Some warlock feedback

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Scylon
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Scylon » Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:38 pm

godhand- wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:39 am
AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:56 am
you cannot.
interesting. haste works with extendo but not chain does not with empower. I assumed they both would have worked.
its basically anything level 6 and down can be infa cast.

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Flower Power
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Flower Power » Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:51 am

The Feylock Epic Blast effect needed a nerf, but I think this was a bit much.

50% Attacker Miss Chance is basically a non-existent benefit: Blindfight removes all Attacker Miss Chance, and if you show me a nonspellcaster build that doesn't have Blindfight, then I'll show you a bad build. A bonus that's negated completely by a feat that's almost universally taken isn't really much of a bonus at all.
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Alyxnia
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Alyxnia » Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:55 am

Flower Power wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:51 am
The Feylock Epic Blast effect needed a nerf, but I think this was a bit much.

50% Attacker Miss Chance is basically a non-existent benefit: Blindfight removes all Attacker Miss Chance, and if you show me a nonspellcaster build that doesn't have Blindfight, then I'll show you a bad build. A bonus that's negated completely by a feat that's almost universally taken isn't really much of a bonus at all.
I dont know why it needed a nerf at all, beyond the fact that people who play stealth AA builds are mad that they no longer are on top of the meta
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Nitro » Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:39 am

a shrouded figure wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:45 pm
[Edited to cut back on sarcasm]
If this is the post with less sarcasm I struggle to imagine just how condescendingly sarcastic the previous edit was. Seriously though, that's not a nice or constructive way to deliver feedback, it's just snarky and mean.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Kalopsia » Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:37 am

Flower Power wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:51 am
The Feylock Epic Blast effect needed a nerf, but I think this was a bit much.

50% Attacker Miss Chance is basically a non-existent benefit: Blindfight removes all Attacker Miss Chance, and if you show me a nonspellcaster build that doesn't have Blindfight, then I'll show you a bad build. A bonus that's negated completely by a feat that's almost universally taken isn't really much of a bonus at all.
I've done some testing with this before actually committing to the change. I had a creature with Blind Fight attack me and gave it 100% miss chance. If Blind Fight worked as described on NWNwiki, the creature would've hit my test character all the time, but instead it missed 100% of the time.

So miss chance isn't negated by Blind Fight, it's squared, making the epic blast effect essentially a 50% concealment boost for all of the feylock's allies when attacked by the blast target.

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Kaeldre
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Kaeldre » Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:07 am

Kalopsia wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:37 am
Flower Power wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:51 am
The Feylock Epic Blast effect needed a nerf, but I think this was a bit much.

50% Attacker Miss Chance is basically a non-existent benefit: Blindfight removes all Attacker Miss Chance, and if you show me a nonspellcaster build that doesn't have Blindfight, then I'll show you a bad build. A bonus that's negated completely by a feat that's almost universally taken isn't really much of a bonus at all.
I've done some testing with this before actually committing to the change. I had a creature with Blind Fight attack me and gave it 100% miss chance. If Blind Fight worked as described on NWNwiki, the creature would've hit my test character all the time, but instead it missed 100% of the time.

So miss chance isn't negated by Blind Fight, it's squared, making the epic blast effect essentially a 50% concealment boost for all of the feylock's allies when attacked by the blast target.
And against targets with blind fight that would make it 25%. In essence, its a concealment effect you can't remove compared to sources of concealment like improved invisibility and displacement?
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Itikar
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Itikar » Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:04 am

Now I know why my ab seemed weird today.

Seeing the update written down, now epic eldritch mastery outclasses agonizing blast quite a bit, since 6d6 is on average more than the 13-14-15 modifier granted by 24+ charisma.

Also, how do the new masteries affect Eldritch Doom? Because if Epic Mastery adds 6d4, it's still comparable to agonizing blast even for that.

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kinginyellow
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by kinginyellow » Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:28 pm

I saw the changes to the Warlock Full Plate and the Eldritch Armor feats and I still don't think its worth going for if you're making a hideous blow STR lock.

You can lose 1d6 blast damage and 2 caster levels, and take hexblade levels to get cha to saves without needing to have 24+ charisma and an epic feat, and get 2 more AC than if you were wearing the warlock full plate, since the only restriction the Accursed chains have (no divine shield) is already applied to warlocks with an epic pact.

Or you could get full blast damage progression, use an epic feat on Eldritch Armor, and another on whatever else you want (not much you can qualify for as a STR lock besides hideous blows and eldritch armor), end up with bad saves (since you're not gonna have 24 charisma to take Dark Blessing) and lose 2 AC from not multiclassing into Hexblade.

We're still figuring out how to build Warlock though, so its not even like the build I'm describing is optimal. Maybe someone's figured out a way to build STR lock where taking Eldritch Armor is worth it, but I just can't see it, still.

Eyeliner
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Eyeliner » Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:37 pm

Eldrich Armor is mostly doable on like, a Gold Dwarf or Orog that trades dex for STR or CON. I don't know about human cause I never play humans:)

You do have to take hexblade as 24 charisma isn't an option but the classes synergize so that's obviously the intent.

The stat spread even on those advantageous races is rough. You want 18 charisma to have all the spells. You need 24 strength. You can probably skate with 10 or 12 intelligence as expertise doesn't work with hideous blow. Here's the kicker though, you need that constitution more than any other warlock because you're blasting in melee range if you're STR based and need a big HP pool and EDR feats because you're a sitting duck.

I've been playing with it on a salvaged hexblade, now hex/warlock as well as some fresh builds and there's potential but I wish the EA strength requirement was lower as I think it's otherwise an extremely niche build. Hideous blow is also really clunky unfortunately, I can get the hang of ranged blasts but touching the hideous icon then clicking the opponent over and over and over in melee vs multiple enemies is tough with NWN's janky hitboxes. Seems really easy to waste a round accidentally attacking with your weapon when you're in close combat too. Maybe I'll get used to it but it's not as fun as I thought it would be.

Anyway, point is lowering the STR requirement of EA seems necessary to make it more playable. I suppose hideous blow is a whole different discussion, I'm kinda holding out that it will be tweaked before I play it seriously.

(While I'm discussing this- does the hexblade's curse of life stack with warlock damage resistance and does it scale with warlock synergy?)

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Farlius
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Farlius » Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:01 pm

I feel like if the blast shapes were made contrips that require the feats to use, and could only be quickened, alot of the weirdness of how quicken is applied, and also how hideous blow is said to wack out, would go away.

Also Eldritch armor feat should probably be 20-22 str to allow a bit more wiggle room with int/cha/con.
Would also make it more of a choice between hb curse of life (3% di) + cha to saves + 14 ac armor vs 5% di + stat wiggle room + damage + 2 less AC

Eyeliner
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Eyeliner » Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:38 am

One more thing.. Between the weak blast and lack of summons I think warlocks may be a little too squishy at level 3. They pick up a lot of power quickly so I'm not saying they're inherently weak but considering they may be trying not to show they're warlocks It might be nice to give them something like a customized very low level outsider summon spell, like a weak imp or mephit or something they could use to get through levels 3 and 4 if they're laying low.

Even possibly the persistent blade as a level 1 spell, which would also allow them to try and pass as true flames for a little while.

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Farlius
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Farlius » Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:30 am

Eyeliner wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:38 am
One more thing.. Between the weak blast and lack of summons I think warlocks may be a little too squishy at level 3. They pick up a lot of power quickly so I'm not saying they're inherently weak but considering they may be trying not to show they're warlocks It might be nice to give them something like a customized very low level outsider summon spell, like a weak imp or mephit or something they could use to get through levels 3 and 4 if they're laying low.

Even possibly the persistent blade as a level 1 spell, which would also allow them to try and pass as true flames for a little while.
This can be fixed by moving blast progress from 2,4,6,8...28,30 to 1,3,5,7...27,29.
Same 15d6 for a 30 dedication, gives them a 2d6 blast at 3 which will help alot.
The main complaint I've been hearing is just how slow the first 3-6 levels are killing level appropriate mobs.

Wethrinea
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Wethrinea » Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:47 am

Giving them their first spell at level 1 would also help, in that they could then have GSF: conjuration at level 3, and cast a usable summon from Summon I scrolls.
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jomonog
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by jomonog » Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:34 am

My only suggestion is to move the first pact to level 2 as I think otherwise alot of existing builds will be broken on migration. It will also save having to code migration to automatically select the most appropriate pact (which I think will likely cause lots of rebuild requests if people dont like the pact that gets auto selected for them).

Also with the first pact currently at level 1 if you make a new character that has gifts and your pre-gift stats dont qualify you for the pact then you cant take the pact at level 1 on creation even though you should be able to (i.e 14 charisma pre-gifts wont let you take unseelie pact even though after gifts you will have 16 charisma).

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Tyrantos
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Tyrantos » Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:13 pm

I do belive it might be intentional that you have to pick your pact at the start, Without any gifts!

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Curve » Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:48 pm

All warlocks can cast haste now. I don’t understand why. They get access to UMD for wands, or can use potions.

Can someone tell me the reasoning behind this?

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by xanrael » Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:23 pm

So... night hag pact warlocks can effectively reset the rest for their friends allowing daily abilities (and vancian spellcasting) to be used as often as one wants?

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by ltlukoziuz » Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:39 pm

xanrael wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:23 pm
So... night hag pact warlocks can effectively reset the rest for their friends allowing daily abilities (and vancian spellcasting) to be used as often as one wants?
Feels better than alcoholism for sure


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MRFTW
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by MRFTW » Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:43 pm

Curve wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:48 pm
All warlocks can cast haste now. I don’t understand why. They get access to UMD for wands, or can use potions.

Can someone tell me the reasoning behind this?
Interested in a reason, too.

Giving feylock's top cookie to every warlock pact is a bit meh, really.

At least -relevel is still a thing for those that didn't take their pact at level 1, I guess.

Tyrantos wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:13 pm
I do belive it might be intentional that you have to pick your pact at the start, Without any gifts!
Bearing in mind that lots of subraces get different stats from their base race (and also have to be selected before pacts), I'm not so sure. For undying pact, by that reasoning, troglodyte warlocks have a minimum 18 CON (16 for pact, +2 from subrace applied after), while most other races only need 16.

This is of particular concern for feylocks, who quite often would like to start with 15 CHA, as 15 + gift + levels gives the 24 CHA breakpoint for epic stuff. Realistically feylocks fish for 1s primarily, so 17 starting CHA is of dubious value, given how much they need other stats, too.

Itikar
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Itikar » Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:29 pm

How much damage do the new masteries add to Eldritch Doom?

2d3 (2d4 for Greater Doom), or the same amount of dice they add to the normal blast, but lowered to d3 and d4 respectively?
Curve wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:48 pm
All warlocks can cast haste now. I don’t understand why. They get access to UMD for wands, or can use potions.

Can someone tell me the reasoning behind this?
Frankly speaking, Feylock seemed overtuned, among other things because of this, that put him a cut above the other warlock and awarded it de facto an extra feat, as he could do without Quicken Spell. Feylock still can cast Haste on himself with no cooldown, and can keep it up on TWO minions with Extend Spell. Feylock still has a better Haste than all other Pacts, it's just that the gap is smaller now. This is merely my observation of course, I would be curious to hear the developers' reasoning behind this as well, but personally I like the change.

Also, on the level 1 pre-requisites. Due to how gifts work, I think it would be nicer to lower them slightly, even just to 15, nothing crazy. It really messes up plans, in my experiments. Moreover, also having level 1 spells at level 1 would allow humans to spend their extra feat a bit more freely. Right now the best options a human warlock has at level 1 are toughness or luck of heroes, with stuff like expertise and crafting feats as possible options that are really hard to marry permanently.

As last addendum, I am not really sure how the Water stream is supposed to work on Fathomless, since in my tests all their summons called outsiders. So, how is a Fathomless warlock supposed to employ the stream it gets?

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:12 pm

Several people are asking what is the reason warlocks get Haste in their spellbook, and to them I ask - why not? Is there any arcane spellbook in this game without Haste? Even some divine casters have it. It's one of the most basic and good buffs in this game. It's also a big QoL boon to people with limited time to play who sometimes need to cover distances to get to their RP or whatever. I'm not going to be extreme and say every class in the game should have a spellbook with Haste obviously, but warlocks - arcane lvl 8th caster - can have it, and be balanced around the fact they have it, so I really dont see a problem there, only upsides.
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by MRFTW » Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:36 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:12 pm
Several people are asking what is the reason warlocks get Haste in their spellbook, and to them I ask - why not?
They already got haste in their spellbook. This has been given as a pact spell with a greater pact, ie it doesn't consume a spell slot when used (3 min cd).

Haste limitations are important for holding back inficasting evokers, like abyssal/infernal locks and true flames. The reason I asked "why?" is because they could already extended self haste about 10 times per day as well as haste 10 times per day. But that mattered a lot because those were important slots not to run out of.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Curve » Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:42 pm

1) Power does not exist in a bubble. Giving Warlocks something that typically is exclusive to wizards/clerics lessens wizards and clerics.

2) Action economy in PvP. A two minute casting is better than a one minute wand or potion.

I also don't think people being able to run faster should be part of the conversation. If our characters move to slowly to facilitate RP then up everyone's movement speed.

edit* and what was said above

Itikar
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Itikar » Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:51 pm

Curve wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:42 pm
1) Power does not exist in a bubble. Giving Warlocks something that typically is exclusive to wizards/clerics lessens wizards and clerics
Cleric used to get Haste only through Domains, it's hardly an exclusive of the class, as bards already had it by default in vanilla, unlike cleric. While extended Mass Haste remains an exclusive of wizards for the most part. Clerics should be already happy to have Haste by default in their spellbook, while wizards already have their edge for party setups.
I also don't think people being able to run faster should be part of the conversation. If our characters move to slowly to facilitate RP then up everyone's movement speed.
I don't find your argument particularly convincing at all. I am not bothered by this point either way, but I see no reason why it should not be part of the conversation if to somebody this aspect is important. It has reason to be there like any other argument, from my point of view. And I doubt these people will change idea because you simply think otherwise.

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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Killer on the drive home » Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:34 pm

Moving and rping is literally harder on anyone's brain. The idea is to get to the goal point and start rping with the comfort of being able to focus on typing and not moving.
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