New writ "system"

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Rico_scorpion
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New writ "system"

Post by Rico_scorpion » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:26 pm

Hey,

Feel free to use that thread to share other points of view, just figured i would share mine at least.

Anyway, personally I like it. You will zoom by the first few painful levels (and that's most welcome, on certain builds the level 3-4-5 can be brutally slow). It's generous in the way that giving in a quest will feel like a huge step forward for your toon rather than a medium boost once you reach mid levels. It will be MUCH less effective to farm the same dungeon every day (#tombs from 12 to 20... urgh). So people will do more various activities. Suddenly the world opens up again! And yes the world WAS open from the get go, however let's not be naive, for any gamer that cares about effectiveness (= a good chunk of them), doing the (new) Guldorand writs for example, when you could do the Sibayad tombs, just makes 0 sense by any metrics available. Now, you at least might do them once. This creates traffic and is GOOD!

Problems that it might however create :

- The lack of epic writs means that by level 22-23 you're through with what little you could do. Maybe create some for the Minogon plants, duergars, iceroad cloakers, RDI, Baator, Abyss, etc... So that by level 26 your toon has seen a fair amount of the epic content. By leaving a handful of "super epic" dungeons completely writless, we protect their unique feel and it's okay like that.

- With people spreading to other writs than the same few, it will highlight the huge disparity in design approach/difficulty from one writ to another. At similar level ranges, some are absolutely and utterly brutal (and not in a "it's hard but well designed sense", the sheet numbers are bloated or there is a clear "die and retry" mentality in the design, notably with some traps placement), meanwhile others will feel trivial for greater rewards. Balancing them all to feel the same might be a time consuming and streamlining task that might not even be needed... just take the poorly balanced ones and absolutely bloat their xp reward. If someone wants to gather a big party for it, wait to be at the end of the level range, or burn through countless consumables, good for them, at least they would have an incentive to go suffer there.

My two cents.

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Re: New writ "system"

Post by Spriggan Bride » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:50 pm

I would say my biggest problem is that it heavily favors characters who bring no conflicts and who can go anywhere and do any writ. I have one like that and it's great, I'm sure they'll zoom to epics in no time. My other character is a surface warlock who's being very cautious for longevity sake and being able to repeat less populated, out of the way writs is almost a necessity. Don't know if it's even worth bothering to continue playing someone like that at the moment but we'll see, the solution will likely be do the few writs I can then hide in a forgotten corner and grind unless I stumble into some solid and steady group which doesn't seem likely yet.

I understand the intent and tipping the scales towards variety is a noble gesture but taking away the ability to repeat writs at all seems too punitive. Adventure XP's value is subjective... like for me, who tends to do a few writs a night after work on busy weekdays then cram a lot of quality RP in on one or two four or five-hour weekend sessions I don't have enough time to linger in the game for it to mean anything. I understand others spend a lot more time hanging around and that's great for them but I really just completely ignore that system altogether as the benefit is negligible. Guess I just wish the XP given for repeating was reduced to discourage it instead, the point would be made but if that's what you saw as the best option you could still do it.

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Re: New writ "system"

Post by Drowboy » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:53 pm

Shadow plane (and I think elsewhere) writs go up to 25 now, and have for a while.

Although I'd argue that by 20 or so you should know the server well enough to figure out where to get your xp fix.
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Re: New writ "system"

Post by Itikar » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:08 pm

I don't think de facto encouraging grinding is going to be a particularly healthy development. But we will see, I guess.

There is also a non-small issue of the imbalance between characters who can take more writs, because they are allowed in more places, versus characters who are not. And that's not a good imbalance to create either IMHO.

I like the general idea of the change in awarding more directly those who try and complete new writs, but shutting out entirely the direct xp from repeated writs seems a bit too much.

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Re: New writ "system"

Post by kinginyellow » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:18 pm

I don't know how I feel about this system yet. Removing RPR from the equation for passive XP dripping I think is a pretty good idea. Removing the reward XP for writ completion, isn't.

Like other people have stated here, if you can't just go everywhere and do any writ you want you're the most negatively impacted by this. The Underdark has plenty of writs but I'm pretty sure it doesn't have nearly as many as Sibayad, Guld, Bendir, Minmir and the Logging Camp combined.

The changes seem to also have been made to discourage the idea that "RP starts at 30". The reason that belief exists isn't because people want to live out a power fantasy and so they'll only start actually RPing at level 30. Its because playing politics in Arelith is a PVP endeavor, and if you're a new character you can be outplayed purely because your numbers are smaller.

Taking away writ XP doesn't really make this sentiment go away. If you make the grind last longer people are just going to grind for longer, rather than not grind at all.

To discourage the idea that RP starts at 30 you're going to need to change player culture, and systems that make earning XP "harder" aren't going to do this.

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Re: New writ "system"

Post by Curve » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:25 pm

wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:08 pm
There is also a non-small issue of the imbalance between characters who can take more writs, because they are allowed in more places, versus characters who are not. And that's not a good imbalance to create either IMHO.
I don't really understand your your thinking here. Are you saying that more characters will do a wider variety of writs, writs that only outcast-ish type characters used to do to stay away from other people so these characters will interact and thus leveling will be interrupted?

Call me crazy but that seems like a positive.

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Re: New writ "system"

Post by Good Character » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:49 pm

Curve wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:25 pm
I don't really understand your your thinking here. Are you saying that more characters will do a wider variety of writs, writs that only outcast-ish type characters used to do to stay away from other people so these characters will interact and thus leveling will be interrupted?

Call me crazy but that seems like a positive.
Believe they're saying that some characters and races will have it easier, such good-aligned characters or a deep gnome. They have a wider access to writs so a larger XP pool in a way.

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Re: New writ "system"

Post by wulfburk » Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:08 pm

IMO this Writ xp reward change specifically hurts casual players and those without the best builds. if you're a casual player and, say, with a non-spellcaster build, odds are you cant solo most writs of your level (specially in that range of 16-24). Thus, you're going to be repeating those few ones you can actually do easily and quick enough (i know that is how i lvled my own non-spellcaster characters).

Case in point, the current group of players i'm playing with. Though we're all of the same level, i'm the only one that can actually handle most writs of our lvl by myself. So, though there is a wide number of writs, the true options for them is VERY limited (when im not tagging along). And taking risks usually means returning from the writ with almost a net loss in XP and gold (due to dying) and, of course, the time waste.
Thus, if anything, this is disproportionally disadvantaging the casual player vis-a-vis veterans.

And though this is not necessarily something that should be taken into account, this disadvantage is specially true when comparing the casual player that does not know the place of every writ vs the veteran that knows it all. If the casual player can play just two hours per day, odds are he wont even manage to find all 3 new writ locations and complete them in that time, specially in Andunor and in Guldorand. I suppose this is just an outcome of the expanse of Arelith (which i love), and people should really want to explore. But maybe that should come from wanting that, versus getting frustrated wasting hours to find a writ, something 've also seen casual players experience.
Last edited by wulfburk on Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: New writ "system"

Post by Exordius » Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:14 pm

I don't care for these changes, the system was fine as it was.

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Re: New writ "system"

Post by Spriggan Bride » Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:20 pm

Good Character wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:49 pm
Curve wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:25 pm
I don't really understand your your thinking here. Are you saying that more characters will do a wider variety of writs, writs that only outcast-ish type characters used to do to stay away from other people so these characters will interact and thus leveling will be interrupted?

Call me crazy but that seems like a positive.
Believe they're saying that some characters and races will have it easier, such good-aligned characters or a deep gnome. They have a wider access to writs so a larger XP pool in a way.
90% that but I do also believe every character doesn't have to experience every single writ. Repeating writs isn't always a powergamer move, a character choosing their battles ought to be a valid way to play. Maybe if they're an undead hunter they'd rather stick to writs along those lines and let their next character tangle with orcs and trolls. Maybe they're a warlock or pirate and want to stay off the beaten path and not do Cordor, Bendir and Brog writs where random encounters tend to be heavily scrutinized, why is that a bad thing?

As I said I'm not against the change as a whole but it maybe doesn't have to be so draconian and repeating could just give less XP. Flexibity is always preferable as is a gentle nudge instead of barriers.
Last edited by Spriggan Bride on Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New writ "system"

Post by Echohawk » Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:27 pm

What this encourages is people taking new and diverse writs generally speaking. That's where the reward incentivizes.

Ultimately this doesn't have to change anything about taking writs, repeating writs, etc.
You can grind in a corner and turn in rat tails til 30 if you still want to. You can avoid writs all together.

All in all it's a net positive for new characters and especially new players.
If you have a confrontational character that for whatever reason can't seem to buddy up, then no change was ever going to benefit you as far as writs are concerned. For the vast majority of players who don't sit on one character at max XP, this is a very nice boon to help ease folks into the later content that will still take longer to fill out. You'll be in the lower levels for an extremely short amount of time now. A great blessing.

As ever we should encourage the community to try and work with brand new people, either just to find new stories to weave, or even to mentor those that have not tried some writs. There's so many great things that can be elevated from promoting this process.
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Re: New writ "system"

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:03 pm

I welcome any change that slows down the way to lvl 30 (even if it speeds up the pre-epic levels) so I'm 100% on board with this change and I'll even say I've been waiting for something like that very long time - since writs were first added. This is exciting.
Rico_scorpion wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:26 pm
You will zoom by the first few painful levels (and that's most welcome, on certain builds the level 3-4-5 can be brutally slow). It's generous in the way that giving in a quest will feel like a huge step forward for your toon rather than a medium boost once you reach mid levels. It will be MUCH less effective to farm the same dungeon every day (#tombs from 12 to 20... urgh). So people will do more various activities. Suddenly the world opens up again! And yes the world WAS open from the get go, however let's not be naive, for any gamer that cares about effectiveness (= a good chunk of them), doing the (new) Guldorand writs for example, when you could do the Sibayad tombs, just makes 0 sense by any metrics available. Now, you at least might do them once. This creates traffic and is GOOD!
100% agreed.
Rico_scorpion wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:26 pm
Problems that it might however create :

- The lack of epic writs means that by level 22-23 you're through with what little you could do. Maybe create some for the Minogon plants, duergars, iceroad cloakers, RDI, Baator, Abyss, etc... So that by level 26 your toon has seen a fair amount of the epic content. By leaving a handful of "super epic" dungeons completely writless, we protect their unique feel and it's okay like that.
I dont see that as a problem at all, as I welcome an environment where leveling from 21 to 30 is VERY slow although I dont terribly mind if leveling to 21 would remain easy. I was somewhat okay with writs back when they were only up to lvl 17 or so, at the start. I think doing every writ only once will push things back towards my preferred environment where I feel people *can* fly through the early levels, but arent forced to, because the later levels will be slow anyway and they will catch up to their friend's level easily enough when their friend reaches epics first for example. So I like it and dont consider this a problem from what I looks to me right now.
Rico_scorpion wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:26 pm
- With people spreading to other writs than the same few, it will highlight the huge disparity in design approach/difficulty from one writ to another. At similar level ranges, some are absolutely and utterly brutal (and not in a "it's hard but well designed sense", the sheet numbers are bloated or there is a clear "die and retry" mentality in the design, notably with some traps placement), meanwhile others will feel trivial for greater rewards. Balancing them all to feel the same might be a time consuming and streamlining task that might not even be needed... just take the poorly balanced ones and absolutely bloat their xp reward. If someone wants to gather a big party for it, wait to be at the end of the level range, or burn through countless consumables, good for them, at least they would have an incentive to go suffer there.
Here, I'm not even sure what the problem you're observing is. If I understand you correctly, I will say different dungeons have different difficulties and different rewards, some are not worth going to (prior to this update) at all and I agree there are, out of the so many wonderfuly balanced dungeons, some bad apples too. People will still try to avoid them but if they run out of writs they can be rewarded for going to these dungeons with a party at that point. I consider this a good thing, and whether or not some dungeons will *still* remain empty and untouched... we'll see. And maybe tweak their rewards further.
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Re: New writ "system"

Post by Lexx » Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:09 pm

Overall it's a benefit and encouragement to newcomers as said above. I think it's a great concept and hope it sticks.

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Re: New writ "system"

Post by Itikar » Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:33 pm

kinginyellow wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:18 pm
The changes seem to also have been made to discourage the idea that "RP starts at 30". The reason that belief exists isn't because people want to live out a power fantasy and so they'll only start actually RPing at level 30. Its because playing politics in Arelith is a PVP endeavor, and if you're a new character you can be outplayed purely because your numbers are smaller.
It's not even politics or PvP. Even in full "roleplay" builds (which should more properly be called utility, actually) there are features and abilities that are available only in epic levels.

Languages and language slots, crafting some items, crafting wands/potions/scrolls without eating your xp progress, or the many spell utility feats, like wards, teleports, scrying, etc.

Reaching level 30 is simply normal and expected, to achieve the full potential of a character, because that's the point in which most characters spend the most of their time.

That the journey to level 30 is a bit less of a rush is absolutely no problem, but please, do keep in mind, that already with the very fast system that was in place before there were people who struggled to get there, and that could not thus enjoy the full potential of their character.
Spriggan Bride wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:20 pm
90% that but I do also believe every character doesn't have to experience every single writ. Repeating writs isn't always a powergamer move, a character choosing their battles ought to be a valid way to play. Maybe if they're an undead hunter they'd rather stick to writs along those lines and let their next character tangle with orcs and trolls. Maybe they're a warlock or pirate and want to stay off the beaten path and not do Cordor, Bendir and Brog writs where random encounters tend to be heavily scrutinized, why is that a bad thing?

As I said I'm not against the change as a whole but it maybe doesn't have to be so draconian and repeating could just give less XP. Flexibity is always preferable as is a gentle nudge instead of barriers.
Oh, this is also a very important point. Another game I like a lot is City of Heroes, and I have always admired the system of the missions there, which are designed so that each time you make a new character you will have the option to level up through different content. So maybe there will be a hero or villain who will level up by fighting the ghouls, another who will get into an intrigue with former Soviet special forces, another one who will deal with a bunch of superpowered street gangs, and yet another who will deal with a crazy demonic cult, and so on. I think there is very much merit in making so that rolling up a new character will not become a checklist through different writs, in order to optimize the experience gain, because this will quickly become boring. That not everyone makes the same writs is something really healthy.

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Re: New writ "system"

Post by ZeroPointEnergy » Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:15 pm

Pirate writs are a lot like this but the only reason it was doable in the first place is because high levels could help out.

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Re: New writ "system"

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:39 am

I look forward to this change and I am a super casual for actual on the server playtime.

My last character to get to lvl 26 was a pirate and did minimum writ repeats (this was when people can see your greenhorn tattoo too!)

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Re: New writ "system"

Post by Gee look who » Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:03 pm

I will try to keep my post small...

PRO's:
- People seeing more content and doing new things
- More xp for RP.
- Faster low and epic levels (if you did many repeated writs, adv. xp should kick in in epics, a few writs and adv xp, will be quick to level on lows)
- People will need to spend more time to make each writ and find out where and how.


CON's:
- Slower mid-levels
- No more quick writting (hop in, do a quick fast writ in a day that you don't have time will net low direct xp)
- No more alts (making it harder to level, will require you to spend more time in one character, rather then try new things)
- No more warlocks/necros/etc in the surface (More people in different places, and you have to move around yourself, will turn inviable to make those classes prosper while hiding their identity in the surface)
- Good to new players, bad to old players (If you have seen everything, doing harder places for the extra writ xp is just boring and you will rather grind, this will make some areas swamped with people instead of making the writs a success)
- Everyone becomes commoners at epics (With so much adv xp stored, we will see a lot of people standing in cordor square or the hub, learning languages or doing semi afk stuff, for a month, to cash in the xp, instead of actually rp'ing.

You may disagree with me, but that is how it will impact my playtime.

My suggestion is that repeated writs give at least some xp.

For instance, I love deliveries, and making them over and over makes sense (IC'ly). They don't impact other people's playtime, if someone is hunting in the path I take, I can just change the path and let them grind. I can go with people of any level, without impacting their xp, and it is a great way of mixing rp and action. Also great if you are hiding your identity and can't go full infernal in the dungeon. They used to give 1750 xp each in levels 10-20. They could do the same, half as direct and half as adv. xp. I would be ok with that. Getting 0 direct xp, is just bad.

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Re: New writ "system"

Post by Duchess Says » Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:10 pm

Yes I think maybe a perk of being a citizen could be repeatable low xp courier and patrol writs in your home town. Why would a Hawken start in Cordor, go to Guld, go to the Jungles, go to Sibiyad etc if the character is dedicated entirely to protecting the Dale. Patrol writs in particular that get soldiers out and about clearing the roads ought to be repeatable as it gives the settlement's guard faction something to do and makes them appear present.

One thing I would add to your list of what to expect is the elite players will pass around a list of how to tackle writs with maximum efficiency like those 0-60 in 4 days guides you used to see in WOW.

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Re: New writ "system"

Post by Gee look who » Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:43 pm

Duchess Says wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:10 pm
Yes I think maybe a perk of being a citizen could be repeatable low xp courier and patrol writs in your home town. Why would a Hawken start in Cordor, go to Guld, go to the Jungles, go to Sibiyad etc if the character is dedicated entirely to protecting the Dale. Patrol writs in particular that get soldiers out and about clearing the roads ought to be repeatable as it gives the settlement's guard faction something to do and makes them appear present.

One thing I would add to your list of what to expect is the elite players will pass around a list of how to tackle writs with maximum efficiency like those 0-60 in 4 days guides you used to see in WOW.
Good point. You can't do more the 3 in a day though.
I agree some writs should continue repeatable, even if they give less direct xp, it would be nice that they did.

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Re: New writ "system"

Post by Kuma » Sat Sep 11, 2021 11:59 pm

Gee look who wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:03 pm
- Everyone becomes commoners at epics (With so much adv xp stored, we will see a lot of people standing in cordor square or the hub, learning languages or doing semi afk stuff, for a month, to cash in the xp, instead of actually rp'ing.
Read this again slower.

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Re: New writ "system"

Post by VibeKings » Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:03 am

Today I did some mid-teens writs and got 18000 (eighteen thousand) XP on turning in all 3. That's not counting what I got from fighting the monsters. I think people who are complaining about this probably haven't interacted much with the system after it was changed.

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Re: New writ "system"

Post by Zavandar » Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:03 am

i can tell a lot of people in here haven't actually tried writs with the new system

i made a warlock a week ago today. i got it to about 4k from 16 without repeating a single writ yesterday.

between yesterday (again, starting at like 4k from 16) and today, i am now only a few thousand away from 19. again, without having repeated a single writ.

yeah, some dungeons are harder than others. get a group together or something for those. utilize umd/lore. be crafty. leveling has gotten a LOT faster with these changes, which i think is a good thing. it encourages character turnover and makes people more willing to roll their characters because you don't have to slog through all those levels again on a new one.
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Re: New writ "system"

Post by Farlius » Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:13 am

Personally I like now not having to do the same three writs on every character for a specific level range to be optimal.
Less of a blow my brains out tedium.

Also?
Adventure xp being 120 means repeating them for adventure xp is entirely viable.
That means a bosses xp every 5 minutes. That really can't be overstated in how awesome that is allowing the choice of possible writs vs challenging and taking the easier ones for delayed or grouping for instant payoff.

This really does encourage whatever playstyle you want, and I think people need to take a step back, give it a go, and see the merits it has instead of theorising in a vacuum.

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Re: New writ "system"

Post by -XXX- » Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:14 am

Gee look who wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:03 pm

CON's:
- Slower mid-levels
- No more quick writting (hop in, do a quick fast writ in a day that you don't have time will net low direct xp)
- No more alts (making it harder to level, will require you to spend more time in one character, rather then try new things)
I see those as clear upsides!

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Re: New writ "system"

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:29 pm

Zavandar wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:03 am
i can tell a lot of people in here haven't actually tried writs with the new system
You're right, I havent.
Zavandar wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:03 am
i made a warlock a week ago today. i got it to about 4k from 16 without repeating a single writ yesterday.
That pretty much meets my expectations. I have no doubt it's much faster to reach epics. I do hope 21-30 are slower than before, even if slightly. I think they should be. But I'm pretty sure I'm in great minority here.
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