Some warlock feedback

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Kaeldre
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Kaeldre » Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:02 pm

A melee touch attack at 29 will not reliably hit people who are above 60 ac (in a best case scneario), so while your damage output is impressive, you are essentially a weaponmaster who does less damage, less reliably. In return, you get an okay ac score, spells and are no longered countered by palemasters. I'd still choose the weaponmaster, but it is not a bad deal.
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malcolm_mountainslayer
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:35 am

Also on the whole infernal vs abyssal

Why such long cooldown on delayed cfireball when chain lightning has no friendly fire? If you want to prevent stacked delayed fireballs, just give 30 to 60 seconds cooldown, not whole 3 minutes. Flamelash vs lightning bolt is pretty bad, so is 3 min cooldown delayed fireball vs no limit chain lightning.

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kinginyellow
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by kinginyellow » Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:32 am

It was perfect, and then you had to go and reduce blast damage by 10d6 while IE is up.

Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

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xrippling pepression
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by xrippling pepression » Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:47 pm

I want to preface this post by saying that I believe this rework is an incredible thing and that I genuinely appreciate all of the work that was put into it. The class is very thematic, thought out and a general improvement on its latest iteration.

My feedback is fairly simple, and it involves some Unseelie Pact shenanigans. I've been playing one for a bit, and I think I have a good handle on what's going on to make some assessments, but others could feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I don't really have much to say on the other pacts, as I have not played them and don't feel I have much to contribute on that discussion until I experience them.

First, I would like to address the Summons. One glaring issue I found is that some of the Summons cast Freeze as a spell, but have Cold Damage on their melee attacks. This is problematic, considering Freeze grants Cold Immunity - the Summons are cancelling out their own damage with a spell that does very little damage. It's a bit counter-intuitive. Either Freeze should change or removed from their rotation, or they should be given Fire Damage to their melee attacks to take advantage of Freeze.

Secondly, the Unseelie Summons are... not good. Comparatively to the other flavors of Planar Summons, and Summon Creature, they do not compete. The Yeth Hound, the first summon you get at level 5, is worse than Summon Creature 3 (which GSF: Conj casters get at level 3) by quite a bit. The summons from 1-4 seem to not know which tier they belong to. The Quickling has very little AC and HP, sure, and its stats aren't impressive, but it has 4 attacks a round. That's huge at that level. The Winterling possesses the issue I mentioned above, with the Freeze spell, and has 3 attacks and about as much AC as the Quickling. After that, the Lunar Ravager comes in at level 17 with good damage equivalent to an equal level Fighter, and decent AC... but it has 7 BAB, thus, only 2 attacks per round. A henchman you can hire at level 10 reliably, has the same range of AB, more damage, and 4 attacks per round.

In the scope of things, these summons are downgrades as you progress, besides the Yeth Hound into Quickling. The Yeth Hound can barely do Sewer Rats, while the Quickling shreds the Forest of Despair. The Winterling cannot handle its like-level challenges, and the Lunar Ravager can do level 17 content, but it is very slow and can sometimes lead to a war of attrition that sees it losing, considering it is equivalent a fighter with no expertise and only 2 attacks per round. I believe that these 4 summons need some changing to make it so they fit their level ranges better.

As well, from a lore standpoint, the Frostwind Virago is a CR 16 creature while a Verdant Prince is CR 12. Something to note, and while I don't recommend outright swapping them in order, I just found it strange that the Virago was lesser.

Thank you for reading.
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Naked Zebra
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Naked Zebra » Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:32 am

I have to correct you on the yeth hound.


I have a warlock with the yeth hound summon on the surface currently (Without conj foci) and he cleared the sewers, including the sewer rat gang effortlessly. I didn't even need to cast any spells. The only problem was the sewer rat gang leader but that wasn't really too much of a big deal.

All I did was give it mage armor, which isn't even necessary because it has Damage Reduction which the creatures of the sewers can barely bypass. It just wrecked the spawns there. ( I am also pretty sure the stats displayed are wrong, it says something like 11 ab and in my case it attacked with KD at like 18 AB, also it feels like it has more than 1 Attack per round, I do not have a screenshot but I can test it further)

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Farlius
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Farlius » Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:52 am

The issue is while yes it did the sewers that same summon is expected to do the level 3-7 range. Not just the level 3 area. Other casters get an improved option at 5, 7, 9 etc or 4, 6, 8. Which are notably more appropriate to said range difficulty.

That isn't to say warlocks should get special case progression. But it may be worth giving them summon creature 1-4
Then it's a choice of summon for free on cooldown vs summon with slots and be less conspicuous at low levels outside blasts.
Further, this would allow non-conj, non-summon types to reach greater pact and some of what will make them more viable easier.

Naked Zebra
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Naked Zebra » Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:58 pm

The yeth hound isn't the problem, if anything It's the 6 Minute cooldown. I Leveled to Lvl 8 without any Problems. I played only solo, except for one run which I didn't have a writ for. Also i don't think the summon is meant to be soloing everything, you still have the eldritch blast and other spells to back it up.

My warlock is pretty much naked except for some magical items i got from those random Bosses.

Also you can Pick up summon undead on the way.

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Farlius
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Farlius » Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:55 pm

Cooldown and giveaway vs Slot usage vs slot usage and evil.
If it's easy then giving them short term alternatives doesn't matter, it's just that, an alternative.

Tier 4 even with conj only summons the bear which isn't going to be outlandishly strong at level 8. Especially compared with the quickling dr, effectively haste and imp invis and sr.

Also 1-4 is because a level 3 with rings of lore can easily use the scrolls anyway for summon 3.

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xrippling pepression
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by xrippling pepression » Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:22 pm

Naked Zebra wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:32 am
I have to correct you on the yeth hound.


I have a warlock with the yeth hound summon on the surface currently (Without conj foci) and he cleared the sewers, including the sewer rat gang effortlessly. I didn't even need to cast any spells. The only problem was the sewer rat gang leader but that wasn't really too much of a big deal.

All I did was give it mage armor, which isn't even necessary because it has Damage Reduction which the creatures of the sewers can barely bypass. It just wrecked the spawns there. ( I am also pretty sure the stats displayed are wrong, it says something like 11 ab and in my case it attacked with KD at like 18 AB, also it feels like it has more than 1 Attack per round, I do not have a screenshot but I can test it further)

I'm surprised that with 22 AC (including the Mage Armor) and 46 HP it managed to clear anything at all. This seems unlikely.

As was said, the Yeth Hound is expected to take you to level 8 (not including), so that's a strange ask from what is effectively an Expertiseless level 3 Barbarian.

This also doesn't change the fact that it is worse than the Summon Creature of its level by a large margin, and as Farlius mentions, the insane discrepancy between summons and their progression.
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Skeletor
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Skeletor » Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:10 pm

I'm questioning the need for dexterity in greater and epic eldritch mastery feats.
My reasoning is this: In order to get it, you need to have an eldritch shape feat, be it Hideous Blow, Eldritch Doom, or Eldritch Spear.

All of these have their own stat requirement, be it Strenth, Charisma, or Dex.
So why make Dex a requirement on all 3 paths? I feel it prohibits you from specializing in a single path.
On top of that, the pacts themselves have stat requirements, and spells require charisma.

It's especially hindering with the Eldritch Doom path, one that people might take to avoid getting any dex at all otherwise since Eldritch doom has no touch attack. Also, with hideous blow, it forces you to take a humongous amount of dex if you wish to go that way and get greater hideous blow (20 dex +20 strength) and then have to pursue 18 charisma on top if you want to cast circle 8 spells.

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Kaeldre
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Kaeldre » Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:22 pm

I believe that is exactly the point. The higher tiers of eldritch mastery is set behind a dexterity requirement to make sure people have to make choices and sacrifices. That's what building a warlock is all about. Pick your niche and stick to it.
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Nitro
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Nitro » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:04 pm

Yeah, it seems pretty healthy that warlocks have to specialize one way or another in order to get good at one specific part oftheir kit rather than being able to be good at everything.

That said, presently I feel like DEX based blaster warlocks are more worthwhile than CHA based summoners. The damage difference is significant and several of the pacts have workarounds that reduce the need for a summon (increased durability, undead, dominates).

Archnon
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Archnon » Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:29 pm

I know the powers that be are aware of this but it would be nice to be able to use other summons than the base pact summons.

It seems eldritch summon limits you to your pacts. I'm sure this was intentional but there are lots of reasons characters may want t invest in learning other streams for the purposes of summoning. Most notably as cover ("look at my celestial, I'm not evil").

Perhaps we could open it up with a slightly increased failure chance for pacted warlocks?

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Skeletor
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Skeletor » Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:03 pm

Mixing Fathomless and Night Hag pacts cause a sleep effect and a drown effect that adds damage. The damage immediately awakens the target from the sleep effect, reducing the utility a lot.
Shouldn't the sleep be applied last, after the damage?

Kalopsia
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Kalopsia » Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:47 pm

Skeletor wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:03 pm
Mixing Fathomless and Night Hag pacts cause a sleep effect and a drown effect that adds damage. The damage immediately awakens the target from the sleep effect, reducing the utility a lot.
Shouldn't the sleep be applied last, after the damage?
The small, guaranteed Fathomless drown damage is applied after a short delay, so changing this unfortunately isn't as simple as reordering both code sections.

Duchess Says
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Duchess Says » Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:44 am

I don't know if this was mentioned before but does Displacement need to be a level 4 spell for some infinicast pact spell balancing reason or something? Because unless I'm mistaken it does the same thing as Improved Invisibility but without invisibility so... it's a worse spell than another of the same level.

If it were level 3 that could give warlocks who really want something else at level 4 the option of taking both invisibility and displacement to get the same result (in a more irritating way, old feylock style). Just had to ask about it.

Nitro
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Nitro » Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:33 pm

Duchess Says wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:44 am
I don't know if this was mentioned before but does Displacement need to be a level 4 spell for some infinicast pact spell balancing reason or something? Because unless I'm mistaken it does the same thing as Improved Invisibility but without invisibility so... it's a worse spell than another of the same level.

If it were level 3 that could give warlocks who really want something else at level 4 the option of taking both invisibility and displacement to get the same result (in a more irritating way, old feylock style). Just had to ask about it.
Displacement is better than improved invisibility because it cannot be removed with purge invisibility.

Vangrave
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Vangrave » Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:38 pm

Rico_scorpion wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:41 pm
Not sure if intended or not, but the "Blasphemy scroll" required for the warlock staff is really a pain. Like, only a cleric with scribe scroll can scribe it (or a warlock, but unsure why a warlock would take scribe scroll), so you're already looking for that, then there's no chance to find it in a shop as demand for it is non-existant, and then that cleric needs to be willing to actually scribe it for you (that much harder if you're on surface). Add to it the fact that if you ask the wrong person you actually outed yourself as a baddie. And finally, but I might be wrong, I don't remember even seeing it in the loot matrix.

Given that a certain NPC in a certain extraplanar dark place sells high level necromancy spells, maybe Blapshemy could be added to the list of sold scrolls there? Alternatively removing or changing the nature of the required scroll would go a long way.

Cheers.
Probably a decent number of undying locks will take scribe scroll.

Cleric-wise, WoF scrolls sell really well, so I’m sure there are also a decent number of potential scribers. Probably best to ask in the Underdark, though.

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Waldo52
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Waldo52 » Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:04 pm

I know this is a feedback thread and not a build thread but I'm wondering what the major builds are looking like right now (if there are any besides straight 30 lock levels or divine dip)

Naked Zebra
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Naked Zebra » Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:55 pm

I recently unlocked the tier 3 Unseely summon and I hate it. It seems very bad from the get go and it randomly stops attacking, refusing to do anything. Wether I control it or not.


The Quickling also has improved two weapon fighting and it doesn't show in the stats screen. But I am very sure I saw the second attack on the offhand already. (Seems kind of strange anyway that it is supposed to have one attack on the mainhand and two with the offhand)

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ReverentBlade
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by ReverentBlade » Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:24 pm

I'm trying to build a pure, high charisma caster warlock. I feel like I'm always starved for just one...more...warlock feat, to have at least a halfway decent eldritch blast to poke things from behind the summon. Is there any reason some of the basic warlock feats that are prerequisites can't be taken as general feats?

It would also be nice if Warlocks got at least some spellcasting ability at first level so you can take a Spell Focus or metamagic feat at first level so you can be more caster/support.

MRFTW
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by MRFTW » Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:58 am

ReverentBlade wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:24 pm
It would also be nice if Warlocks got at least some spellcasting ability at first level so you can take a Spell Focus or metamagic feat at first level so you can be more caster/support.
I played a gnome warlock as they are able to take GSF illusion at 1st level. I can see that blind fight and crafting feats (for utility and teaching T3 dweomercrafting) look like the obvious picks, but for casters, blind fight isn't always useful so if you're not planning to take it, 1st level feats are pretty limited.

Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with gnomes being the best race, though! ❤

Gazfrost
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Gazfrost » Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:42 am

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:35 am
Also on the whole infernal vs abyssal

Why such long cooldown on delayed cfireball when chain lightning has no friendly fire? If you want to prevent stacked delayed fireballs, just give 30 to 60 seconds cooldown, not whole 3 minutes. Flamelash vs lightning bolt is pretty bad, so is 3 min cooldown delayed fireball vs no limit chain lightning.
Did you take in account that Abysmal has a Wild Surge chance with every spell and Eldritch blast?
I am sure that's why they have the friendly fire and no cooldown chain lightning, it's risky to spam it.

Valrean
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Valrean » Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:58 pm

I am going to preface this with the following: I have not played a Warlock yet on the live servers, only on the Test server.

But the biggest issue with the Warlocks right now is that they were basically gutted in the form of all their passives (or most of them) being removed and put into the game as a feat.

I understand the need for feats to improve your summons or your blasts, but there are certain things that are a Class feature that should be a passive gained through levels, not through feats.

in 30 levels you get 3 Feats which are: Uncanny dodge 1, Eldritch Carapace 1&2.

Deceive Item for one is supposed to be a passive feat that you get at level 4 yet here on Arelith you have to take it as a Bonus Warlock feat which, as I mentioned before, are too important to use on something like that.

None of the other classes have to do this, they get most things handed to them as they become stronger in that class just like in PnP.

My suggestion would be to remove some of the Warlocks feats and put them back into the Class as Passives or at least remove them from the Bonus Warlock feat list and add them to general.

Just to clarify: I am well aware that Warlocks get a lot of bonus feats so they can customize their class but while 9 sounds like a lot it really isn't.

Archnon
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Re: Some warlock feedback

Post by Archnon » Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:03 pm

Valrean wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:58 pm
I am going to preface this with the following: I have not played a Warlock yet on the live servers, only on the Test server.

But the biggest issue with the Warlocks right now is that they were basically gutted in the form of all their passives (or most of them) being removed and put into the game as a feat.

I understand the need for feats to improve your summons or your blasts, but there are certain things that are a Class feature that should be a passive gained through levels, not through feats.

in 30 levels you get 3 Feats which are: Uncanny dodge 1, Eldritch Carapace 1&2.

Deceive Item for one is supposed to be a passive feat that you get at level 4 yet here on Arelith you have to take it as a Bonus Warlock feat which, as I mentioned before, are too important to use on something like that.

None of the other classes have to do this, they get most things handed to them as they become stronger in that class just like in PnP.

My suggestion would be to remove some of the Warlocks feats and put them back into the Class as Passives.

Just to clarify: I am well aware that Warlocks get a lot of bonus feats so they can customize their class but while 9 sounds like a lot it really isn't.
Many of these Passives are obtained through specific pacts. I think that was the intention. Focus on pacts and/or blasts and you get a suit of passives alongside. That is just my guess though.

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