Roleplay Experience

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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Roleplay Experience

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:45 am

Someone posted something about RPR gating classes/races and so on. As a reminder... it does not. The only thing under an official RPR 'gate' is a Good Aligned Monster - and that just means they can get it without an application. 20 rpr players and lower can still play good monsters, they just need an application to the DM team.

Oh - and high rprs get to auto raise 10 rprs to 20 with the -recommend function.

That's it.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Roleplay Experience

Post by MRFTW » Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:45 am

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:45 am
Someone posted something about RPR gating classes/races and so on. As a reminder... it does not. The only thing under an official RPR 'gate' is a Good Aligned Monster - and that just means they can get it without an application. 20 rpr players and lower can still play good monsters, they just need an application to the DM team.

Oh - and high rprs get to auto raise 10 rprs to 20 with the -recommend function.

That's it.
That was me, I deleted it because it was snarky and not helpful.

Unless the wiki is wrong, all awards require 20 RPR.

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Re: Roleplay Experience

Post by mourisson1 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:59 am

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:45 am
Someone posted something about RPR gating classes/races and so on. As a reminder... it does not. The only thing under an official RPR 'gate' is a Good Aligned Monster - and that just means they can get it without an application. 20 rpr players and lower can still play good monsters, they just need an application to the DM team.

Oh - and high rprs get to auto raise 10 rprs to 20 with the -recommend function.

That's it.
Red Dragon Disciple is available to the Kobold race only via an ingame NPC. This also require a 20 Role Play Bonus.
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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Roleplay Experience

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:02 pm

MRFTW wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:45 am
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:45 am
Someone posted something about RPR gating classes/races and so on. As a reminder... it does not. The only thing under an official RPR 'gate' is a Good Aligned Monster - and that just means they can get it without an application. 20 rpr players and lower can still play good monsters, they just need an application to the DM team.

Oh - and high rprs get to auto raise 10 rprs to 20 with the -recommend function.

That's it.
That was me, I deleted it because it was snarky and not helpful.

Unless the wiki is wrong, all awards require 20 RPR.
This is true, but I don't really consier it gating as we give out that level pretty easily.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Roleplay Experience

Post by Archnon » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:09 pm

So .... maybe this deserves its own thread and if so, say so and I will move it, or a staff member can move it. However, it seems to me this conversation is a place to sort of revisit the role Mark of Destiny has on the server.

Now, i don't want to get into the value of taking death seriously. This is a choice and frankly, if the server was 1 death-perma death, I think most of us wouldn't be here. There are also serious issues with player targeting and PVP deaths. However, as it stands, MOD adds +10xp per tick, grants you a cap of 10 deaths, and slightly increases the chance of you getting a higher reward. The purpose it serves for most people currently is this last item.

Even if you disagree with the idea that permadeath is a good thing for everyone (I am in this camp), that limit of 10 deaths actively changes a players RP in good, usually collaborative ways. You are more likely to team up for writs. If you are at one of those weird in-between writ-level points, you are more likely to sit around RPing hoping to get that tick that brings you up to X level where you get your fancy new spell or ability.

However, the MOD +10xp seems pretty insignificant in the changing writ/xp environment. Further, the increase in the chance of a reward seems to be one of the things the Dev's are attempting to balance around, with the potential for sacrifice characters. It seems that part of the conversation encouraging this shift and part of the roll back has been the debate on whether or not leveling becomes too fast for people gunning for sacrifice characters. (I am speculating here as I can't sit in on the fancy meetings but I would be shocked if they weren't thinking of this)

So, what if we reenvisioned the MOD not as a tool for getting a better award but as an in-game XP tool for increasing your leveling earlier. Dump the award bonus. Instead of 10 XP grant a comparably scalable increase to XP not from your adventure pool but from the RPR pool. You could do something like (30-LEVEL)*5. So a level 5 would get 125 XP per tick, a level 15 = 75 XP per tick and a level 25 - 5 XP per tick. If a character turns on adventure mode, you could treat it like kill xp. Give them 50% + 100% in their adventure pool.

Now, I know the suggestion board is closed but if we are gonna go and revolutionize the XP process on the game, I am not ashamed to say more ideas are better and so I'm offering this up to be torn apart by all who are interested in improving everyones experience.

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Re: Roleplay Experience

Post by MRFTW » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:16 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:02 pm

This is true, but I don't really consier it gating as we give out that level pretty easily.
I agree in principle, and anecdotally I got 20 RPR pretty easily, but gating is gating, regardless.

I see the reasons and I agree in principle but it is an opaque system where some people have and some people have not. People like myself can imagine all sorts of demons in the darkness, even when there aren't any.

That's why I'm so strongly in favour of decoupling RPR and basically everything tied to it.

As long as everyone gets a fair shake of the stick, I dont really mind if adventure XP is 120 per tick or 0. The lower it is, the more I feel I have to grind, that's all.

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Re: Roleplay Experience

Post by Definately Not A Mimic » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:20 pm

Adventure xp was implemented and lvling became faster. Writs were implemented and lvling became faster and also having the bonus of showing people who didn't know what areas were appropriate for the level they were so they could grind more easily. Time change to ticking every 5 minutes instead of 6, though very little, still nudged lvling a tad bit faster.

Giving a flat 120xp a tick, on a commoner, shaved off almost 2 full days of time playing to get from lvl 28 to 29. That too me is way Way WAY too fast. This is only my opinion, most think lvling a commoner is torture, but it is a commoner. And that high a lvl already and booking it through? It is just too fast.

I always felt that the lvls working up to 30 are where your story is built and developed. Where you meet people you learn to love or hate, allies and enemies. If you take away a huge chunk of that time how much are you missing in the long run? How much is that changing how your characters story is developing? I like that it has been lowered some but I would agree to decoupling it from your rpr rating and giving everyone the same amount.

As a side note, I did this already because for me it was more fun to explore as I hate grinding, I love that the writ xp changed to try and promote people to go to other dungeons and not just run the same loop every day.

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Re: Roleplay Experience

Post by Curve » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:58 pm

mourisson1 wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:50 am
Whhy does lvl 30 and reaching it matters, if this is the server built on RP and the mentality that "Rp starts on 30" isnt what applies here?
RP starts at 30 is not a concept the server is built on, it is an unhealthy meme.

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Re: Roleplay Experience

Post by mourisson1 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:01 pm

Curve wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:58 pm
mourisson1 wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:50 am
Whhy does lvl 30 and reaching it matters, if this is the server built on RP and the mentality that "Rp starts on 30" isnt what applies here?
RP starts at 30 is not a concept the server is built on, it is an unhealthy meme.
Thank you for expanding my "Rp starts on 30 Isn't what applies here" into "RP starts at 30 is not a concept the server is built on, it is an unhealthy meme."
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Re: Roleplay Experience

Post by Curve » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:09 pm

You are welcome? That was a misread. Oops.

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Re: Roleplay Experience

Post by Good Character » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:12 pm

I think this semi-reversion was good-natured but strangely done. 120XP per hour while grinding was obscenely high. It got to the point where people were running out of Adventure XP.

However, it was a wonderful implementation that helped me split myself from the endless frenzy of grinding. I know it was brought up when this update originally happened and how it's a self-imposed destiny, but level 30 does truly feel like the start of memorable, enjoyable roleplay for me. With the previous update it felt like I could start roleplaying now and still get to level 30 within good time.

In my opinion as someone who does not code, this update should have instead made it to where the 120XP tick happened solely outside of dungeons and in [Rest] areas, or when outside of combat more than in combat during that 5-min window. While in combat make the tick a fraction of 120XP; possibly even what it was originally before these two updates.


EDIT: Was working on this post while the three above me were being made. The reason why people follow that belief is the same reason why a lot of roleplay servers (outside NWN) immediately set you on an even playing field; if you want to play a physically-strong character or an adept wizard or one well-versed at languages, you need to grind your way there. Instead, you need to play someone weak and pitiful in a PW where "level 30 characters" (loosely used as we're honestly talking epic level characters) are the cornerstone of a lot of interesting roleplay.

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Re: Roleplay Experience

Post by Nitro » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:35 pm

Echohawk wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:54 am
-stuff-
You know, people were and continued to be perfectly cordial in this thread both before and after this rant, and no matter what some bad apples might have done on discord I don't think it's very nice to come barging in here calling people ungrateful for giving their opinion in a perfectly cordial, healthy manner.

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-XXX-
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Re: Roleplay Experience

Post by -XXX- » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:44 pm

The XP gain rates are still obscenely high.

Cordial or not, people who are still complaining about that would probably be better served at some "starting at max lvl" server.

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Re: Roleplay Experience

Post by garrbear758 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:48 pm

Cagus wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:26 am
'friends&family' RPB system.
Everything else in here is very fair feedback but I feel like I need to address this because I’ve seen it before and it couldn’t be further from the truth. There’s no friends and family shenanigans going on. I have 20 rpb and had to ask for a review to get to 20. Kalopsia has 20 rpb last I heard. No ones getting a hookup, and everyone I’ve seen on or off the team with a high rpb I’ve interacted with in game very obviously deserved it.
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Re: Roleplay Experience

Post by Farlius » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:29 pm

For anyone suggesting the new change is better than the 120 + Rpr, I want to ask this.
What about it feels more level playing field to you?
A slightly weighted question I admit but let me demonstrate here:
If you use your adventuring xp, which people online longer without a doubt do, epic levels WILL be slower.
People with less time would log in, do a writ or three, rp, log off and retain more. They will take longer to reach epics but have a bank of xp to help push them through.

People that grind will always grind if they so wish. Even checking for combat and reducing the tick gain would be more detrimental to nongrindng individuals. See walking somewhere and hitting a rat being treated the same as grinding 300 orcs.
I am also considerably against making any areas give more xp since said areas may become contested due to conflict via exile or direct pvp 24 hour rule.

From what I have seen in dialogues similar to these there almost seems to be a level of elitism around not levelling fast, and somehow this making a feeling more valid, combined with a prevailing idea that you can't gain levels faster and still be good at rp.

To this end, why are people so fascinated with other peoples levels? Just do what you're going to do.
I will end with saying 120 was maybe too high but getting value + rpr + rpb is a 20 xp gap per tier and just further drives a wedge. A flat 80-100 range plus rpr would be fine imo.
Also don't hate on Echo for saying what she did, I saw how people acted on discord and honestly it was disgusting. She was right to fear what would happen in the thread, though thankfully it didn't.

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Re: Roleplay Experience

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:41 pm

garrbear758 wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:48 pm
Cagus wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:26 am
'friends&family' RPB system.
Everything else in here is very fair feedback but I feel like I need to address this because I’ve seen it before and it couldn’t be further from the truth. There’s no friends and family shenanigans going on. I have 20 rpb and had to ask for a review to get to 20. Kalopsia has 20 rpb last I heard. No ones getting a hookup, and everyone I’ve seen on or off the team with a high rpb I’ve interacted with in game very obviously deserved it.
From speaking with players for 15 years here. What Garr says is very true.

Some of the best players I've known have always had 20 rpr. It's a fact of life. But every time I see a 30-40 rpr player I can literally put my finger and say "that's why they got it" after playing with them for a bit. Some people are just very good at story telling. They are good at taking the spotlight without taking the spot light. They are good as being both protagonists in one story and villains in another's story. They see the big picture and the know how/when to take a loss intentionally even. They can be devs, or not. They can be DMs, or not. They can be heavy grinders who get to lvl 30 in a week. It all doesnt matter.
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Re: Roleplay Experience

Post by Aradin » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:35 pm

This is a really interesting conversation, and I think it's an important one to have. I'm not sure there's a "right" answer to the question of "How quickly should characters on Arelith be able to level up?" Some people would like to get to max level quickly and efficiently for any number of reasons (being on even footing in PVP, getting that "grind goblin" off your shoulder, unlocking RP tools like scrying, yoinking, etc.), some people want the journey to level 30 to be a slow and earned experience, some people don't care either way, and I'd bet some people would just like to be set to max level when they create a new character so as to bypass all of it. And those are all fine and valid takes on xp gain, even if some of them are mutually exclusive.

My opinion would be to err on the side of granting more xp rather than less, for one main reason: as players, we choose when we level up. If you don't want to level up, just don't hit that level up button. But people who want to level quickly don't have a "level up quicker" button. Players who want to level slowly can already level slowly no matter how much xp the system gives them. No amount of xp gain can ever invalidate the tactic of "don't press the level up button".
For sure it takes self-control to not hit that tantalizing button. We're hardwired as gamers to go bigger, faster, stronger whenever we can. But I think that's a terrific tool for players who want the slow journey to 30 (and I'm one of them!). If we can work with that tool, then why not grant more xp overall so the people who want to level quickly can more enjoy their time here?

I think this line from Farlius succinctly sums up my overall view and is a great quote.
Farlius wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:29 pm
...why are people so fascinated with other people's levels? Just do what you're going to do.
Last edited by Aradin on Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Killer on the drive home
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Re: Roleplay Experience

Post by Killer on the drive home » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:50 pm

I think that the other notable servers around do their best to remove any focus on mechanical concerns for players, and that it's apart of why they're Arelith's competition. I don't exactly prefer all the mechanical balance choices for classes on those servers, and then being so hak heavy can be ehh for me, but I find a constant appeal in the chance to actually level with far less stress.

If the idea and motto behind Arelith's system is to encourage rolling, and making new characters, to bring in fresh roleplay, then this is exactly how you do it. I can literally name a dozen people who will NEVER roll their ages old human character because getting level 30 was just too hard.

Edit:

I will say that it is still high. But the fact that rpr has anything to do with it is a big step backwards. To be honest, since the beginning, it's created a system that literally let 30 and 40 rpr players level far faster than anyone else around them, and get to rp far more.

Ive been a 20 rpr Player with many, many 30-40 rpr peers, and keeping up with them in leveling is unreasonable. Ive seen this for my own eyes, with more playtime than these players. So they get to rp, while I need to grind more.
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Re: Roleplay Experience

Post by Ork » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:27 pm

Killer on the drive home wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:50 pm
Ive been a 20 rpr Player with many, many 30-40 rpr peers, and keeping up with them in leveling is unreasonable. Ive seen this for my own eyes, with more playtime than these players. So they get to rp, while I need to grind more.
I don't think this is true. It comes down to experience. Some players know how to grind and where to grind and what tools are necessary to accomplish that task - and some don't. 30 & 40 RPR players are generally players that have been here for over a year(or years) and understand Arelith innately. Now, RPR is only an extra 10 or 20 XP per tic, and that will be barely noticeable to our more dedicated grinders.

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Re: Roleplay Experience

Post by Spriggan Bride » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:30 pm

Leveling speed is a little like cryptocurrency. We’re putting an arbitrary value on how much time is worth, like getting to epics is only meaningful and a character only has value if the player put in a certain amount of their life-hours getting there. In reality a lot of that is repetitive busywork but that’s just how video games are, achievement and advancement is often gotten through subjecting yourself to boredom as much as it comes from real challenge.

But just something to keep in mind— we all have different backgrounds as players so the perceived value of our time can be very different. Players who are a little older, have lots of obligations and feel the panic of not wasting time will probably value rapid leveling more than someone in their teens or early 20s or for whatever other reason can afford to get lost in a video game world for many hours a day. I would say don’t attack anyone on either side of this— if there must be sides in the first place-- because they favor a different pace.
Last edited by Spriggan Bride on Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Roleplay Experience

Post by Curve » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:49 pm

A few things,

-There will always be a large percentage of players who want more and more rewards faster and faster and no matter the effects of those fast rewards. The DEVs should hear but know that that same percentage will always want more faster. If you move the goalposts towards more and faster those players will desire... more faster.
-RPR must have some significant effect on something, be that XP gain or something else. Otherwise the DMs really have no other carrot or stick (aside from temp and perma bans) to promote players playing in positive ways. At least none that I can think of.
-The friends and family RPR thing is bunk.
-From my experience the thing that matter most for higher RPR is the ELC benefit. I have leveled consistently and at the exact same amounts with characters of lower and higher RPR and the effect is usually one level above or below. Not a big deal.

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Re: Roleplay Experience

Post by Maladus » Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:40 pm

This thread's going places. Locked places.

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Re: Roleplay Experience

Post by Ninjimmy » Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:04 pm

Can confirm, Discord was RIDDLED with salt at every change that has come through.

Personally, I liked the 120 XP tick. It did make just bumming around town feel like it accrued value but I do also get that it drains the pool quicker and makes you want to go and circle grind to get it all back.

I dunno the best solution, tbh. Purely selfish, I enjoyed a very easy two levels from 13-15 thanks to the 120 and find epics are a little easier to get involved in things since you arent AS far behind the power curve so rushing to 20 and slogging to 30 feels valid?
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Re: Roleplay Experience

Post by garrbear758 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:08 pm

Echohawk wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:18 pm
Thank you everyone for dismissing me and continuing to carve your way through being continually ungrateful. I get it, I'm not staff, my opinion doesn't matter, and frankly by the way most of you are acting their doesn't matter either.

If you give a mouse a cookie...

Aside from 20 RPR there are no boundaries or mechanics that RPR holds back anymore. What a shock you weren't thankful for that change either. Now I leave myself wishing they would just revert RPB and writs back to how they were since it's apparent that there are those who only ever are going to want more. People whined for days and hours in discord, and now the calmer folks who can compose a thread are going to complain and moan on here, yes under their guise of being meaningful and more detailed in their feedback.

There are people who I care for who have been hurt by this selfishness, and whether or not they believe it, I want them to know that.
Go ahead, make fun of me again. It's the new trend these days.
In the end all you guys want is more and I respect the devs to do what they think is best.
I appreciate it, but I value open and honest feedback and there's been a lot more of that in this thread than anything "salty."
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Re: Roleplay Experience

Post by Watchful Glare » Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:49 pm

What I feel, particularly after the newest changes to writ XP, is that 120xp per tick was self regulating. Adventure XP was finite. So you would get to do your writs a day, get a lot of worth for less grinding, and while that number was high (Which coincidentially would last you for a good three-four hours) you could sit and RP as a low-mid level and it was very worthwhile. Odds are, in that hour to two hours of RP session and your character getting to know others you would get another level when playing a character.

It was not endless XP either. Whether you went to grind or not, it would not matter.

I do not know about others. I do not know about an unspecified amount of people I've seen doing this or that that I can summon for the sake of my argument, but at the very least for myself, it calmed the grind goblin down before the epics. Right or wrong, it felt to me I could lay back from it and RP and not feel like I was missing out.

I liked the changes.

It lessens the grind, by shortening the time and removing the pressure from it. However as a consequence, people are also rewarded with faster leveling. Which I don't see as a bad thing.

Some of these comments are about that leveling should be slower "Because that's how it was back in me day, you should go through what I went through. You don't know how bad we had it, years ago. When I was your age...". And I don't believe that's a good metric to go by, considering every change and implementation the developers have made through the years has proven to be for the best. And what has not, has been changed in order to try to be.

Change can be scary, but not always a bad thing.

Aradin had a great post about this.
Aradin wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:35 pm
This is a really interesting conversation, and I think it's an important one to have. I'm not sure there's a "right" answer to the question of "How quickly should characters on Arelith be able to level up?" Some people would like to get to max level quickly and efficiently for any number of reasons (being on even footing in PVP, getting that "grind goblin" off your shoulder, unlocking RP tools like scrying, yoinking, etc.), some people want the journey to level 30 to be a slow and earned experience, some people don't care either way, and I'd bet some people would just like to be set to max level when they create a new character so as to bypass all of it. And those are all fine and valid takes on xp gain, even if some of them are mutually exclusive.

My opinion would be to err on the side of granting more xp rather than less, for one main reason: as players, we choose when we level up. If you don't want to level up, just don't hit that level up button. But people who want to level quickly don't have a "level up quicker" button. Players who want to level slowly can already level slowly no matter how much xp the system gives them. No amount of xp gain can ever invalidate the tactic of "don't press the level up button".
For sure it takes self-control to not hit that tantalizing button. We're hardwired as gamers to go bigger, faster, stronger whenever we can. But I think that's a terrific tool for players who want the slow journey to 30 (and I'm one of them!). If we can work with that tool, then why not grant more xp overall so the people who want to level quickly can more enjoy their time here?

I think this line from Farlius succinctly sums up my overall view and is a great quote.
Farlius wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:29 pm
...why are people so fascinated with other people's levels? Just do what you're going to do.
It's a tad strange otherwise.
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