Some warlock feedback

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VibeKings
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Some warlock feedback

Post by VibeKings » Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:01 am

I like the new update, it's got a lot of flavour and a lot of diversity in it. I'm glad this exists, it is super aesthetic and really interesting. Props to Kalopsia for this huge project! With that said I'll dig into what I think of it, starting with the variety of pacts.

>Abyssal pact is probably the worst pact by a lot. Wild surges are not a fun mechanic or a strong mechanic, they're essentially the tax a wild mage has to pay so he can use -fate and give his whole party long-lasting Mestil's/instagib someone with Avascular/etc.. Looking at how Infernal just gets free damage by comparison feels depressing.

>Star pact is REALLY good. Really, really good. It gets so much, and everything it gets is really strong. It probably just has to straight up lose the Hex ability, since you can nerf somebody's saves & AB by 7, and then their AC by 3 more in just 2 spells and a free action.. all savelessly! That's not even getting into their (really useful!) barrier ability and the multiple things that it does, or how they get 2 free warlock feats. Infernal and Abyssal only get 1, and they trade in for getting pretty stripped-back bonuses otherwise; Star gets as much unique stuff as the other pacts, and those two free feats, neither of which are even lacklustre choices.

>Undying seems really clumsy. I don't know how to feel about it on the whole, but the CON requirement makes me scratch my head -- I'm not really sure what to do with this pact, and I can't tell if that's a better criticism of me or the pact. Otherwise, I think it should get the "life steal" blast ability probably earlier than its final incarnation, albeit obviously in a weaker form. Maybe it's intended to be multiclassed with Palemaster? But that seems like it'd be really tough, and further comes with "Sorc/PM" sorts of issues, so I'm not sure...

>Speaking of ability scores, the "STRlock" hideous blow/related feats seem to be kind of prohibitive, both prohibitively high on the STR requirements and prohibitively weaker than the regular blast option. I also think the idea is really close to encroaching on already muddy waters, where hexblade+BG are concerned; "evil magic melee man" is a very specific archetype with quite a few
different options, but by itself doesn't seem to really do anything different than hex/BG except be heavier on casting spells.

>Speaking of hexblades, the multiclass scaling both classes get seems weird and useless. I can't think of any build where I'd want to combine them for any reason. I don't hate it or think it's bad, it just seems like something nobody would use except for the most surreal gimmicks imaginable.

>Back to super strong saveless debuffs: Hell's Inferno is way too strong and needs a save on the -4 AB/damage component. I don't like that hexblades can do it, and at least they have to take a feat & pretty much have their whole class built around the one ability that does -4 (or more) AB. Warlocks just get it as a spell they can cast. The damage is fine without a save, but the debuff badly needs a save attached.

>Eldritch Spear is way too useful to the point where it feels like every warlock should just have it. I'd almost call it blindfight levels of mandatory. Maybe 20+ warlocks should have it, or something, I don't know. It just seems too good.

>By contrast, Eldritch Doom feels really underwhelming. The damage, even with maxed out Eldritch Mastery, is really low, comparable to a Fireball spell (average 37.5 on a 25 d3, average 35 on Fireball's 10d6). Which isn't very good. Nobody except low level TFs casts Fireball, and then they get Firebrand...

>GREATER Eldritch Spear is also ludicrously strong. The only warlock who can afford not to take it are feylocks. Every other warlock that doesn't have it is quite literally doing it wrong.

>GREATER Eldritch Doom again lags a hundred miles behind its sibling. A true flame hits level 10 and starts using Firebrand instead of Fireball. Warlocks, on the other hand... instead of somewhere between 15 to 25 d3, you can do somewhere between 15 to 25 d4. This is a decently sized difference, but it still sucks compared to literally ignoring concealment. I feel like Greater Doom should probably just be regular Doom instead of requiring 2 feats, and Spear needs a harsh look.

>Infernal, Night Hag, and Fathomless -- I don't have any qualms with these. I like them. They're cool and none of it feels egregious, even Fathomless's drown, which looks like a lot more damage than it really is.

>I'd say the same thing here about Feylock, but I'm keeping one eye on that heal it gets. I think the dev should keep his own eye on this, but I don't want to say I think it's too strong or too weak right now.

>Lastly, Infernal+Abyssal should probably just lose infinite darkness. It's a clumsy mechanic that trivialises a good deal of PVE content and should probably die in all incarnations, including TFs. I know the pet isn't quite as strong as it was before, since the CD is so much longer and the neg damage heal blast is gone, but it's still extremely strong in parties.

Edit: I forgot to talk about "multi pacts." Which is something I was initially really excited for, but you're so starved on class-feature-feats that I don't think it will ever be worth it; other options give you so much more, aside from overloaded pacts like Star -- which you should have just picked for your sole one anyway.

Edit 2: Piggybacking on that, multiclassing is bad for the same reason multi-pacting is bad. Every feat is so valuable that losing two feats from multiclassing is just never worth it, especially since you already have every skill you'd want from your base class and can't use div shield; otherwise, trying to staple WIS on this for a monk dip would be ... a really bad idea, to put it lightly!

Edit 3, and probably my last: Spent a while thinking about feylocks and I think the infinite haste might be too strong. Would strongly urge leaving it on the 3m CD similar to star/greater fey.

Edit 4 (It was not my last): More thoughts on feylock, and quicken/haste in general. Since Greater Eldritch Spear is so mandatory, the Epic Fey Pact component that gets faerie fire on hit is probably too strong; faerie fire should just be a warlock spell, and maybe a pact spell if you must but I don't know if I'd advise that, concealment is an important mechanic for keeping touch attacks manageable for people who aren't monks.

Like I said before with haste being too strong, I'm starting to think that pacts who do NOT get haste/3minutes feel left out in the cold, owing to the awkward engine limitation on Quicken Spell... and the fact it's a feat tax either way. This might be a wild idea, but maybe every pact should have haste on 3min CD as a pact spell, but nobody gets it without the CD.
Last edited by VibeKings on Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:04 am, edited 5 times in total.

Killer on the drive home
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Killer on the drive home » Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:23 am

Your commentary on Darkness seems very opinionated. It's a very kit completing spell that wouldn't ever get used if it wasn't on warlocks. It's also relevant in PvP. Yes, anything that forces you to use a round to buff is relevant. No, extremely few people are ever fullbuffed before PvP.

Other than that, good stuff. Great feedback post.
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by MRFTW » Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:48 am

Killer on the drive home wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:23 am
Darkness ... wouldn't ever get used if it wasn't on warlocks.
im sorry what

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by kinginyellow » Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:28 am

Abyssal and Infernal warlock get 2 free feats, though one of them has a requirement. They get Devil's Sight and the Greater Summoning.

I do agree that Starpact is probably one of the better pact choices though, and its the one I went for. It doesn't have prohibitive stat requirements like Undying does and gives a good spell selection + a good lategame effect on eldritch blast.

I don't think Abyssal is that bad though. Consider you only need Greater to get access to the Wild Magic Surges. Consider you have infinite spells to proc them off. Consider you get the 50% reduction of bad effects at warlock level 25. This lets you take 5 levels of something else (like say hexblade) to get charisma to saves.

On Hideous Blow though. The fact that its a touch attack makes it weird. Hideous blow is meant to give you your eldritch blast damage on your first hit in a round with a melee attack on top of the damage of that melee attack. Making it a spell like ability makes most divine might restrictions on epic pacts pointless since the melee blast doesn't use weapon damage. I do think its actually stronger than people give it credit for. Its -empowered- eldritch blast. Meaning, 15d6*1.5 on a full EB progressed character, and the greater version then adds your strenght modifider TIMES 1d6 on top of it. It will hurt a lot, although less than a dex dedicated blaster can hurt you for with their extra 10d6 blast damage if they take all the mastery feats.

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Scylon
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Scylon » Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:42 am

kinginyellow wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:28 am
I don't think Abyssal is that bad though. Consider you only need Greater to get access to the Wild Magic Surges. Consider you have infinite spells to proc them off. Consider you get the 50% reduction of bad effects at warlock level 25. This lets you take 5 levels of something else (like say hexblade) to get charisma to saves.
I could get behind that if not for the fact you need 28 levels now, as opposed to 25 to get access to epic summons. 28 seems a bit harsh for something that costs you 2 feats. hells, BG gets it for one, and at level 16. much smaller investment.

Also the feat Dark Invocation: Planar Gate is just awful. Its a watered down version of gate that last half as long. Hell, a scroll lasts longer and I can spam that. This needs to last at minimum 2 rounds per level, and maybe longer if you are all in in summoning.

Overall after a bit of tweaking etc I see these changes being mostly positive to the point of being awesome.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by kinginyellow » Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:45 am

Scylon wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:42 am

I could get behind that if not for the fact you need 28 levels now, as opposed to 25 to get access to epic summons. 28 seems a bit harsh for something that costs you 2 feats. hells, BG gets it for one, and at level 16. much smaller investment.

Also the feat Dark Invocation: Planar Gate is just awful. Its a watered down version of gate that last half as long. Hell, a scroll lasts longer and I can spam that. This needs to last at minimum 2 rounds per level, and maybe longer if you are all in in summoning.

Overall after a bit of tweaking etc I see these changes being mostly positive to the point of being awesome.
On the summoning front, I agree. But this means you can get the surges on a different main pact.

It really depends on your build, but personally I made a hideous blow build that -doesn't- need the plate effect (mostly because hexblade gets better class armor that also doesn't let you use divine shield, something that the pacts don't let you do already anyway)

It had 2 leftover feats, and the only good options were another pact. Greater Abyssal pact gives the best benefits for the 2 feat investment.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Farlius » Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:43 am

Greater Eldritch Spear

Prerequisite: Warlock 20, Eldritch Spear, Dexterity 20+
Specifics: The warlock gains the ability to cast long-range eldritch blasts that bypass concealment spells and effects.
This is too strong, it should be closer to blindfight instead of auto success.
See the Unseen

Prerequisite: Warlock, Greater Pact (Any)
Specifics: The warlock is able to perceive invisible creatures within his line of sight.
Permanent see invisibility? This is far too strong, they get the spell as a choice at 2, they don't need it permanently.
Devil's Sight

Prerequisite: Warlock, Pact (Any)
Specifics: The warlock's ability to see in complete darkness improves beyond that of regular darkvision, now able to pierce even the effects of magical darkness.
Same as See the Unseen, probably shouldn't have this, especially since they have Ultravision at 1.

Starpact getting no saving throw immediately on crushing despair instead of bonuses seems overtuned, as does their fear immunity. We don't need more things immune to an entire school of magic permanently, save bonuses, sure, immunity, No.


Perhaps their special passives should become actives, immunity on cooldown, see invis on cooldown, ultravision on cooldown, SR on cooldown, etc. Instead of it being up all the time it's a strategic element.

Nighthag getting SR 26 but then having SR 26 on the gear also seems an odd move, not sure how to address this aside the above mentioned active route.
The staff getting a sum of +2 Dex, +2 Cha to stats seems high. There are literally no other comparable staves, perhaps +1 Dex and +1 Cha instead?

Can we please have more recipes that use rogue stones? They feel relegated to kobolds.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Tyrantos » Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:12 am

I dont think Warlocks get Ultravision for free on level 1, It still has to be chosen. Perhaps certain pacts does it, but not all pacts. Also, All the features you point out? They can only be taken on Warlock bonus feats.
Devil's Sight

Prerequisite: Warlock, Pact (Any)
Specifics: The warlock's ability to see in complete darkness improves beyond that of regular darkvision, now able to pierce even the effects of magical darkness.
.

To get 20 dex you need to sacrifice other stats such as charisma or constitution, charisma which is very useful now that warlocks can cast up to level 8 spells, meanings as charisma caster they are a lot more viable now.

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Farlius
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Farlius » Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:08 am

Tyrantos wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:12 am
I dont think Warlocks get Ultravision for free on level 1, It still has to be chosen. Perhaps certain pacts does it, but not all pacts. Also, All the features you point out? They can only be taken on Warlock bonus feats.
Devil's Sight

Prerequisite: Warlock, Pact (Any)
Specifics: The warlock's ability to see in complete darkness improves beyond that of regular darkvision, now able to pierce even the effects of magical darkness.
.

To get 20 dex you need to sacrifice other stats such as charisma or constitution, charisma which is very useful now that warlocks can cast up to level 8 spells, meanings as charisma caster they are a lot more viable now.
Literally said the spell circles in my post, not that they get it for free.

Also, the feats I posted?
Only spear needs a stat.
Just because they can only be taken on a bonus feat does not mean they should exist/do what they do.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by a shrouded figure » Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:46 pm

So I was just playing around on PGCC:

It’s pretty fun!! I have never played a warlock and didn’t look at previous build strategies, but it felt surprisingly beginner friendly for being a ridiculously deep class. I think that warlocks will be incredibly strong in all facets.

Personally I didn’t build mine to summon, but it didn’t matter at all. Everything melted before my eldritch smacks- lol.

I think the hex synergy is a bit strange, it feels a lot like Barb Shaman where only a couple very specific things make any sense and it’s more flavor than mechanical.

I’ll echo that star seems to have a bit much, but again I know very little about warlocks. Undying seems weird that I have 20 con, but EDR doesn’t stack with my pact DR.

Blasts were doing quite a bit of damage, essentially a two APR gonne… pretty nice.

So nothing really specific, but a very fun class so far.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by magistrasa » Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:42 pm

Minor comment here, but it feels like an oversight that they get both disc and tumble. Just because they had access to both skills while they were a bard path doesn't mean it makes sense.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Dreams » Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:49 pm

Kalopsia, I love you more and more every day. Excited to try a Star Pact warlock someday.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Skarain » Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:40 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:42 pm
Minor comment here, but it feels like an oversight that they get both disc and tumble. Just because they had access to both skills while they were a bard path doesn't mean it makes sense.
I am curious, in which context does it not make sense? Why is one class allowed to have it but another not?

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by magistrasa » Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:50 pm

Skarain wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:40 pm
magistrasa wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:42 pm
Minor comment here, but it feels like an oversight that they get both disc and tumble. Just because they had access to both skills while they were a bard path doesn't mean it makes sense.
I am curious, in which context does it not make sense? Why is one class allowed to have it but another not?
That's a good question. Why should Warlock be allowed to have both, but not Hexblade, Ranger, Cleric, Rogue, Barbarian, Fighter - well, any class that isn't Monk?

To maybe clarify, I do mean both skills being accessible to Warlock. Maybe one makes sense for them to have, but I don't think it's a good idea for them to have both. It basically means that you can pureclass Warlock with basically no sacrifice to the build. The reason why I think that isn't ideal is because I feel like it's liable to cut down on build diversity.

Then again, a cursory look over the class features & progression makes me feel like it's an attractive multiclass option for other classes as well. Possibly too attractive, sure, but that fact opens up build diversity potential all by itself. So maybe I'm overthinking things.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Echohawk » Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:08 pm

I wanted to leave some feedback as well. Largely I wanted to focus on the QoL of leveling one of these characters, since while it's fun to play about on the PGCC there's still going to be the grind if you're working on something new. And I do have some concerns.

Unfortunately I'm not the best at numbers but I'm gonna try my best to detail things out, if folks have numbers that support or counter whatever I'm detailing, it's welcome.

First concern is some of the stat requirements.
24+ Cha (and a full 30 warlock, up from prior 25 required) 3 feats expended, one/two (greater 20+, free with infernal/abyssal) of them epic allows access to the epic/final tier of summon. A previous entitlement to the class is in my opinion a bit stat heavy and feat costly.

24+ Str Eldrich Armor (Melee based stat is understandable for melee build)
20+ Str G. Hideous Blow

20+ Dex Eldritch Mastery V (You would be spending feats 1-4 to get to this stage)
20+ Dex Gr. Eldritch Spear
24+ Dex Precision Blast

20+ Con (Epic) Undying Pact

24+ Cha Agonizing Blast
20+ Cha G. Eldritch Doom (AoE)

In any 30 level build set you get 7 attribute point expenditures after base point buy at character creation. As expected with these level of requirements you're going to be veering towards one direction or another. There's not a lot of room for combining everything you could hope to want. Con takes a far larger backseat and unless you're only focusing on Undying and perhaps one other stat, your health pool is scarily low. You could alternatively take on the heavy armor feats and try to be some kind of eldritch tank I'd wager, but that focuses more on your Str to achieve, leaving less room for Con to cushion the HP. You can focus to some extremes and mix this previous ranged with some melee abilities, I'm certain there's a few builds that will be enhanced by this. But in builds folks will largely have to focus on being eldritch blast specialists, or summon specialists.
All of this due to the previous entitlement (as in came with the class) to the class, the summon. It's a large step away from the prior playstyles and will certainly change how the class is viewed and handles.

Second up, summon feats and changes.
A caster without a summon is extremely vulnerable generally speaking. You also will have to wait until level 5 to take your first summon feat. Another critique I must bring to light is the new CD system for all of the summons. Doesn't matter if you call out a level 1 fledgling or the epic lass or the morass, everything is now linked to a hard 6 minute cooldown. If you're not using the summon, this wouldn't affect you, but if you're burning the feats needed to unlock and achieve the summons ranks the prior timers that gated how often you could summon different tiers are all linked together, and the buffer between having them and not is now the same as a Blackguard's (who only needed 16 levels and one feat to achieve the same).

The summon can no longer be healed (as far as I was reading, I might be wrong or missed something?) which makes it relatively vulnerable as well, and now when it pops you're in the lurch for a solid 6 minutes with your trousers down. I would probably simply suggest not having all the eldritch summons being linked to the hard 6 link and rolled back towards the prior tier vs time system. If need be those probably could also be extended from the few seconds to a bit longer to not be frivolous in casting. I just feel like that's a major thing to get looked at for overall quality of life on the warlock.

Next, leveling QoL.
The next major concern is hard to see until you have warlocks out in the wild. Previously the class would've been awarded a few set spells at a time in ascending order. It was predictable in that respect, and perhaps choice certainly gives the appearance of looking daunting on the first glance over.

But on a second pass, now the utility and versatility of many of the spells has been wiped and changed in favor of some new tools and tricks. Having access to choosing a single spell or changing them all on a level increase as the bard/sorc/ds do can allow for gradual progression and tactical shifts. But a key component of the prior iteration of the warlock was that all of the few allowed awarded spells were always infinite. With the changes comes a far smaller pool, and much like sampling a puddle it's gonna have some sour spots and questionable aftertaste.

Below would be the pacted (infinite) spell lists (Levels 2-10), keeping also in mind you cannot have access to more than about 1 additional one per level. Apart from Eldritch Blast, since you always have that to keep you warm at night, or cold.. elements are hard.

Key - Passive benefit, active tactic, damaging spell

Abyssal
Level 1: Darkness, Grease, Protection from alignment, Ultravision
Level 2: Bull's strength, Darkfire, Lightning bolt, See invisibility
Un. Fey
Level 1: Charm person or animal, Entangle (3 min CD), Expeditious retreat, Hold animal, Sleep
Level 2: Charm monster, Dominate animal, Eagle's splendor, Hold person
Night Hag
Level 1: Darkness, Ray of enfeeblement, Sleep, Ultravision
Level 2: Eagle's splendor, Hold person, Tasha's hideous laughter
Infernal
Level 1: Darkness, Grease, Protection from alignment, Ultravision
Level 2: Bull's strength, Darkfire, Scorching ray, See invisibility
Fathomless
Level 1: Doom, Grease, Resist elements, Scare
Level 2: Blindness/deafness, Bull's strength, See invisibility
Star
Level 1: Doom, Entropic shield, Ghostly visage, Mage armor, Ultravision
Level 2: Bear's endurance, Blindness/deafness, Cat's grace, See invisibility
Undying
Level 1: Ghostly visage, Mage armor, Ray of enfeeblement, Scare
Level 2: Bear's endurance, Ghoul touch, Stone bones


Grease and a few of the other spells no longer does damage as far as I'm aware now (not tested yet), darkness requires ultravision until you've invested in the correct feat to simply ignore darkness. Range of damage now relies heavily on prior listed feats, spear for distance, etc etc. The variety and utility of the warlock has certainly taken a major hit overall. Other damaging spells will be more encounter based and with fewer slots, so you'll run out of non-infinite spells faster than a wizard of your equivalent level, probably/possibly also sorcerer.

Combat will largely rely on if you can have a tanking hits character companion (who has to not mind that you're a warlock... hopefully?) And hoping your blast spell like feat doesn't take aggro (attention of the enemy) so they start ignoring guard and start making you into some flavor of paste.

For those that wanted a greater focus on the flavor and strength of your blast, then this is certainly the change and update to help fixate on it. But given NWN's limited NPC mechanics and their hyperfixation on spellcasters, this will not be a fun/easy thing to level. Certainly no where near it's previous standing, but that's comparing one playstyle to another at this point, and my purpose here was to identify where present changes were. Not gripe and moan for the prior iteration.

Finally just the skill points.
Base Int of 10 (not a stat otherwise needed by the warlock) has you landing as a pure 30 warlock at just shy of 200 skill points. Given that warlocks would need, to be relatively competent a spread of 30 spellcraft, 33 discipline, 33 concentration, 33 for a detect skill, (30 tumble for those who are stacking up AC), 33 bluff if you're going to find some way to avoid those pesky guardsmen.

For the sake of example, let's skip the AC and go with the above. You've just spent 162 of your 197 points. You are able to get one whole skill to 33 and have a leftover of 2, to go.. somewhere.

More to the point, now on top of any and all other stat requirements you're going to have to try to squeeze in 12 or more Int.

Hopefully something above will help kind of lay out how I've come to find the class. I wouldn't dare say it's bad, I refuse to pine over the past and I want to focus on the future. There comes the nagging drag along conversation of 'prior warlocks didn't build for ANYTHING like this'. Yes, I know, I absolutely know, and I'm not sure how that's going to be renegotiated in the future. But my hope is that this helps bring to light some of the details of the class, particularly from lower level points of view.
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Complex » Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:15 pm

Feylock's summon concerns me a bit. 46 AB (48 flanking), you can haste it for 5 APR (since your hastes are infinite), and it has a 10-20 crit range. Its damage output is really high, too, since it has 10-20x3 crits (and can hit for like 140 or so?). This enables a new fiendlock that is only held down by the summon's casting, but it also is stronger than ever before once that part is over. Feylock used to rely on people failing the DCs to secure kills. That kept it in check. It didn't have a lot of kill pressure, but it was definitely strong. Now it retains its old win condition, but it also has a pet WM to pressure its targets further.
Last edited by Complex on Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Drowboy » Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:00 pm

The high stat (or level) reqs on cool stuff (including stuff warlocks used to have) makes it a bit sour for me. I'm not a big fan of "pure class capstone" Pathfinder-style design anyway, though.

Maybe the 6th tier summon and anything else reqing 28 can instead be made dark invocations, or even just bonus feats you must use an epic warlock feat on, even if only so oldlocks can get some build parity for a while?
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Talvenlapsi » Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:33 pm

I am honestly terrified by the Invisibility that doesn't get broken by hostile actions. That seems like a nightmare where PvP will be concerned if someone doesn't have TrueSight/See Invis on. You can be destroyed by someone who is invisible, without ever seeing them once, a call for griefing to happen.

And maybe request;
Can we offer Fathomless to use Water Stream? Seems more thematically appropriate! I know it's not evil stream per say, buuu-uut~
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Wethrinea » Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:53 pm

I have only dipped my toes into the new Feylock, and seeing it gives a bonus to Animal Empathy, maybe make it a class skill for them?
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Drowboy » Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:55 pm

More summon thoughts:
Planar gate shares a cooldown with the summon lines anyway (six minutes) so it's not super great as an oh no button.

Also: Can the prereq for the 6th tier be changed to 25 warlock and Tier 5 known? I don't imagine it's going to be fun trying to go from 20-28 with the t5 summon for most people, and the class has basically no defense otherwise, especially now that you probably won't have the stats and feats spare to hit EDR in most cases.
Archnon wrote: I like the idea of slaves and slavery.

a shrouded figure
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by a shrouded figure » Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:58 pm

Now granted I’m an idiot, but 43 ab touch attacks at 39d6 is kinda fun lol

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Flower Power
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Flower Power » Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:16 pm

Talvenlapsi wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:33 pm
I am honestly terrified by the Invisibility that doesn't get broken by hostile actions. That seems like a nightmare where PvP will be concerned if someone doesn't have TrueSight/See Invis on. You can be destroyed by someone who is invisible, without ever seeing them once, a call for griefing to happen.
To be fair, if a player hits epic-levels and doesn't carry around some means of producing See Invis. (which can be generated through wands, scrolls, potions, or a variety of items that give uses/day and aren't class-locked), then that's mostly on them. See Invis is so easy to get your hands on, that there's almost no excuse for not being able to pop it on demand once your character is established.

It's also got a 5-round duration, 10 tops if they take GSF Illusion, so it's not like they're going to be able to lurk in perma-invis behind their buddy to gank you. Particularly not since they're obligated by the server rules to participate in the pre-battle RP if they want to be part of the PvP.
what would fred rogers do?

xanrael
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by xanrael » Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:12 pm

Flower Power wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:16 pm
It's also got a 5-round duration, 10 tops if they take GSF Illusion, so it's not like they're going to be able to lurk in perma-invis behind their buddy to gank you. Particularly not since they're obligated by the server rules to participate in the pre-battle RP if they want to be part of the PvP.
This was discussed a month ago:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=34378&p=270213&hil ... es#p269793

As far as the ability goes I'm of the opinion that as long as it isn't implemented to force unavoidable flat-footing it isn't going to be a game changer against opponents who are attentive.

fading
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by fading » Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:16 pm

Talvenlapsi wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:33 pm
And maybe request;
Can we offer Fathomless to use Water Stream? Seems more thematically appropriate! I know it's not evil stream per say, buuu-uut~
While this seems cool, I don't know how well this would work since elemental summons kinda jump from rank 1 to 7? A huge water elemental at level 8 would be very powerful.

That said, I do vibe with this, and if there was any way to give them water elementals or something water related as summons, that'd be sweet. But I don't see how you'd go about this? I assume right now it's devil/yugoloth/demon based on your alignment, which isn't very fitting.

Joke suggestion: Keep the summons as is, but make them /look/ like water elementals for the aesthetics!

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kinginyellow
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by kinginyellow » Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:59 pm

fading wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:16 pm
Talvenlapsi wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:33 pm
And maybe request;
Can we offer Fathomless to use Water Stream? Seems more thematically appropriate! I know it's not evil stream per say, buuu-uut~
While this seems cool, I don't know how well this would work since elemental summons kinda jump from rank 1 to 7? A huge water elemental at level 8 would be very powerful.

That said, I do vibe with this, and if there was any way to give them water elementals or something water related as summons, that'd be sweet. But I don't see how you'd go about this? I assume right now it's devil/yugoloth/demon based on your alignment, which isn't very fitting.

Joke suggestion: Keep the summons as is, but make them /look/ like water elementals for the aesthetics!
Aboleth summons with their psionic mind destroyer gaze attacks.

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