I Made a Transmutation Specialist

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Paint
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I Made a Transmutation Specialist: Gaiden

Post by Paint » Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:33 am

I am once again bumping this topic to talk about Trasmutation specialists outside a vacuum and why I think that, with the recent updates to classes that do similar things, it is now fair to call Transmutation Specialization a trap option. That is to say, an option that dangles one very interesting thing in front of you, but doesn't give you enough for what you invest into it. I'm not trying to be salty here. I am currently working on doing some broader numbers for all of the specialists to see if I can or cannot recommend a few of them,(Illu and Enchantment remain pretty good choices. The tradeoffs are harsh, but what you get in return is good for RP and can be decent for mechanics.) but here goes:

A Transmutation Wizard focused on Tenser's -- Difficult, but doable thanks to your zoobuffs, you can have a full +15 attack stat -- Dex or Str -- and have access to 9th level spells and have AB in the 48-53 range (I'll elaborate on the math a little later). Plus CL*6 Temp HP every time you hit the Tenser's button.

This looks really decent if you take it at face value. However, Shaman and Spellswords can hit similar ABs. Battle Favored Souls & Clerics blow those numbers out of the water. On top of this, these classes often have better base HP and/or access to regen. Finally, barring spellswords, all of these classes can cast while using their analog to tensers.

Furthermore, with Spellsword having access to Mordekainen's Disjunction and Timestop, the notion that Transmutation Wizards are powerful wizards and therefore, shouldn't be able to do anything martial as well as a martial class starts to feel a little silly.

Finally, in order to get the numbers above, you have to have a significant feat investment to do well with them, which follows; For melee variants: Weapon Focus, Blind Fight, Expertise, Improved Expertise, Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Prowess. Optionally, or not optionally depending on whether you want to do decent damage, Improved Critical. There's also Knockdown and Improved Knockdown to think about, but those are both optional. That's seven or more feats! That's seven feats worth of stuff you could put into wizard feats that you are instead putting into martial ability. There are ways to take the edge off, namely, dipping Fighter becomes very attractive, but for every level you dip fighter, your CL drops. In order to remain in tenser's, you need to have a decently high CL, which makes Spell Focus: Abjuration and Arcane Defense: Abjuration both a must.(Which'll eat two of your pre-epic wizard feats.)

For ranged variants -- which work well with Ranger because of this -- you need Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Focus, Rapid Reload or Rapid Shot, Point Blank Shot, Blind Fight, Epic Prowess and optionally Improved Critical. Called Shot is nice to have, but not a requirement. That's an investment of six feats to seven feats, so slightly less.

Here's the math for the AB range above:
15 BAB at 30(10 from wizard, 5 from epic progression)
14-16 STR or DEX modifier
12-13 From Transmutation Specialist Tenser's(It gives you slightly more AB if you're a transmutation specialist)
4-5 Weapon Enhancement Bonus
3-4 Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Prowess

48-53 AB in Tenser's.

Because of the way the soft AB cap works, you can't ever go above +20 soft AB. Factored into this is all of the Tenser's Bonus, and the Weapon Enhancement Bonus. Here's what a Tenser's Wizard chugging a TS pot looks like:

15 BAB
20 Soft Attack Bonus
14-16 STR or DEX
3-4 Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Prowess

52-55 AB in Tenser's with the Soft AB cap maxed.

Epic Prowess is almost essential specifically because it counts as hard AB. You can see why here. Again, while you're in Tenser's -- which takes at least half a round to enter, and which you'll have a limited number of uses of every three minutes, and which you'll have to dispel in order to cast any spells -- your AB'll hover around 48-53. Potentially 55 if you've got a bard friend. This is enough to deal with some rough PVE stuff, but it's contingent entirely on whether or not you get dispelled. I don't have confirmation on this, but some testing suggests the signature spell version of Tenser's Transformation casts at a lower CL than it's supposed to, making it even more susceptible to dispels.

So let's talk AC. EMA gives you a +5 Armor Bonus, +5 Deflection Bonus, +5 Natural Armor Bonus, and +5 Dodge Bonus to your AC. It's pretty cool.

Dex Option:
10 -- Base AC
5-6 -- Shield(If you dip for it.)
20 -- EMA
14-16 Dex
1 -- MA(Dodge bonus stacks with EMA for some reason)
1 -- Dodge Boots
3-6 -- Tumble
2 -- Armor Skin
4 -- Haste

60-66 AC(Or +1 if you're small-sized) This is actually pretty good with Improved Expertise,(76 AC? Wow!) but it hinges on using a shield or parry, and falls apart when you can't do that.

Strength Option:
10 -- Base AC
8-9 -- Armor(Between Dex Bonus & Armor Bonus. If you dip for it, you'll need still spell to compensate for Arcane Spell Failure. Edit: Or use Spellthief's & A Greensteel Large Shield. Whoops.)
5-6 -- Shield
20 -- EMA
1 -- MA
1 -- Dodge boots
3-6 -- Tumble
2 -- Armor Skin
4 -- Haste

54-59 AC(Or, again +1 if you're small-sized) This looks great, but you'll need still spell or automatic still spell to make this work, which further eats into your feats. Curiously, the signature spell version of Tenser's is not affected by ASF. I played around with making something like this work, and I couldn't make it work in a way that made any amount of sense to me. If you can get it to work, you can potentially have a strength build with 69 AC in IE(Nice.)

High AC is great, but a ranged Tenser's wizard will make a lot more sense, since your damage is less dependent on your attack stat. However, if you want to make a ranged full-caster, it's still recommended to make a zen archer shaman or cleric, as they have access to spells that will allow them to out perform your tenser's wizard easily.

Caster-focused Transmutation Specialist

So let's talk about taking the specialization to be an actual caster. Losing conjuration sucks just, a lot. There are plenty of spells in conjuration aside from summoning monsters that are pretty great. Mestil's Acid Sheath and Acid Fog come to mind.(Mage Armor and Flame Arrow[Which is Conjuration!], you can get back through Shadow Conjuration/Evocation, but you can't empower or max a shadow conjuration flame arrow.) Even so, you can still summon undead, and you can buff them pretty dang well since your Transmutation specialist boon affects all consumable versions of the zoobuffs. However, a clever generalist wizard'll with transmutation spell foci'll be able to do the same thing just fine with pots & empowered zoobuffs. And again, so can shamans, so can favored souls, and so can clerics.(Who also get access to Aura of Vitality.) You're not actually getting much special. In a well-equipped party, you won't act as a particularly more canny support either. Your zoobuffs will help your allies hit the caps they're already trying to hit with their equipment. So while +8 auto-maxed zoobuffs sound really attractive, in practice, its uses v. the standard empowered trans foci zoobuffs are edge-cases. They might help your undead be slightly better than the competition.

The point is, even as a caster, it's luke-warm, and if you're a surfacer, it's going to be a hell of a struggle until you get access to EMA and Planar Conduit.

Additionally, I never really did get an answer on whether or not Planar Conduit or EMA are cheating for Transmutation Specialists, since both of these are technically rooted in Conjuration -- Transmutation Specialist's banned schools. But if they are, then there's going to be a lot of changes up there.

Maybe Tenser's Transformation is supposed to be used by a caster-focused wizard as a PVE tool then, right? Here's what the AB looks like for that:

15 BAB
9-10 Attack Stat Mod(Dex or Strength.)
12-13 from Tenser's
4-5 Weapon Enhancement Bonus

40-43 AB at ~ 4-5 APR with Tenser's & Haste. 43 AB isn't near enough to be impressive against a lot of PVE enemies at 30. It might help you clear road-trash.

Alright, so what's my conclusion here? Transmutation Specialist actually had some strong, unusual, and really cheesy synergies back before the monk nerfs and a few other things were shuffled around, especially as a wizard-focused melee. But with the advent of the new Spellswords -- which are wicked cool -- it's become more than obvious that the niche that Transmutation Specialists have been trying to muscle into is just something they were never meant to. Maybe it's time to re-think how these specializations work, and how wizard, in general, functions outside of a vacuum.

My whole big archetypal fantasy for Transmutation wizards is this: You have a wizard that obsesses over magic not for the sake of the pursuit of knowledge, but for the perfection of themselves through magic. Physical, mental, emotional perfection through magic that they rigorously study to change themselves rather than the world around them. Whether they do this to take idealized forms, or obssessively, vainly improve their own form, it is something they single-mindedly focus their studies on. The martial prowess that comes from this should be secondary -- less a focus of their work, and more the fruit of it. While they should never be as skilled as someone who has dedicated their mind, body, and soul to the very real and physical pursuit of martial combat, they should be terrifying in their own right -- something you approach with apprehension, and the knowledge that the fight with a transmutationist wizard is best ended before their transformation can take hold. I think that's a cool idea. Maybe you think it's just more wizard goofin'.

But.

Arelith doesn't currently have a space for it, and maybe it shouldn't. Not every casting class should be able to fill every niche, and maybe wizard's don't -need- to also be able to do martial combat. Especially not with spellswords around. So if there's anything I'd like to ask the developers to do for transmutationist wizards, it's don't try to make them subpar fighters. Make them more interesting casters. Forget Tenser's Transformation. Make their specialist boons worth losing what they lose, and make them feel like transmutationists who dabble in changing things. Changing themselves. Changing others, etc.

That's my final take on Transmutation Specialists. For now, don't play them. It's a trap.

If you want to play a character who's obsessed with the transmutation school, pick a generalist wizard and nab all the foci and just roleplay it out. Alternatively, the illusion spec is rock solid. Losing out on enchantment sucks, but you can almost entirely ignore the school, it nets you an extra spell of every spell level a day, the illusion spec bonuses are great for roleplay and QoL, and the bonuses to bluff and perform synergize with the idea of a transmutationist that alters themselves in little ways.

If you disagree with my numbers or I left anything out, feel free to correct me. I tried to be thorough, but I always forget a bonus here or there.
Last edited by Paint on Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lexx
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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Lexx » Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:47 pm

Just so you know. You can also empower tensers for extra bonuses. Also I find transmutation specialists for melee builds work best if you take 6 ranks of say fighter, swash or rogue or some such. Other high base attack martials can work too. But it shines quite well for dex or str options if you mix it with another class. full 30 feels better suited for being a dc casting and high int setup. With tensers being an afterthought there.

Vangrave
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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Vangrave » Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:04 pm

I think the last time I wrote on the subject it was a bit hard to follow, so I'll try to organize a little more effectively.

Transmuter is a fun concept, but I agree with Paint that the various nerfs (but targeted an unintentional) have rendered it a complete trap pick. The AB and AC numbers above make it look far better than it actually is because those upper bounds all require building exclusively to hit those numbers, ignoring either damage, which is already quite anemic, or AC, which is generally very low outside of dex (which has next to no damage)

Dispels
-----
The elephant in the room. Everything about the transmuter is held back by dispels. The class needs to dip for AC, damage, weapon and armor proficiencies, and to push a pre-epic feat into the epic feat range, but because of the way dispels work it's also punished heavily for dipping. Battle clerics and shamans are already hurt pretty badly by dispels, and transmuters somehow manage to one up them on this regard.

One dispel will absolutely trash your character because you're running with d4 HP and low con relying on temp HP, and woe be to you if you are using the signature version of tensers instead of the one in your spellbook. The signature version is 15 CL and will be constantly dispelled even in PvE at higher levels, leaving you in the middle of a bunch of monsters with your pants down.

Part of the reason battle casters have such high values for AB/damage is because of dispels - you'd expect if a class was more vulnerable to dispels and couldn't cast it would have combat stats on par, or at least higher. This isn't the case, though.

AB
-----
Realistic AB ranges from 46 to 50 - you have to give up far too much hard constitution points to make it sane to get your strength mod to 14 or 15 - you'd end up with a melee character that has lowish AC and 160 points of HP when dispelled. Ouch. Even with full strength investment, the AB is generally lower than the various divine battle casters, which can all also cast in combat. AB is definitely not the transmuter's strong point.

AC
-----
Decent AC values require either monk dip, dex, and/or a shield and Autostill, but each of these options has a pretty big weakness in that your damage or AB will suffer immensely.

The AC values listed by Paint are also under hyper ideal conditions that can't really be realistically built for while having a functional character - e.g. autostill to use a tower shield on a dex char, ultra low constitution, etc. Parry likewise will not progress past 3 AC on a transmuter due to BAB.

I think more realistic values are 50-52 (2h) to mid-high 50s.

Damage
-----
Transmuter personal damage is generally anemic, not much to be said beyond that. You'd imagine it's because they can summon, and indeed transmuters essentially are carried by their summons (once they can get them), but favored souls and battle clerics have higher personal damage and can both freely use gate, while shaman can use ele swarm and conjure IX, and all of them can freely use the same planar conduit and necromancy summons a Transmuter can - and in fact can make them stronger than a transmuter can thanks to things like regeneration, bless, spell resistance, etc.

Support
-----
Whatever else a transmuter is, it's still a class that can cast morde's and mass haste. Unfortunately, so can a spellsword, and they can do so without losing the ability to melee and while also using some really fun elemental strikes. Additionally, thanks to the 15 CL on the signature tenser's, you need to generally carry some memorized tenser's casts in your book which will take up some of the circle 6 or 7 slots used by mass haste, meaning that a spellsword is generally better than a transmuter for arcane support. While divine casters can't naturally caste mordes or mass haste, they do have healing spells and various powerful long duration versions of freedom of movement, death ward, etc. The ability to use healing spells is particularly relevant given that sobriety now limits healing potion usage in pvp. This, of course, is ignoring another large issue when comparing arcane to divine support.

UMD Tomes
-----
Battleclerics and Favored souls both can easily take UMD, meaning they actually have access to many of the best spells a wizard has with what is essentially a painless investment. While they can't spam them, neither can a transmuter - limited spell slots and tenser's assures that. I think this along with their other abilities solidly places them above transmuters support-wise considering you can't really take a UMD dip on a transmuter.

Summons
-----
Well, not to beat a dead horse, but they're not too fun. You either painfully crawl your way to planar conduit or become an animator, at which point everyone will treat you like a necromancer rather than a transmuter. Leadership was floated as an alternative, but leadership is not a class skill for wizards, so leadership requirements are simply too high to make this a viable option.

Casting Spells
-----
You generally will cast less than a spellsword does, which is pretty ironic. To be honest, you only trigger haste and tenser's most of the time. Maybe at the end of the dungeon you'd use some walls of fire or maximized IGMS. It doesn't really feel like a wizard, which is a bit strange to say.

Signature Abilities
-----
The zoo buff increase is fun, but ultimately not useful by end game for anything but buffing planar conduit. Undead can already be buffed to max using negative burst + empowered zoo buffs by a regular caster, and the difference is only 1 AB anyway. The zoo buffs can help a little at lower levels.

The tenser's HP increase and AB increases are nice, but you can't build to rely on the tenser's HP increase because it's relatively easily dispelled. The AB increase recently dropped by 3 due to a bug fix, but is nice if not particularly interesting.

The signature spells suffer from the 15 Cl that all sig spells have. The tenser's sig spell, in particular, becomes a dangerous liability in some situations due to how easily it's dispelled even by regular mooks in high level PvE. Meanwhile, the transmuter doesn't have the int to effectively make use of the stone to flesh spell, making it a bit of waste. It's fun to use on random goblins though.

As a pure Caster
-----
There's only one transmutation spell with a DC worth using: flesh to stone. Additionally, you get zero benefits toward your spellcasting as a specialist. It's essentially breaking your knees for no reason. No one should be a caster transmuter - to echo Paint, just pick literally anything else and take some transmutation feats.

What does it need?
-----
I'm not entirely sure exactly how to balance it because it simply has so many weaknesses, though this is hardly unique to transmuters as most wizard specialists make large sacrifices for very little return. Addressing any of the issues would help immensely.

On a deeper level, I think the entire central idea is kind of broken, especially with the spellsword rework providing an entertaining and diverse array of muscle wizard type options. As it stands, transmuter makes enormous sacrifices to reach a level of power far lower than other battle casters. It also doesn't feel much more magical than a mundane, to be honest, given how it basically loses every spell cookie except for transmutation due to its need for melee feats.

Personally, I think it'd be fun if the class was more like a PnP transmuter, making effective use of shapechange type spells. It would certainly differentiate it from spellswords. Given the amount of work involved, this is probably unrealistic, though.

Lexx wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:47 pm
Just so you know. You can also empower tensers for extra bonuses. Also I find transmutation specialists for melee builds work best if you take 6 ranks of say fighter, swash or rogue or some such. Other high base attack martials can work too. But it shines quite well for dex or str options if you mix it with another class. full 30 feels better suited for being a dc casting and high int setup. With tensers being an afterthought there.
The only thing empowering it does is increase the temp HP, so saying extra bonusES is a bit misleading. Nothing else goes up. It's certainly an option, though you're quite feat starved and taking empower means you probably won't have space for maximize for IGMS, though it does let you use empower on wall of fire for easier PvE.

As for taking 6 levels of fighter, the entire class is based around magic buffs. Going to 24 CL is suicidal and will leave your effects at a 55% chance of being dispelled by a caster with abjuration foci (which is basically any caster that pvps). Even 45%, which you get with AD abjuration, is pretty terrible. Heck, even being 28CL vs dispels can be pretty rough when one dispel can strip 200 HP from you.

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Algol
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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Algol » Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:26 pm

Slow is another excellent DC spell transmutation has.

Lexx
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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Lexx » Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:27 am

Vangrave wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:04 pm
I think the last time I wrote on the subject it was a bit hard to follow, so I'll try to organize a little more effectively.

Transmuter is a fun concept, but I agree with Paint that the various nerfs (but targeted an unintentional) have rendered it a complete trap pick. The AB and AC numbers above make it look far better than it actually is because those upper bounds all require building exclusively to hit those numbers, ignoring either damage, which is already quite anemic, or AC, which is generally very low outside of dex (which has next to no damage)

Dispels
-----
The elephant in the room. Everything about the transmuter is held back by dispels. The class needs to dip for AC, damage, weapon and armor proficiencies, and to push a pre-epic feat into the epic feat range, but because of the way dispels work it's also punished heavily for dipping. Battle clerics and shamans are already hurt pretty badly by dispels, and transmuters somehow manage to one up them on this regard.

One dispel will absolutely trash your character because you're running with d4 HP and low con relying on temp HP, and woe be to you if you are using the signature version of tensers instead of the one in your spellbook. The signature version is 15 CL and will be constantly dispelled even in PvE at higher levels, leaving you in the middle of a bunch of monsters with your pants down.

Part of the reason battle casters have such high values for AB/damage is because of dispels - you'd expect if a class was more vulnerable to dispels and couldn't cast it would have combat stats on par, or at least higher. This isn't the case, though.

AB
-----
Realistic AB ranges from 46 to 50 - you have to give up far too much hard constitution points to make it sane to get your strength mod to 14 or 15 - you'd end up with a melee character that has lowish AC and 160 points of HP when dispelled. Ouch. Even with full strength investment, the AB is generally lower than the various divine battle casters, which can all also cast in combat. AB is definitely not the transmuter's strong point.

AC
-----
Decent AC values require either monk dip, dex, and/or a shield and Autostill, but each of these options has a pretty big weakness in that your damage or AB will suffer immensely.

The AC values listed by Paint are also under hyper ideal conditions that can't really be realistically built for while having a functional character - e.g. autostill to use a tower shield on a dex char, ultra low constitution, etc. Parry likewise will not progress past 3 AC on a transmuter due to BAB.

I think more realistic values are 50-52 (2h) to mid-high 50s.

Damage
-----
Transmuter personal damage is generally anemic, not much to be said beyond that. You'd imagine it's because they can summon, and indeed transmuters essentially are carried by their summons (once they can get them), but favored souls and battle clerics have higher personal damage and can both freely use gate, while shaman can use ele swarm and conjure IX, and all of them can freely use the same planar conduit and necromancy summons a Transmuter can - and in fact can make them stronger than a transmuter can thanks to things like regeneration, bless, spell resistance, etc.

Support
-----
Whatever else a transmuter is, it's still a class that can cast morde's and mass haste. Unfortunately, so can a spellsword, and they can do so without losing the ability to melee and while also using some really fun elemental strikes. Additionally, thanks to the 15 CL on the signature tenser's, you need to generally carry some memorized tenser's casts in your book which will take up some of the circle 6 or 7 slots used by mass haste, meaning that a spellsword is generally better than a transmuter for arcane support. While divine casters can't naturally caste mordes or mass haste, they do have healing spells and various powerful long duration versions of freedom of movement, death ward, etc. The ability to use healing spells is particularly relevant given that sobriety now limits healing potion usage in pvp. This, of course, is ignoring another large issue when comparing arcane to divine support.

UMD Tomes
-----
Battleclerics and Favored souls both can easily take UMD, meaning they actually have access to many of the best spells a wizard has with what is essentially a painless investment. While they can't spam them, neither can a transmuter - limited spell slots and tenser's assures that. I think this along with their other abilities solidly places them above transmuters support-wise considering you can't really take a UMD dip on a transmuter.

Summons
-----
Well, not to beat a dead horse, but they're not too fun. You either painfully crawl your way to planar conduit or become an animator, at which point everyone will treat you like a necromancer rather than a transmuter. Leadership was floated as an alternative, but leadership is not a class skill for wizards, so leadership requirements are simply too high to make this a viable option.

Casting Spells
-----
You generally will cast less than a spellsword does, which is pretty ironic. To be honest, you only trigger haste and tenser's most of the time. Maybe at the end of the dungeon you'd use some walls of fire or maximized IGMS. It doesn't really feel like a wizard, which is a bit strange to say.

Signature Abilities
-----
The zoo buff increase is fun, but ultimately not useful by end game for anything but buffing planar conduit. Undead can already be buffed to max using negative burst + empowered zoo buffs by a regular caster, and the difference is only 1 AB anyway. The zoo buffs can help a little at lower levels.

The tenser's HP increase and AB increases are nice, but you can't build to rely on the tenser's HP increase because it's relatively easily dispelled. The AB increase recently dropped by 3 due to a bug fix, but is nice if not particularly interesting.

The signature spells suffer from the 15 Cl that all sig spells have. The tenser's sig spell, in particular, becomes a dangerous liability in some situations due to how easily it's dispelled even by regular mooks in high level PvE. Meanwhile, the transmuter doesn't have the int to effectively make use of the stone to flesh spell, making it a bit of waste. It's fun to use on random goblins though.

As a pure Caster
-----
There's only one transmutation spell with a DC worth using: flesh to stone. Additionally, you get zero benefits toward your spellcasting as a specialist. It's essentially breaking your knees for no reason. No one should be a caster transmuter - to echo Paint, just pick literally anything else and take some transmutation feats.

What does it need?
-----
I'm not entirely sure exactly how to balance it because it simply has so many weaknesses, though this is hardly unique to transmuters as most wizard specialists make large sacrifices for very little return. Addressing any of the issues would help immensely.

On a deeper level, I think the entire central idea is kind of broken, especially with the spellsword rework providing an entertaining and diverse array of muscle wizard type options. As it stands, transmuter makes enormous sacrifices to reach a level of power far lower than other battle casters. It also doesn't feel much more magical than a mundane, to be honest, given how it basically loses every spell cookie except for transmutation due to its need for melee feats.

Personally, I think it'd be fun if the class was more like a PnP transmuter, making effective use of shapechange type spells. It would certainly differentiate it from spellswords. Given the amount of work involved, this is probably unrealistic, though.

Lexx wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:47 pm
Just so you know. You can also empower tensers for extra bonuses. Also I find transmutation specialists for melee builds work best if you take 6 ranks of say fighter, swash or rogue or some such. Other high base attack martials can work too. But it shines quite well for dex or str options if you mix it with another class. full 30 feels better suited for being a dc casting and high int setup. With tensers being an afterthought there.
The only thing empowering it does is increase the temp HP, so saying extra bonusES is a bit misleading. Nothing else goes up. It's certainly an option, though you're quite feat starved and taking empower means you probably won't have space for maximize for IGMS, though it does let you use empower on wall of fire for easier PvE.

As for taking 6 levels of fighter, the entire class is based around magic buffs. Going to 24 CL is suicidal and will leave your effects at a 55% chance of being dispelled by a caster with abjuration foci (which is basically any caster that pvps). Even 45%, which you get with AD abjuration, is pretty terrible. Heck, even being 28CL vs dispels can be pretty rough when one dispel can strip 200 HP from you.

I've never had an issue with being 6 deep in a martial in a caster in the years I've played. It's honestly made up some of the more enjoyable setups I've played in my time on the server, pvp included.

Transmuter isn't top tier but it's still viable and fun.

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MissEvelyn
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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by MissEvelyn » Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:47 am

But on the flip side, transmuters get to essentially live forever! Sure, that's not something that is mechanically enforced on Arelith, but it works in RP.

They are the masters of transmutation magic, being able to change and bend the laws of nature and physics to their will.
For example, in the Forgotten Realms, ethical and pain-free birth control is often made by Transmuters.

So sure, your power level might suck, but the roleplay you get out of it ought to be interesting 😊 And if you are with a group, they are going to love all the buffs you bestow upon them. So it's not all that terrible if you don't care about not being able to solo grind epic dungeons.


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Paint
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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Paint » Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:17 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:47 am
But on the flip side, transmuters get to essentially live forever! Sure, that's not something that is mechanically enforced on Arelith, but it works in RP.

They are the masters of transmutation magic, being able to change and bend the laws of nature and physics to their will.
For example, in the Forgotten Realms, ethical and pain-free birth control is often made by Transmuters.

So sure, your power level might suck, but the roleplay you get out of it ought to be interesting 😊 And if you are with a group, they are going to love all the buffs you bestow upon them. So it's not all that terrible if you don't care about not being able to solo grind epic dungeons.
See my post above for why transmuter buffs aren't particularly special or great. To the point, generalist wizards can buff more or less just about as good as a transmuter in any party that has decent gear, and transmuter wizards can't buff as well as a cleric, favored soul, or shaman, barring mass haste, which transmuter doesn't get any unique bonus for.

Anyways, to address the conversation above a little more generally...

I'm not exactly new to playing underpowered or janky classes. I do it all the time. I made a battle shaman before the battle shaman buffs and found a weird niche where it actually worked for me. It was still terrible, and the new changes to shaman have made me really happy about where the class is now. It's flexible and has a lot going for it. It's never been a better time to be a shaman, and I'm loving it with mine.

But, I don't really think, "I had fun with it, so it's fine," is a good way to have a constructive conversation about this either. For example, people have had fun with Shifter, but Shifter is in a really, really bad place. You can have fun with things that are sub-optimal or flat-out terrible. If you want to play Shifter knowing that it's in a horrible place and that you're bound for a lot of frustration and suffering, and you know you'll have fun with it, then you're going to do it whether or not it sucks. I will never recommend anyone play Shifter, but I'm not going to go out of my way to stop anyone from doing it either. There's unique RP to be had there, and I've had fun with a couple of Shifters in my day.

All of that said, that's not really what I'm trying to discuss here. I don't even want wizard specialists to necessarily be the best at what they do, either. I mean, vanilla specialists weren't uh, good. But with Arelith being the way it is and a lot of classes having flexibility and flavor, I just want them to feel like good trades mechanically, and I think there's merit in asking for that rather than insisting that things are fine and nothing needs to be done. The numbers above speak for themselves if you read them.

To the point, I'm going to tell people that transmuters are a mechanical trap, and that if they want the roleplay of a transmuter, to avoid taking the specialization and just take the foci and call it a day, because to me, that's the logical conclusion of the numbers I've ran, and the specialization where it stands now. Hell, if you want to play a transmuter with a combat lean, just draft up a spellsword and call them a transmuter. They'll play smoother, the roleplay'll be the same, and you'll have more fun because spellsword is wicked sick.

This thread was created by me to provide feedback on a very specific niche in Arelith and to give people guidance on what they're getting into. If you still want to play a transmuter wizard after reading through some of this stuff, please do it. Engage in PVE. Engage in PVP. Do it frequently, and against a variety of builds. If you don't have an IC reason to do that, try it out on PGCC. I had some pretty fun duels on PGCC trying to figure out where the spec is.

Grapple with the mechanics and push them as far as you can. I want you to feel what I feel. It is fun, but you will feel the sting of your choices. You'll fall off in PVE to the point of being anemic against some content in a group -- which doesn't feel great -- in PVP your choices will be difficult, and against any skilled opponent, your weaknesses will be readily exploited.

Then, go play a build with a similar playstyle and feel what the difference is -- night and day.

In order to avoid repeating myself, I think this is going to be my last input on this topic. I want to write up a broader look at specialists pretty soon here, because there's gold in them there hills just waiting to be mined. I want to thank everyone who's participated in this and shared their opinions, whether I agreed with them or not. And again, I'm not trying to direct any salt or pressure at developers. I get that people are going to work on the things that interest them, and if nobody's interested in this, or has a solution for this very specific thing at this time, that's fine.
Last edited by Paint on Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Eyeliner » Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:43 am

Most of the specialist paths have something going for them and I think there's gold there too. I'd like to see them be able to cast from the forbidden spell school but with severe penalty, like shadow mages and the evocation school, so losing conjuration doesn't kill your ability to summon for leveling, essential buffs like haste could be saved on conjurers but only last half as long and so on.

But transmutation is a gimmick and not really one that can be redeemed. It probably needs to be rethought and made a route that rewards a standard high INT wizards with a unique flavor like the other specialists, not encouraging a high STR or DEX battle-wizard build that doesn't really work.

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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:39 pm

All specialists are trap options, with cookies for those willing to embrace traps. I still hold that Conjuration specialist is biggest trap with not being able to extend self haste, Greater sanctuary, and time stop being loss and all your conjuration bonuses being offset by loss of better trans buffing

A transmutation specialist on the other hand, though boring compared to a flashy spellsword, can achieve plus 10 empower animal buffing on all their undead summons which translates to t more ab, ac and 5 more hp hd. (So sad for those not wanting Necromancy, find a summoning item i guess much like how conj specialist has too.. That's a personal choice too trans specialist can still use undead balance wise) while being an effective front line gish.

Trans specialist might be my favourite "trap" in terms of unique niche

Lets take a look at 27 tran specialist 3 monk (we can even 2 hand dex nodachi now). Not going super heavy into intelligence we should be able to reach 14 dex mod with around base wis 14 on a high dex race (i might be wrong)

10 base
14 dex
8 wis
6 tumble
2 dodge (mage armor and boots)
20 ema
4 haste
= 64 no expertise ac (maybe only 62 if wisdom is lower)

Lets not forget your undead will be better buffed than than any other caster. This is solid before we even touch the usefulness of tenser. Having high ac and being able to mass haste a party and or your super buffed undead is no laughing matter. Your IGMS doesn't need a save either.

Tenser AB:
25 bab (modified so true strike will be useless)
2 trans specialist
1. Two handing
4 unique nodachi
14 dex mod
3 Maybe? EWF (prob too feat tight for prowess

So like 46 to 49 (maybe 50 ab if making other sacrifices) ab but 4 of your attacks will be at max ab. You can actually do pve content with improved nexpertise on and be the front liner with 70+ ac (oh gosh if you get a bard in the Party for both you and your summons).

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Party in the forest at midnight
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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:13 pm

Not all are trap options. You could take divination or enchantment, you don't lose too much by giving up illusion. Specializing in illusion isn't too terrible, you give up mass haste which is the only big drawback. ​I guess you could be a necromancer if you wanted to give up casting see invisibility and true seeing. This seems closer to being a trap option, I value those spells a lot. But a lot of core spells will still be there.

The only schools that are trap options are ones that give up transmutation or conjuration. Which are half of the schools unfortunately. And this is why we only see these threads pop up for specialists that give up conjuration or transmutation.

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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by RedGiant » Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:41 pm

Not to derail and/or practice threadomancy, but many of your complaints here are just generally true of wizards.

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=35107&p=275885&hil ... rd#p275885

Wizards of all types probably deserve a look, especially their skills. And though this has so far fallen on deaf ears and, I think the entire breaching mechanic (not dispelling) either needs to be chucked or severely reduced in scope.
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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Eyeliner » Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:30 pm

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:13 pm
Not all are trap options. You could take divination or enchantment, you don't lose too much by giving up illusion. Specializing in illusion isn't too terrible, you give up mass haste which is the only big drawback. ​I guess you could be a necromancer if you wanted to give up casting see invisibility and true seeing. This seems closer to being a trap option, I value those spells a lot. But a lot of core spells will still be there.

The only schools that are trap options are ones that give up transmutation or conjuration. Which are half of the schools unfortunately. And this is why we only see these threads pop up for specialists that give up conjuration or transmutation.
Yeah, they're not all "traps" by the definition of this term I'm starting to hate.

Transmutation and Conjuration specialties are "traps" because less experienced players will think they see some awesome advantage on paper and/or when leveling but then be stuck with a problematic character later on. The others can be worked around but the experience and quirks differ so much you can't lump them all together. I understand not giving a damn and just hand-waving them all and saying you'd only play generalists because you don't want to give up any spells but let us who are interested in the potential there discuss the details without saying they're all "traps" and killing the conversation.

Getting an extra spell slot per level was big enough reason to play some of the specialist paths before they got a facelift. Mass haste isn't even enchantment any more btw which is more reason giving up transmutation sucks but illusionists are viable.

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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Vangrave » Fri Feb 11, 2022 7:16 pm

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:39 pm
All specialists are trap options, with cookies for those willing to embrace traps. I still hold that Conjuration specialist is biggest trap with not being able to extend self haste, Greater sanctuary, and time stop being loss and all your conjuration bonuses being offset by loss of better trans buffing

A transmutation specialist on the other hand, though boring compared to a flashy spellsword, can achieve plus 10 empower animal buffing on all their undead summons which translates to t more ab, ac and 5 more hp hd. (So sad for those not wanting Necromancy, find a summoning item i guess much like how conj specialist has too.. That's a personal choice too trans specialist can still use undead balance wise) while being an effective front line gish.

Trans specialist might be my favourite "trap" in terms of unique niche

Lets take a look at 27 tran specialist 3 monk (we can even 2 hand dex nodachi now). Not going super heavy into intelligence we should be able to reach 14 dex mod with around base wis 14 on a high dex race (i might be wrong)

10 base
14 dex
8 wis
6 tumble
2 dodge (mage armor and boots)
20 ema
4 haste
= 64 no expertise ac (maybe only 62 if wisdom is lower)

Lets not forget your undead will be better buffed than than any other caster. This is solid before we even touch the usefulness of tenser. Having high ac and being able to mass haste a party and or your super buffed undead is no laughing matter. Your IGMS doesn't need a save either.

Tenser AB:
25 bab (modified so true strike will be useless)
2 trans specialist
1. Two handing
4 unique nodachi
14 dex mod
3 Maybe? EWF (prob too feat tight for prowess

So like 46 to 49 (maybe 50 ab if making other sacrifices) ab but 4 of your attacks will be at max ab. You can actually do pve content with improved nexpertise on and be the front liner with 70+ ac (oh gosh if you get a bard in the Party for both you and your summons).
It's a cool concept, but sadly this is kind of trap within a trap. You're doing 25 damage per hit, less against something with essences. Your AC is nice, but the instant you get flatfooted, more than 30 of your AC melts away because you don't have uncanny dodge. Also, I guess you don't know this, but undead can be put to the strength buff cap by literally *any* arcane caster by using negative energy burst + zoo spells. Even the AC is too low for transmuter buffs to do something useful. So actually, Transmuter undead are the same to worse than regular undead (no room for necro focus).

If you really wanna go transmuter, strength is definitely the way.

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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Spriggan Bride » Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:15 pm

If I were to make one I’d give up on the idea of Tensers using strength or dex based melee wizard entirely.

Play a kobold or drow transmuter with necro-summons, high int to spam slow and flesh to stone, crazy high zoo buffs for you and pals and with enough dex to use Tensers and a nice crossbow to quickly clear content in PVE but fall back on standard wizard tactics in PVP

Big "if" of course as I have no intention of doing this but seems more salvageable than a "spellsword, but worse"

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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sat Feb 12, 2022 6:32 pm

Vangrave wrote:
Fri Feb 11, 2022 7:16 pm
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:39 pm
All specialists are trap options, with cookies for those willing to embrace traps. I still hold that Conjuration specialist is biggest trap with not being able to extend self haste, Greater sanctuary, and time stop being loss and all your conjuration bonuses being offset by loss of better trans buffing

A transmutation specialist on the other hand, though boring compared to a flashy spellsword, can achieve plus 10 empower animal buffing on all their undead summons which translates to t more ab, ac and 5 more hp hd. (So sad for those not wanting Necromancy, find a summoning item i guess much like how conj specialist has too.. That's a personal choice too trans specialist can still use undead balance wise) while being an effective front line gish.

Trans specialist might be my favourite "trap" in terms of unique niche

Lets take a look at 27 tran specialist 3 monk (we can even 2 hand dex nodachi now). Not going super heavy into intelligence we should be able to reach 14 dex mod with around base wis 14 on a high dex race (i might be wrong)

10 base
14 dex
8 wis
6 tumble
2 dodge (mage armor and boots)
20 ema
4 haste
= 64 no expertise ac (maybe only 62 if wisdom is lower)

Lets not forget your undead will be better buffed than than any other caster. This is solid before we even touch the usefulness of tenser. Having high ac and being able to mass haste a party and or your super buffed undead is no laughing matter. Your IGMS doesn't need a save either.

Tenser AB:
25 bab (modified so true strike will be useless)
2 trans specialist
1. Two handing
4 unique nodachi
14 dex mod
3 Maybe? EWF (prob too feat tight for prowess

So like 46 to 49 (maybe 50 ab if making other sacrifices) ab but 4 of your attacks will be at max ab. You can actually do pve content with improved nexpertise on and be the front liner with 70+ ac (oh gosh if you get a bard in the Party for both you and your summons).
It's a cool concept, but sadly this is kind of trap within a trap. You're doing 25 damage per hit, less against something with essences. Your AC is nice, but the instant you get flatfooted, more than 30 of your AC melts away because you don't have uncanny dodge. Also, I guess you don't know this, but undead can be put to the strength buff cap by literally *any* arcane caster by using negative energy burst + zoo spells. Even the AC is too low for transmuter buffs to do something useful. So actually, Transmuter undead are the same to worse than regular undead (no room for necro focus).

If you really wanna go transmuter, strength is definitely the way.
fair points.

not sure how you cant fit necro foci by drooping conj and being a wizard with bonus feats. your are right though that max buffing dex to 12 is useless ac wise, especially since you use mage armor anyways (though you can drag mage armor and shield potions on them for ac.) the plus 12 con on undead isnt useless either and again you should defintely have necro foci with this concept.

you are right that said concept is very vulnerable to flat flooting and what prob makes a better necromancer is an enchanter specialist with good hope. but for my amusement, I want to break down ac:

vampire count
30 ac
3 from foci
6 from dex buff (empowered trans specialist ESF cats grace plus 2 more dex from something like skleen)
5 from bones buff nat armor
2 from mage armor
4 from shield
50 ac
not sure if epic caster levels add more but mass haste will for 54 ac with what i mentioned so far. non counts be at 51

if a transmutation specialist can get a hgh tier summon via sequencer, they can have fun buffing that too.

i think your critique of building around tenser is on point and it prob would never be used in pvp. i think spriggan is right on how to best use trans specialist.

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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by godhand- » Tue Feb 15, 2022 4:21 am

i am currently playing a transmutation spec arcane archer
25/5aa

frankly i love it.

it gets all the perks of wizard and almost all the perks of an archer. it may not be the most optimal in either category but it is one of the most fun-to-play characters i have ever played..... Instead of standing around as the party hastebot just watching your summons/allies go to work, you get to add to the party.

AB in tensers is comparable to a ranger archer - DPS is definitely a little lower per hit but the lower damage is comfortably offset by having access to sanctuary timestop disjuncts and vampires - additionally my haste uptime is nearly permanent when compared to a regular archer whose blinding speed is limited to 3 out of 8 minutes.

with EMA + haste my AC is mid 50s, which goes pretty hard for an archer class if i'm honest.

Also, having a healthpool of 500 + 250 "hp" from premonition means i'm surprisingly tanky. i've stood toe-to-toe with WM builds before without my summons and had surprising close battles given that facetanking a WM would be an archers traditional kryptonite.
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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Wed Feb 16, 2022 5:33 am

godhand- wrote:
Tue Feb 15, 2022 4:21 am
i am currently playing a transmutation spec arcane archer
25/5aa

frankly i love it.

it gets all the perks of wizard and almost all the perks of an archer. it may not be the most optimal in either category but it is one of the most fun-to-play characters i have ever played..... Instead of standing around as the party hastebot just watching your summons/allies go to work, you get to add to the party.

AB in tensers is comparable to a ranger archer - DPS is definitely a little lower per hit but the lower damage is comfortably offset by having access to sanctuary timestop disjuncts and vampires - additionally my haste uptime is nearly permanent when compared to a regular archer whose blinding speed is limited to 3 out of 8 minutes.

with EMA + haste my AC is mid 50s, which goes pretty hard for an archer class if i'm honest.

Also, having a healthpool of 500 + 250 "hp" from premonition means i'm surprisingly tanky. i've stood toe-to-toe with WM builds before without my summons and had surprising close battles given that facetanking a WM would be an archers traditional kryptonite.
I def been focused more on melee on this one and didnt think of an AA transmutator.

Because bonus attacks scale down too, you get better more ab attacks.

Like pre epic bab of 10 = 0, -5; 0, -5, -10, - 15 apr with haste + tenser = 0, -5, -10; 0, -5, -10

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