Some warlock feedback

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kinginyellow
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by kinginyellow » Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:45 pm

If I had to guess why Haste has been given as a pact spell to every greater pact warlock, its because Quicken Spell's interaction with blasts right now is really janky compared to the old implementation.

It makes Warlocks deal less damage on the first round, and for hideous blow locks especially, even with the new changes that allows you to not get your attack delayed past the window for a quickened blow, moving around in combat still means you'll sometimes only do one blow per round.

Having Haste as a Pact Spell fixes this problem until a better implementation of Quickened Blasts and Blast Shapes can be implemented.

Edit: If the question is not why they get it as a pact spell, and instead why they get it as a spell in their spellbook at all:

Inheritance from old lock. Feylocks had it so they keep it, and the current warlock just gets a much wider spell list. Just like how they keep having Tier 6 summons, despite in the tabletop only having invocations like The Dead Walk which were very anemic.

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Watchful Glare
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Watchful Glare » Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:06 am

The Haste being made universal (albeit on cooldown) was a breath of fresh air. Like the poster above, I believe it was related. I am compiling my experiences as I continue to level up the Warlock. I like that some CC was kept on most pacts list, even when Darkness was removed from some pacts. (I found myself using Fear for CC, instead of Darkness, it's not as good considering it's on a DC that's not particularly high, but it works while remaining thematically nice)-
Last edited by Watchful Glare on Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by a shrouded figure » Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:31 pm

I did a quick test on PGCC and the warlock / hex synergy still seems odd.

23 Hex / 3 BG / 4 Warlock would pretty much be the standard hex build now but it appears the warlock levels are not working for everything. Curse weapon is showing +5 so that’s good- but curse of sacrifice is still only at 4th tier (8 damage) as well as curse of blood is only draining 4 life. I would assume that the only thing scaling is weapon enhancement as I don’t have a great way to test hex of neglect, curse of life, hex of hallucination or the AC from hex

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Kalopsia » Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:02 pm

a shrouded figure wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:31 pm
I did a quick test on PGCC and the warlock / hex synergy still seems odd.

23 Hex / 3 BG / 4 Warlock would pretty much be the standard hex build now but it appears the warlock levels are not working for everything. Curse weapon is showing +5 so that’s good- but curse of sacrifice is still only at 4th tier (8 damage) as well as curse of blood is only draining 4 life. I would assume that the only thing scaling is weapon enhancement as I don’t have a great way to test hex of neglect, curse of life, hex of hallucination or the AC from hex
A bugfix for some of this is not live on PGCC yet.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Rico_scorpion » Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:41 pm

Not sure if intended or not, but the "Blasphemy scroll" required for the warlock staff is really a pain. Like, only a cleric with scribe scroll can scribe it (or a warlock, but unsure why a warlock would take scribe scroll), so you're already looking for that, then there's no chance to find it in a shop as demand for it is non-existant, and then that cleric needs to be willing to actually scribe it for you (that much harder if you're on surface). Add to it the fact that if you ask the wrong person you actually outed yourself as a baddie. And finally, but I might be wrong, I don't remember even seeing it in the loot matrix.

Given that a certain NPC in a certain extraplanar dark place sells high level necromancy spells, maybe Blapshemy could be added to the list of sold scrolls there? Alternatively removing or changing the nature of the required scroll would go a long way.

Cheers.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Eyeliner » Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:59 am

Rico_scorpion wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:41 pm
unsure why a warlock would take scribe scroll
To sell or have extra on hand greater spell breach, shadow shield, possibly rogue cunning if it's scribable, true seeing, create greater undead, probably a few others? Or to sell blasphemy scrolls to other warlocks :)

Plus taking a craft magic feat makes them full enchanters IIRC.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Kuma » Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:47 am

Rico_scorpion wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:41 pm
as demand for it is non-existant
The class has only been in a week, give it a chance. I reckon you'll start seeing people sell them in stacks of 50 fairly soonish. As for outing oneself, Skull Emblems are almost exclusively used for evil aligned items, but they're still sold fairly widely.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Archnon » Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:11 pm

Any chance pacts could grant access to skills that get a bonus as class skills. The one that sticks out is set trap for Hag's but that is because that is what I am playing. I am sure there are others.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Kalopsia » Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:02 pm

Archnon wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:11 pm
Any chance pacts could grant access to skills that get a bonus as class skills. The one that sticks out is set trap for Hag's but that is because that is what I am playing. I am sure there are others.
Sadly the game engine doesn't let us use feats to enable new class skills :(

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Archnon » Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:28 pm

Kalopsia wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:02 pm
Archnon wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:11 pm
Any chance pacts could grant access to skills that get a bonus as class skills. The one that sticks out is set trap for Hag's but that is because that is what I am playing. I am sure there are others.
Sadly the game engine doesn't let us use feats to enable new class skills :(
The only two that aren't included then are Use Trap and Animal empathy. These are both secondary skills on pacts, Hag getting Bluff and Seelie Perform. So not giving either sort of makes sense. However ...

Perhaps these could just be added. I could make a strong case for use trap, especially given the other skills include UMD. Animal empathy is a harder case for the Seelie pact. Maybe considered changing AE for Hide as the bonus skill? Would still fit the fey MO. I don't know. Just hard to justify investing in use trap through a dip. Animal empathy is in the same boat.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Kalopsia » Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:45 pm

Archnon wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:28 pm
Kalopsia wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:02 pm
Archnon wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:11 pm
Any chance pacts could grant access to skills that get a bonus as class skills. The one that sticks out is set trap for Hag's but that is because that is what I am playing. I am sure there are others.
Sadly the game engine doesn't let us use feats to enable new class skills :(
The only two that aren't included then are Use Trap and Animal empathy. These are both secondary skills on pacts, Hag getting Bluff and Seelie Perform. So not giving either sort of makes sense. However ...

Perhaps these could just be added. I could make a strong case for use trap, especially given the other skills include UMD. Animal empathy is a harder case for the Seelie pact. Maybe considered changing AE for Hide as the bonus skill? Would still fit the fey MO. I don't know. Just hard to justify investing in use trap through a dip. Animal empathy is in the same boat.
Animal Empathy is very functional on an Unseelie warlock, even with cross-class investment. You're a CHA-based class and have a +9 bonus, so with 16 invested ranks your final AE is around 38. That's about as much as a druid with full investment and One With The Land.

Use Trap is admittedly a bit harder to justify, but I consider it more of a flavor choice :)

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Archnon » Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:24 pm

Kalopsia wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:45 pm
[[Tons of wisdom abbreviated for sanity]]
I see what you are saying. You can pull off traps with dex-lock as well. The two problems are 1.) you will need to gear to make your own traps because you can't take 20 when crafting a trap (though, perhaps that could be a suggestion for later) 2.) you will need to gear to set epic traps, more than likely.

It is a bit of a silly niche as you won't ever be able to take 20 in combat which adds a significant complication. You shouldn't have a problem hitting deadly traps even in combat (d20+15(full skill investment)+9+10(minimum dex on a dexlock) = 34 ... )that even accounts for potentially taking a -4 from armor and you are still good for most.

Granting set trap as a class skill is mostly a minor qol thing if you want to play a hag that sets traps. Lets you hit 30 on skill which gives you a little buffer for epic traps out of combat without needing to gear. However, i don't see this being a popular build and the squeakier wheels probably deserve the grease. Thanks for entertaining my suggestion.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Eyeliner » Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:12 pm

FWIW hexblades get use trap as a skill so you could dip 3 levels for that and a little hexing.

Also a question since I'm posting, the rumor mill had it that eldrich armor might have its 24 strength requirement dropped to 20 or 22. Is that being looked at or should I consider it not happening? Thx

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by kinginyellow » Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:19 pm

Doesn't seem like Eldritch Armor is getting any additional changes, and yeah the 24 STR requirement is still tough, but a full plate warlock with haste shadow shield, an addy tower shield (or the +4 large shield) and improved expertise should hit 60 AC now, with access to concealment from a full caster level class (which means improved invis lasts half an hour).

And even with the -10 ab from imp expertise at least in PVE you'll be hitting very often since touch ac tends to be drastically lower than regular ac.

I see this as a good change that makes eldritch armor worth taking ,even though the itemization for it still isn't great.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Eyeliner » Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:29 pm

Honestly I'm mostly curious because of a hexblade I have, I didn't like playing that class & I'm trying to salvage it as a warlock but can't quite get 24 str in time for the feat (mostly cause 14 cha now and want to also get 18 there for full casting).

Otherwise I'm not arguing against or in favor of anything- just selfishly want to know for myself :)

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:05 am

I think the dark invocation for gate should be longer duration for a once per day ability.

You are better off taking ESF: Lore and that general feat for plus 5 lore and shoot for the lore 80 to use gate scrolls (along wiht all the other high lore cookies) instead.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Good Character » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:16 am

Eyeliner wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:29 pm
Honestly I'm mostly curious because of a hexblade I have, I didn't like playing that class & I'm trying to salvage it as a warlock but can't quite get 24 str in time for the feat (mostly cause 14 cha now and want to also get 18 there for full casting).

Otherwise I'm not arguing against or in favor of anything- just selfishly want to know for myself :)
It depends on your base statline and what you intend to accomplish (i.e. ranged vs. melee vs. healer). I am going to go out on a limb and assume your statline is something like 16/10/14/14/8/14. At that point I would just scrap the build as it will be impossible to hit 24 STR and 18 CHA without grabbing multiple Great Stat feats.

The deal statline for a human 16/8/14/14/8/15. Gift both STR and CHA. Grab 1 CHA on a level-up and the rest in STR. You end up with 24/8/14/14/8/18. Though that requires grabbing Eldritch Armor at level 30.

I would instead go orog; better statline and you get +1 AC from its racial bonus. 19/6/14/14/8/18.

Still, though, one of the most painful warlock builds to level.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by kinginyellow » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:20 am

Good Character wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:16 am
Still, though, one of the most painful warlock builds to level.
Can confirm, although I was also leveling this build when Haste was a feylock only spell.

Your AC is terrible and until level 5 everything is pain since you don't have your main source of damage (Hideous Blow).

And then you still have to suffer until you get something like a greensteel breastplate, which will carry you until you can make an addy full plate once you have eldritch armor.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Rico_scorpion » Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:45 am

While I'm a big fan of everything done on warlock so far (I dub that Kalopsia fanboyism). I find the update of eldritch armor very much a letdown. Personal taste and all, but forcing a two feats tax and 5 ability points in int on top of the 24 str (so if you went undying you need con on top of it and you always need charisma so...), just to get the bonus, a bonus that while good is not for everyone's taste... at that point i prefer simpler deals, you buy the feat, you get something, not "maybe you get something if on top of the feat requirements you have even more indirect requirements". So yeah, not a fan balance wise, not a fan execution wise (it lacks elegance in integration). It even force you to take two dead feats pre epic that only come online much further away. Not good design imo. I preferred the old one.

And in terms of hype, if by level 24 or 28 your ultimate epic feat is "expertise / imp expertise" (and tower shields), i find that a tad boring. Some would argue that it's strong, probably is, but feels dull to me.

Anyway that was my very biased take on that very specific point.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by MRFTW » Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:07 am

Still spell and a heavy armour class dip seems better imo. Doesn't get the full utility, sure, but you can plan around 20-22 base strength and get much more flexibility. 24 str on a class that mandates 18 cha is too much for most races.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Aeon Xen » Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:44 pm

Rico_scorpion wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:45 am
While I'm a big fan of everything done on warlock so far (I dub that Kalopsia fanboyism). I find the update of eldritch armor very much a letdown. Personal taste and all, but forcing a two feats tax and 5 ability points in int on top of the 24 str (so if you went undying you need con on top of it and you always need charisma so...), just to get the bonus, a bonus that while good is not for everyone's taste... at that point i prefer simpler deals, you buy the feat, you get something, not "maybe you get something if on top of the feat requirements you have even more indirect requirements". So yeah, not a fan balance wise, not a fan execution wise (it lacks elegance in integration). It even force you to take two dead feats pre epic that only come online much further away. Not good design imo. I preferred the old one.

And in terms of hype, if by level 24 or 28 your ultimate epic feat is "expertise / imp expertise" (and tower shields), i find that a tad boring. Some would argue that it's strong, probably is, but feels dull to me.

Anyway that was my very biased take on that very specific point.
This is clearly intended for builds that already use Expertise, not builds that would only take it for the fear. I like the change, but it still sucks that you don’t get it until the very late game.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Aeon Xen » Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:44 pm

Rico_scorpion wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:45 am
While I'm a big fan of everything done on warlock so far (I dub that Kalopsia fanboyism). I find the update of eldritch armor very much a letdown. Personal taste and all, but forcing a two feats tax and 5 ability points in int on top of the 24 str (so if you went undying you need con on top of it and you always need charisma so...), just to get the bonus, a bonus that while good is not for everyone's taste... at that point i prefer simpler deals, you buy the feat, you get something, not "maybe you get something if on top of the feat requirements you have even more indirect requirements". So yeah, not a fan balance wise, not a fan execution wise (it lacks elegance in integration). It even force you to take two dead feats pre epic that only come online much further away. Not good design imo. I preferred the old one.

And in terms of hype, if by level 24 or 28 your ultimate epic feat is "expertise / imp expertise" (and tower shields), i find that a tad boring. Some would argue that it's strong, probably is, but feels dull to me.

Anyway that was my very biased take on that very specific point.
This is clearly intended for builds that already use Expertise, not builds that would only take it for the feat.

I like the change, but it still sucks that you don’t get it until the very late game. I can get Hideous Blow on my expertise build at level 5 but I still have to grind another 20 levels before it will stop dropping expertise on cast.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by kinginyellow » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:17 am

The Expertise change for Eldritch Armor lets you actually front line, because otherwise as a STR build your AC is just terrible, even if you took extend spell and essentially have 100% haste uptime.

And while eldritch armor doesn't let you drop expertise when you do hideous blow, it does drop if you cast -any other spell-. And having expertise reactivate afterwards can be really awkward. Means you better have haste up because you're going to cast whatever you inteded to cast, then run away until you can reactivate expertise to start front lining again.

Thing is I still see this as a pretty strong feat, because yeah it needs a 2 feat investment pre epic and only comes online in epics, but for all intents and purposes you still have 100% hitchance in PVE with hideous blow and are just getting 10 free AC out of the deal (on top of the extra AC you might get from full plate).

I also don't really see the strength requirement as that big of a drawback. Large Shields can give you the same AC as a tower shield. This really is the "Do you get 4 dex modifier or not" feat, or "did you multiclass hexblade" feat. If you multiclassed hexblade, use the accursed chains. If you didn't, try to get 4 dex modifier from gear and wear elven chainmail. If you went all in on Hideous blow this feat's meant for you, because you're going to want to get as much strength as possible to meet that 15 max strength modifier cap on Greater Blow to double your blast damage in melee. at 24 Strength your modifier is 7. With gear it becomes 13. You still need 4 more points in strength to max out your damage from Greater Blow.

And in PVP, what I saw as threats on my hideous blow build were two-handed builds that hit 50 something AB and just pump out stupid ammounts of damage. At 60 AC with Concealment you might not get blown up in the first round, and you'll still be able to hit those builds even with something like mid 20s ab on a touch attack.

Overall, I do think that its better than old Eldritch Armor even though it has the exertise and stat requirements. (I've been able to make it work on a human but my HP at max level is gonna be like 390 on a front liner which isn't great). Unfortunately I don't know how it could really be improved outside of gear rebalancing, since this is just the STR thread all over again.

STR depends on gear for AC, Warlock does get some spells like Shadow Shield and Haste that gives it additional AC on top of that, but if you didn't go Dex the only way you're going to get AC is from gear, and the Devs don't seem to want to add more +4 or +5 ac gear without some really heavy restrictions, or being some sort of unpopular equipment choice (like the +7 ac hexblade breastplate)

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:49 am

Infernal lock life vs abyssal lock life is very poor.

Like flash lash vs lightning bolt? One gets high damage aoe option and other gets lower than eb damge single target option.

Yeah flamelash is incognito but so is lightning bolt and you can use it as opener before Party engages or have a stronger solo tool. Fiendlock kit is also aimed towards eldritch summon which does not mesh well with incognito.

Bring back scorching ray or a spell that scsles similar to lightning bolt please

A lvl 3 lock has very little going for solo survival
I got nothing to usedarkfire on as i dont melee nor have shelgarins persist blade like true flame.

Other party members most likely have magical weapons already

Darkness lasts 3 rounds so i only get one round to do something while constantly recasting darkness (doesnt work well) flame lash is nist doing 1d6 to 2d6 damage per round. No summon til lvl 5 and even then if i was abyssal id still get summon + 5d6 lightning bolt option or EB if single target.



Honestly i found soloing a true flame much much much better/easier lol.

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fun warlock builds here please nerf them though

Post by Tarkus the dog » Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:43 pm

I have been toying with the warlock class for a week or so now and I'd like to say a couple of things:

-Now that dealing non-magic damage is the best way to go most of the time, Unseelie Fey blasting for half positive/magic damage grants them quite an edge over other pacts ( discounting undying that does deal negative damage, but I assume NEP counters that so that's fine). Positive damage doesn't get countered by Elemental Resistance line of spells ( mainly Energy Shield ) and when you combine the 5% elemental DI gift and all the DI that different exotic races get plus the ability to heal allies with positive blasts, Greater Pact Unseelie Fey becomes an extremely worthy investment and easily the best damage type for a warlock. I'm unsure if this is intentional, but if so, I strongly recommend the following build:

Orog(19str ,7dex ,14con ,13 int, 18 cha) or Gold dwarf (15str+gift, 7dex, 16con, 13int, 16cha+gift). Both races should end up with 24 str and 16 con. Crucial pre-epic feats are imp expertise, blind-fight and toughness, in the epics: 3 epic toughness and armor skin. Epic Star pact, Greater Hideous Blow, Eldritch Mastery, Eldritch Armor. If you don't want to min-max ( because positive blast is simply the best ) you can grab Greater Eldritch Doom for the PvE, AoE, but I'm actually unsure how much damage this does. Which brings me to my next point:

-Is 540HP, 60-62 AC, 25 DI, 15/+5 DR character dealing average of 104 ( 208 per round ) essentially pure damage also intentional? Not counting all the other goodies that warlocks come with now like the dark undertow, empowered evards, perma haste mindfog spam and etc. The -5/-10 AB loss while using imp expertise doesn't translate the same way for melee touch attack. My numbers might be off but 29 touch AB is enough to reliably hit anyone not being a DEX based, and even DEX characters are susceptible to being hit ( unless they toggle imp expertise as well at which point they no longer threaten the warlock, and there are few DEX builds out there anyway that can threaten the warlock in the first place ). I'll say I don't find this anywhere as strong as some other things on Arelith, but on paper it looks pretty concerning. The build doesn't actually have that much power to finish anyone off ( courtesy of heal pot spam ), but a big tanky angry dog that's constantly in your face damaging you over and over again without you being able to do much unless you're a very specific build seems pretty concerning to me.

-20str/20dex for the average damage of 133 is still pretty much a thing, 18 cha requirement for Epic Pact didn't quite kill the """meme""". Step one, pick a Hobgoblin or a Wild elf, step two get 20 str, 20 dex and 18 cha ( my brain hurts and I suck at math but crunching the numbers should be easy ), don't take any INT and try to get at least 14 con. Wild Elf gets 6 INT but a free toughness feat and Hobgoblin gets 33 more skill points. Star pact again because DR and fear immunity is just that good ( and hex!!! ), Epic Eldritch Mastery and Greater Hideous Blows for the damage. I think you get an extra warlock feat as well, I'm unsure what to do that. Taking a fluff feat is fine I guess. Grab as many Epic Toughness feats as you humanly can and perhaps armor skin ( or STR/CHA/DEX epic feat if you're a point or two short off the 20/20/18 split ). I know it seems goofy but there's little else to take, 6d dice does hurts and you really don't want to be a 450 HP noodle. End HP should be somewhere around 500, no imp expertise and a very potato brain but really 4-5 skills is all you need to serve your function as a 266 per-round-blast-rat. It seems squishy on paper but I don't find 20 DI, 15/+5, 50ish AC, 500 HP that squishy in comparison to some other stuff out there, especially considering you have perma haste and can deal some funny damage. Again, I'm not sure if this is intentional, but it's certainly doable. And yeah, people won't take any points in INT if that means they can play a fun build ( by people I mean me and probably other players too after reading this please don't nuke my RPR to -20 ).

I hope this feedback helps some and I hope I haven't just helped unleash an army of star-worshiping one-shotting gremlins although the reason I'm mentioning all of this in the first place is because I'd prefer not to run into an enemy army of one-shotting star-worshiping gremlins or 60 ac, 25 DI orcs from hell. Which would be pretty funny if it happened anyway and this post gets ignored or trivialized in which case kudos to me for I have successfully sproinked myself.

Other than that the rework is actually pretty cool and if it wasn't for my undying resentment of playing casters I'd be playing a warlock right now ( probably neither of the builds mentioned above because one 15 dex dual wielder resting in my vault is more than I can handle rn ).

Also please buff the Abyssal Pact, it looks so unloved.

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