian (2), Hex (12), Monk (12), Ranger (8), Rogue (3), SS (3), and Swash (12). Paladin is also like Fighter, an outlier that doesn't get Uncanny Dodge I naturally.
It means, realistically, if you're optimally building heavy/deep Fighter or Paladin and you want Uncanny Dodge I, you're essentially forced into a Rogue dip. It's either that, or to go without the feat, and accept the lost AC on attack via invisible or hidden creatures. Overall, this feels negative for build variety, and incongruent to the other, aforementioned 'melee' classes.
I'm curious:
1) Is this is intentional, and if so why?
2) If it isn't intentional, would a Dev be open to looking at adding it to the classes?
I'm by no means perfectly versed in all classes and balance, but I cannot see a balance reason why Fighter and Paladin, at some point in their levels (perhaps, the 8-20 range), don't get Uncanny Dodge I.
Looking forward to hearing from you all.
All the best,
Pala.
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Re: Fighter, Paladin, & Uncanny Dodge
Paladin
Bard
BG
Would all be contenders? I’m no expert, it’s not like we’d be giving evasion to every melee character- lol.
My $0.10 is free!
Re: Fighter, Paladin, & Uncanny Dodge
As of Enhanced Edition patch 1.74, uncanny dodge II grants immunity to sneak attacks from a flanking attacker unless the attacker has at least four more combined class levels of rogue, assassin, and barbarian than the defender. (Shadowdancer and blackguard levels are not counted.) For example, a level 10 rogue would have this immunity when attacked by a level 13 rogue, but not when attacked by a level 14 rogue. This immunity does not apply when the defender is flat-footed.
However if this bonus would apply if added to a class not specified above i am unsure.
Talandis Tanor'Thal
Kalnafein Cress'delbarra
Tanis Thade
Merklynn Steelshadow II
Gulmyr Dro'Vaalvaz
Aerik Northman
Re: Fighter, Paladin, & Uncanny Dodge
Re: Fighter, Paladin, & Uncanny Dodge
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Re: Fighter, Paladin, & Uncanny Dodge
the one build that """suffers""" the most is probably the brycer wearing chainmail of the holy knight. that said I sincerely doubt there's a single 27 fighter 3 paladin character with this item equipped. please correct me if im wrong ( and if so please tell us how are you handling the 4 ac loss when being attacked from stealth/invis )
now onto a more important topic: why are spellswords called spellswords, but some of them aren't even using swords?
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Re: Fighter, Paladin, & Uncanny Dodge
You know I always wondered why my barbarians didn’t get sneak attacked more- I had no clue about this LololApothys wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:25 pmWell uncanny dodge is quite powerful as it advances:
As of Enhanced Edition patch 1.74, uncanny dodge II grants immunity to sneak attacks from a flanking attacker unless the attacker has at least four more combined class levels of rogue, assassin, and barbarian than the defender. (Shadowdancer and blackguard levels are not counted.) For example, a level 10 rogue would have this immunity when attacked by a level 13 rogue, but not when attacked by a level 14 rogue. This immunity does not apply when the defender is flat-footed.
However if this bonus would apply if added to a class not specified above i am unsure.
Re: Fighter, Paladin, & Uncanny Dodge
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Re: Fighter, Paladin, & Uncanny Dodge
Svrtr wrote:I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too
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Re: Fighter, Paladin, & Uncanny Dodge
Full Sneak attack Immunity if you go 27 barbarian for example? Or can you still be sneaked if you're flat-footed as per usual?Apothys wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:25 pmAs of Enhanced Edition patch 1.74, uncanny dodge II grants immunity to sneak attacks from a flanking attacker unless the attacker has at least four more combined class levels of rogue, assassin, and barbarian than the defender. (Shadowdancer and blackguard levels are not counted.) For example, a level 10 rogue would have this immunity when attacked by a level 13 rogue, but not when attacked by a level 14 rogue. This immunity does not apply when the defender is flat-footed.
sorry for double posting.
Svrtr wrote:I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too
Re: Fighter, Paladin, & Uncanny Dodge
Sneak immunity at that level Barb unless flatfooteded I believe.AstralUniverse wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:37 pmFull Sneak attack Immunity if you go 27 barbarian for example? Or can you still be sneaked if you're flat-footed as per usual?Apothys wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:25 pmAs of Enhanced Edition patch 1.74, uncanny dodge II grants immunity to sneak attacks from a flanking attacker unless the attacker has at least four more combined class levels of rogue, assassin, and barbarian than the defender. (Shadowdancer and blackguard levels are not counted.) For example, a level 10 rogue would have this immunity when attacked by a level 13 rogue, but not when attacked by a level 14 rogue. This immunity does not apply when the defender is flat-footed.
sorry for double posting.
Talandis Tanor'Thal
Kalnafein Cress'delbarra
Tanis Thade
Merklynn Steelshadow II
Gulmyr Dro'Vaalvaz
Aerik Northman
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Re: Fighter, Paladin, & Uncanny Dodge
Svrtr wrote:I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too
Re: Fighter, Paladin, & Uncanny Dodge
RP wise I always saw UD as a skill that lightly armored, non traditional warriors learned and that traditional platemail wearing warriors would not be versed in it. So it just kind of makes sense to me.
Re: Fighter, Paladin, & Uncanny Dodge
I don't understand the citing of Dex Fighter 25/WM 5 as a reason deep Fighter/Paladin shouldn't get Uncanny Dodge I. Firstly, it's not a build that's an outlier in terms of power. I would imagine those who think it is are motivated by a bias against Dex builds in general. Either way, I'm not aware of any experienced players that play Dex Fighter 25/WM 5, or are interested in it/worried about coming up against it. Secondly, to use a single, niche build as an example for why two entire classes, including if built Strength (or even Zen Archery), shouldn't get the Feat seems illogical. Or, at the very least, the logic of saying deep Fighter/Paladin shouldn't get Uncanny Dodge I because you can make a Dex Fighter/WM is somewhat equatable to saying any build that can go Dex shouldn't get it. Which, of course, shouldn't be the case.
And that circles me back to my original post: I can't see a logical reason why Fighter and Paladin do not get Uncanny Dodge I, given the classes that do have it.
Would love to hear from a balance/class dev.
Re: Fighter, Paladin, & Uncanny Dodge
Paladins and Fighters are toe to toe melee combatants. In your face tanks. Not acrobats, not lightly armored rage machines moving with boosts of speed or skilled in ducking and dodging.
Tanks do not dodge anything, they barrel in without bothering to glance at their flanks, hence why they have supporting players that handle that.
Other answer is every class doesnt need to have what others have.
Re: Fighter, Paladin, & Uncanny Dodge
In reply to the above, Dex Fighters/Paladin's aren't usually going to be in heavy armour (not to mention that even full plate allows for a fair bit of mobility in real life, but that's neither here nor there.)
Re: Fighter, Paladin, & Uncanny Dodge
Hi Ebonstar,
I'm quite certain your explanation is not the 'simple answer', considering a number of the other classes that have Uncanny Dodge I can also be 'toe to toe melee combatants' or 'face tanks', and are not necessarily 'acrobats', or 'lightly armored'.
But, thank you for your input.
Re: Fighter, Paladin, & Uncanny Dodge
like I did. Here's a few:
Div bard
Dex (or even str) fighter wm
Brycers
Heavy wm
Fighter cot wm
None of these are on my list to buff. Perhaps you should list what builds you think deserve this buff?
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Re: Fighter, Paladin, & Uncanny Dodge
Svrtr wrote:I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too
Re: Fighter, Paladin, & Uncanny Dodge
Thanks for the input, Astral, and points I agree with.AstralUniverse wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:28 pmI dont particularly mind if Fighter had uncanny dodge...
I think some people are very concerned with Dex in general due to the prevalent (and perhaps inaccurate), long-running narrative(s) surrounding it, and that's clouding/misleading their perspectives on my original point(s).
To clarify again: I've just been referring to deep Fighter and Paladin, regardless of main stat, not with a specific focus on 'empowering' Dex. Both classes getting the Feat would also aid Strength builds. And in the field of 'melee' classes, which can all be built optimally as Strength as well as Dex (or in some cases Wis, tri-stat, or otherwise, etc), these are the only two that don't get Uncanny Dodge I.
Re: Fighter, Paladin, & Uncanny Dodge
Heavy paladin can use something but it's not uncanny dodge that it needs.
People can disagree with you without their opinions being clouded.
Re: Fighter, Paladin, & Uncanny Dodge
The thing is, once you grant deep fighter/paladin uncanny dodge, then it means there is 1 less class they have to dip to make use of that dex AC. This means, they don't need rogue for tumble and can then take something that is gonna provide more benefits, like swashbuckler or something else. It also means they get to further maximize a lot of their in class benefits which many scale with class level. And if fighter and paladin get it, why not Black Guard and Divine Champion. Opening up 3 class levels for another dip or to increase your scaling is a huge boon to a couple of classes that are already quite strong. Fighter is fairly balanced and paladin class, specifically div-dex builds, are one of the top builds on the server right now in terms of AC/AB potential.Pala wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:15 pmThanks for the input, Astral, and points I agree with.AstralUniverse wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:28 pmI dont particularly mind if Fighter had uncanny dodge...
I think some people are very concerned with Dex in general due to the prevalent (and perhaps inaccurate), long-running narrative(s) surrounding it, and that's clouding/misleading their perspectives on my original point(s).
To clarify again: I've just been referring to deep Fighter and Paladin, regardless of main stat, not with a specific focus on 'empowering' Dex. Both classes getting the Feat would also aid Strength builds. And in the field of 'melee' classes, which can all be built optimally as Strength as well as Dex (or in some cases Wis, tri-stat, or otherwise, etc), these are the only two that don't get Uncanny Dodge I.
Yes, there is no reason to think a paladin should not be a dex based bounce around on his toes fighter. The same is true for fighter. But this argument can't be made on the merits of abstract class ideas but only in terms of balance.
Honestly, a few more classes could lose uncanny dodge and I would be totally okay with it.
Re: Fighter, Paladin, & Uncanny Dodge
Considering new Warlock has now also gotten Uncanny Dodge I (at level 10), perhaps it's a great chance to use this opportunity to reflect on the lack of it for Fighter and Paladin.
All the best,
Pala.