I Made a Transmutation Specialist

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Paint
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I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Paint » Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:14 am

Introduction:
For starters, I'm aware I'm not the only one, because I've been nudged by a couple of people about the experience of running a transmutation wizard. Here's the bullet points about the conversation surrounding transmutation wizards:

-You're essentially forced to utilize undead if you want to have a decent 1-20 leveling experience solo.
-Your damage'll lag behind any martial class, which is fine, because you're a wizard, not a fighter.
-It's really fun despite this, and the cookies are great.
-Overall, it's sub-optimal, and you should consider playing a generalist instead, or if you really like the idea of a 1-9 SL caster that can fight too, play a cleric or a favored soul, whose spell options are more suited to that playstyle anyways. (Edit: Also spellswords, because duh.)

I'm by no means an expert when it comes to building characters. I will often take concessions for comfortability, I tend to favor roleplay options over peak performance, and I enjoy the experience of seeing how different classes feel to play. Take everything written here with a grain of salt.

Plotting:
When I planned my transmutation specialist wizard, I did a few tests in PGCC. Specifically, what I wanted to play was a wizard that used their magic to make themselves better. There are a couple of things you need to know about wizards that make plotting out what to do hard:

-Firstly, wizards do not get simple weapon proficiency -- they get their own wizard proficiency for a limited number of weapons such as dagger, crossbow, and staff. So picking a race that has racial proficiencies in a weapon that you want to build can make the overall leveling a little less arduous. Because I wanted to make a human wizard, I decided to build around the crossbow, essentially making an arcane -snrk- archer, but worse.

-Secondly, before you get your big gimmick that you get to cast every three minutes -- Tenser's Transformation -- you're going to have to rely on some pretty cheesy tactics to get anything done. You might not be able to play solo if you can't conjure zombies. Because I wanted to make a human wizard that doesn't dabble in animation, I had to get creative.

-Thirdly, wizards get a lot of bonus feats. Not as much as a fighter, but you'd be surprised how much four bonus feats can take the pressure off of you. Obviously, the spell foci I went with were abjuration and transmutation. I also took weapon focus(missile), rapid reload, blind-fight, and point-blank shot all before 20. There's an argument to be made that this is sub-optimal, but after I hit about level 16, I didn't even notice.

-Fourth, being a transmutation wizard means your zoobuffs are insane. Before 20, you get +7 zoobuffs without any roll, allowing you to reliably build your equipment around always having zoobuffs up. This not only affects your spells but every potion you drink, too. (Also you should keep that in mind for any other character with spell focus transmutation.) Essentially, if you keep a stock of zoobuff potions on you, you can buff your party, buff yourself with potions, dust your hands off, and roll hard. If you save yourself an owl's wisdom, you can make up for your terrible wisdom score pretty easily. This makes gearing a lot more forgivable, and my end-game gear is just a bunch of two-stat equipment with unisave.

-Finally, if you dump all of your ability points into intelligence instead of your primary attack stat -- my case, dex -- you'll leave about 5 AB on the table. Because of how Tenser's Transformation works, you -won't- be able to get that back. Hilariously, in my testing and on live, I've found out that my AB is 1 off the soft attack bonus cap, which I can easily make up for by sipping an aid potion. True-strike potions do nothing for me. Consider this a warning, too: If you're planning on trying to use your transmutation specialist in PVP, there are some targets you just won't be able to hit at all.

Essentially, I ended up settling on Wizard 26/Fighter 4 for weapon spec, epic weapon spec to make up for the damage I'd inevitably lag behind on. in my PGCC Testing, this was the best compromise I could make. All melee transmutationist wizard builds I tested left me feeling like I should just play spellsword instead. However, CL 28 against dispels sucks more than you'd think it would, and against any abjuration expert, you're probably going to want to have a strategy for a fast-kill that -doesn't- rely on tensers at all.

How it felt to play:

The first eight or so levels on Skal, my transmutationist wizard was forced to cooperate with other people! Oh no! How terrible! Roleplay! But whoever she cooperated with, she made significantly better. Because of how tight the numbers are on Skal, she could buff up a rogue, and they could essentially act as a rogue and fighter of the same level. +3-4 to all of your ability modifiers'll do that. When she -was- alone, which was more frequent than not as she was often out picking herbs and gathering other materials to make potions so I didn't have to carry healing kits, she relied primarily on her familiar to be a distraction. I went with a pseudodragon because it had high AC, plenty of HP, and comparatively to many of the other familiars, good survivability. When buffed with zoobuffs, it often had more HP than my wizard did, and comparable AC through level 12. I did have to buy barkskin potions from the hermit rather frequently, though.

After I could cast Tenser's Transformation, the nature of the experience started to change. Suddenly, I had a button I could click to deal with encounters I previously struggled with. The bonus HP alone was a pretty significant boon. I rushed to get an assembly template as fast as I could so that my damage output could keep up, knowing that after I obtained one, said damage output would more or less plateau until I got more APR at level 16, and then after level 16, continue to plateau until level 27. I gotta say, being able to shred anything I came across in Skal was pretty nice, though. She still couldn't solo much content, but everyone on Skal was so thirsty for writs anyways, it was hardly ever a problem, and when it was, I'd just go out hunting for herbs with -adventure on to supplement my EXP.

Additionally, I noticed something -odd-. Specifically, premonition started to feel like a wasted spell slot in -most- instances. Not all, but most. Because the temp HP from Tenser's Transformation was so reliable every three minutes and most things would die before they could -get through- that temp HP, premonition began to feel like an unnecessary buffer in almost every situation where I wasn't planning on lightning-shield tanking something. Against some bosses and some enemies I was worried could stun me for a bit, premonition was still a pretty vital buffer, however.

Mordenkainen's Sword took a lot of pressure off of me, and was surprisingly more useful than it had any right to be. After being buffed with zoobuffs, I more or less had a mordenkanien's sword that was comparable to an evocationist's before zoobuffs -- which was good enough to deal with most content as its heavy DR and spell immunity meant that I only needed to babysit it around difficult enemies. Its turns/level duration did mean that I had to push to finish things faster than not, but with extend spell, I could comfortably deal with most threats. This continued to be true even into orclands where the sword started to slow down. The damage output from my tenser's wizard was high enough that most packs of orcs would be dead before the sword was at any risk.

About four levels of my spellbook were near dedicated to haste, extended haste, mass haste, and extended mass haste. It. It was just really practical for me to stay in haste as often as possible, and groups really appreciate when you mass haste all the time.

Once I got Epic Mage Armor at 23, and then Planar Conduit at level 24, I had a pretty comfortable combination that would allow me to deal with most PVE content. Essentially, a lot of the damage I -didn't- have on my crossbow was on the summons now. Clearing content was still fast, but bosses were still dangerous. Because I didn't think this particular wizard would abandon her familiar for a fairy to deal with chests and traps, I never changed over to a fairy once her pseudodragon started to lose purpose. I CC'd lockpicking and disable device one point each.

Against harder content that's FOIG, I found encounters solo to slow down significantly. Because so much of her damage output depended on 17-20x2 crits, enemies that were harder to hit, she'd crit against less than average. Because my AB is essentially capped at 52, that meant against some bosses, attempting to attack them down was a futile exercise. (That's what you save things like IGMS and Incendiary cloud for.) Survivability began to become dependent on whether or not enemies wanted to pick a fight with my wizard specifically over her summons, as her AC caps out, satisfyingly, at 52 as well. (However, I will explain that in a bit.) Essentially, in PVE, this build really begins to struggle at the more difficult stuff. That's just the nature of building around a gimmick like Tenser's Transformation.

PVP:

Admittedly, despite designing this character to have a built-in reason to PVP on Arelith -- she has a whole thing and you can find that out in game too -- she hasn't gotten into any PVP. People keep saving her from herself >_>. Anyways, I have done some PVP in PGCC with her. There are some disappointing things that I learned, and some unsurprising things that I learned:

-Against anyone with EDR 3, her crossbow's damage output falls off sharply. EDR 3 and an energy buffer, and her damage is basically negligible. Barbarians, some palemasters, and earthkin defenders will probably win any given matchup against her.

-However, in PVP, tenser's transformation becomes an afterthought anyways. Because it takes at least 3 seconds to cast -- which is a bigger span of time than I'd like it to be in the middle of a fight -- and prevents you from casting spells after it's active, it's almost entirely ineffectual in PVP. By the time you've finished the transformation, someone's already chugged a healpot and shirked off all of the damage from the spells you just cast, and the crossbow damage -- while being 26-35 @ 5 APR under optimal circumstances -- isn't anything to laugh at for low HP builds, against anything with more than 300 HP, it's not going to be enough to do anything of worth.

-In most fights I won, tenser's transformation was never utilized.

-In PVP, I relied heavily on maximized darkbolts to chip away at the health of my opponent, wait for them to flounder, then mords, timestop, and max IGMS them to death. It worked more often than it really should against a variety of builds, but once the trick was discovered, it became a lot harder to do.

-I specifically pick up SF(Discipline), and my ending discipline is in the low 60s. Not enough to get me out of the danger zone against a variety of builds, but perhaps enough to help me avoid a knockdown every once and awhile and turn the tide.

-Essentially, the way transmutation specialists function in PVP is as a generalist wizard with less options, because your DCs are going to be garbage so you have to rely on spells that don't have DCs, or in which the DC doesn't matter.

How it felt to Roleplay:

Well. Tons of fun :P. If she ever writes a book on her life, and she might at some point because I like writing things, I'll slap it up in the IC Stories.

Additional Notes:

-Your AB is pretty gruesomely capped with tensers. A considerable amount more than a cleric's with divine favor. Let me explain: At level thirty, your BAB is 15 if you don't take any dips before 20. (And you really shouldn't.) Adding to that your primary attack stat, in my wizard's case, dex, that'd be 15+13, or 28. I took Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Focus, and Epic Prowess, for an additional +4. An ashwood crossbow gives you +4 AB. That puts her at 36 before Tenser's. Tenser's acts like Divine Power on Arelith, essentially adding onto your BAB to bring it up to a fighter's of a comparable level. At 30, that's +15. However, because we take 4 levels of fighter, that's only +13. HOWEVER specialist transmutationists get +1 AB per 10 wizard levels. So it's actually just +15 again. That puts your BAB at 51. So here's the thing. All of that counts towards your soft cap. And your weapon enhancement bonus counts towards your soft cap. Meaning you have +19 soft AB. Which means chugging a truestrike pot would net you ...+1 AB. Just chug a bless or aid potion instead and call it a day. 52 AB is pretty dang good and see below what I could've done to get it a little higher, but it does mean that anyone with roughly 69+ AC is going to be damn near impossible for you to hit. Ever. This is a consideration for both PVP and PVE. Soft AB cap is also an issue with spellswords, but spellswords have a -little- more wiggleroom thanks to how their EMA works.

-My ending DEX is 36 rather than 40. I invested some points into constitution and strength to make the build a little more comfortable. This means that I left 2 AB and 2 AC on the table. However, more importantly, I didn't take a tumble dip. So that 2 AC becomes 5 AC. I also didn't take armor skin. So that 5 AC becomes 7 AC. Additionally, with a large greensteel shield, which gets rid of most arcane spell failure, and a sling, you could have an additional 5 AC. So that 7 AC becomes 12 AC. Meaning, you -could-, if you wanted to be a little more uncomfortable and deal less damage, get up to at least 54 AB and 64 AC. That might prove to be a lot more of a cumbersome threat for some builds, and it might make you a little safer in PVE. However, since wizards don't have weapon proficiency with slings or proficiency with shields by default, you wouldn't see most of that AC until you took your dip.

-I had considered figuring out a strength transmutationist build since some of the hurdles with tensers' might be overcome with raw damage output. The temp HP + Premo + greater stoneskin + 2hand could be a pretty gruesome combo if implemented effectively, (56 AB is nothing to sneeze at!) and while it'd be easily breached, against anyone unprepared for it, you'd be in a pretty advantageous position.

-This build was -really- fun to level. The challenges I had to overcome felt unique to the setup, and that meant that even doing normal stuff felt pretty fresh. The roleplay aspect also meant that my transmutationist wizard had some interesting opportunities that some other characters might just not get.

-The main disappointment I had was that in some situations, it felt less like I was playing a transmuter and more like I was playing a wizard with less options. As a friend told me, 'man, this build is cool, but I'm going to be honest, it feels like the crossbow is an afterthought a lot of the time.'

-Wizards are powerful on their own. Being able cast spells like gsanc, incendiary cloud, timestop, IGMS, and mords with low investment is always going to be a consideration.

I'm aware that specialists are currently being looked at right now because of some recent changes. Additionally, I don't know everything there is to know about the meta on arelith, or even in NWN, but I hope my experience with the transmutation specialist can provide perspective for anyone who wants to take up the specialization as a wizard, and the team working on tweaking values.

I hope this helps and thank you for reading! If you disagree with anything I've written here feel free to voice your opinion, or if I got some of my math wrong, feel free to correct me.

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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Xerah » Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:27 pm

Thanks for the feedback. Your experience sounds like how we visioned it in our head as we were designing it. We never expected it to be the best but we were hoping that it was going to be fun.

One thing we did expect is that people would invest in leadership if they couldn't do necromancy.
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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Vangrave » Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:39 pm

I've been playing a Transmutation specialist since they were introduced, and your points hit a lot of the issues I've noticed, especially regarding the absolute AB cap wall you run straight into. I enjoyed (and still enjoy) the build, and since you covered a lot of the positives, I'll try to note the main issues I encountered.

My character is level 30 str focused Transmuter, so I have a few different perspectives, I think. I originally started as a Naginata wielding UBAB character (this build had roughly 52 AB), and when UBAB was nerfed I swapped to unarmed (49 AB) with ESF evo - I have evolved into Goku. Like Paint, I tried to sacrifice as little constitution as possible given the weaknesses with the Tenser's temp HP and my AB suffered greatly for it.

Since Paint wrote quite a bit, I'll try to keep my feedback a bit shorter.

- The elephant in the room is that the ideal Transmuter is a reanimator. Transmuter is an RP choice at its core, but if you want to actually play it with reasonable a power level, you more or less have to smother your RP in Reanimating Necromancy, which is obviously a HUGE problem for RPing as a Transmuter since reanimator ends up more or less wholly defining your RP on arelith. This is also an issue with Abjurer and Evoker. It's *easily* the worst part about Transmuter. There are no alternative viable summons aside from Mord's Sword, which blows through components and requires you to rush everywhere (hard to RP when your main summons will vanish if you stop to RP) or Planar conduit, which you can't unlock until mid epic levels, at which point your RP will already be pretty defined if you've been reanimating.

- I tried leadership early on, but found the companions on Skal weren't strong enough even with Transmuter buffs and eventually releveled out of it when Naginata was nerfed.

- You don't really get enough for giving up the conjuration spells you lose (this is true of abjurer and evoker as well, i think) - the Tenser's gimmick is fun, but you are losing a lot of extremely valuable spells while not actually being a particularly viable melee character. This is obviously much, much less of a problem if you use zombies/vampires as they supplement your damage and can be summoned more than 1x a day.

- You are required to stack either Dex or Str to reach a usable AB for endgame content as you can't make use of secondary sources of AB increase, which means both your constitution and intelligence suffer greatly, to the point you have a fully buffed HP in the low to mid 300s outside of Tenser's as a melee char if you focus on getting particularly good AB.

- I basically never used the infi cast flesh to stone. It’s cool and thematic, but given how you spend combat in tensers combined with the need to stack str or dex, you either can’t use it in combat and when you do it basically doesn’t work on anything and ends up being kinda useless. I shoot it at bosses sometimes to see if they’ll fail on a 1, but so far nothing has. Replacing it with a buff of some kind would probably be for the best.

- Your options for AC are extremely limited. Dex melee is not viable due to amazingly low damage, so you must go strength. But strength with armor isn’t viable since you’re casting tensers every minute or two, often in combat where you can’t remove your armor, so monk ends up being the main solution. Spellthief’s and greensteel small shield are an option, but new players definitely won’t know about those. Maybe make the tenser’s special ability ignore ASF? The ac value won’t be going much past low 50s in armor anyway.

- The Tenser's temp HP mitigates your low HP somewhat, but given that tenser's builds *require* a dip for proficiencies, they all more or less are required to take AD abjuration, and will still only generally be hitting 28 CL. The build is amazingly vulnerable to dispels - due to low AC you have to stack the various loot matrix Disc items even as a strength build, which means you have to lean on the large bonuses you get to zoo buffs. If something dispels bear's endurance and tenser's you will be sitting with your pants down at 200 max HP. AD abjuration 100% required.

- The main difference between Transmuter and spellsword is access summons and epic spells. One requires you to use reanimation (Planar conduit is instantly killed by a scroll WoF since it has no SR and is only 1x a day, so it's kind of a non-entity), while epic spells can't be used in Tenser's. This requires you to swap in and out of Tenser's, which is interesting, but also a massive, easily exploitable weakness given how casting tenser's will pop you out of improved expertise. Not sure how to solve the epic spell issue or even if it’s something that needs to be solved, but I will say it’s super clunky and hard to do if you don’t have zombie or planar summons.

- Removing the Epic Spells from being cast in Tenser's was probably necessary given what you could do with a high str 2h knockdown build, but it also made Tenser's nonviable in any serious PvP. Not everything has to be good in PvP, but it's just something to note.

- My actual PvP experiences were similar to Paint's in that the actual Tenser's part of the transmuter might as well have not existed due to absolutely anemic damage against DR/DI and essence'd characters combined with your lowish ac and inability to cast, which is particularly relevant given how heavily the class leans on its ability to use magic. A 2h knockdown focused build may potentially perform better, but given the need to cast both haste and Tenser's before combat, the relative ease of dispelling the build vs dispelling a mundane, the lack of Weapon Master, and the inability to benefit from team buffs I'm somewhat skeptical.

- Transmuter at endgame basically leans super heavily on Planar Conduit or Mummy Dust. Without these feats, it just doesn't function well in PvE at all. With one of these feats, it's strong in PvE, like a weaker version of Battlecleric or Favored Soul. I’m not sure how I feel about so much of the specialist’s power being tied up in those feats.

-----------

I focused a lot on the negatives in the experience since I think Paint did a good job emphasizing the positive aspects. I leveled the class to 30 and am still playing it, so I definitely enjoy it even if I had a lot to note about the issues with the class. My favorite thing about Transmuter/Tenser's was the ability to use weird weapons and later be an unarmed punching wizard. I also think it's quite cool that you can use it as an Archer Arcane style caster, which seems very thematic for elves. Both niches that didn't exist prior to the tenser's changes.

One last piece of feedback I wanted to provide was that Transmuter on Arelith is profoundly different from PnP Transmuter. Transmuter in PnP is relying heavily on stuff like Disintegrate and Transforming into various creatures, neither of which work well on Arelith at all for a normal Wizard, much less a Transmuter.

There's currently no reason for a Transmuter to be an int-focused caster given how few useful Transmutation spells with DC checks exist, particularly given how hamstrung a caster wizard is with the loss of Conjuration spells like Cloudkill, Tentacles, Acid Fog, Grease, Web, etc.

As such, it currently doesn't feel particularly different from a Spellsword RP-wise unless you're unarmed or using a bow - it's really the same niche. This may obviously change dramatically depending on what happens to Spellswords when they become a base class, particularly if they lose access to the regular wizard spellbook.
Last edited by Vangrave on Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Eyeliner » Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:37 pm

The lack of summoning options really holds back most specialist wizards at least by non-Anundor characters. Losing all the great spells in conjuration ought to be sacrifice enough if you take transmutation, evoking, etc. Losing most of the summons you really need for leveling too is just punishing.

What if lesser binding, greater planar binding and gate were made a different school like possibly abjuration (given their secondary effects it kind of makes sense)? Or just exempt them from the conjuration ban?

Another option could be to revamp golems and make them both more accessible (even just straight up summonable like any other creature, maybe with material components needed) and more useful at later levels.

I don't think relying on henchmen & leadership entirely is there yet honestly. I don't want to be down on a work in progress but it seems like more of a sometimes thing.

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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Vangrave » Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:58 pm

I touched on it, but another big problem with relying on leadership is it’s not a wizard class skill and you aren’t building cha on a tenser’s build. Even if you cross class leadership, your numbers are super low and require gearing to brush against the recruitment reqs.

Monk dip has leadership, but you’re taking the first three levels early enough that it doesn’t help so much with higher level npcs.
Last edited by Vangrave on Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:59 pm

Golems already require transmutation, that would be a great solution. If transmutation feats buffed golems like conjuration benefits summons.

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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Vangrave » Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:10 pm

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:59 pm
Golems already require transmutation, that would be a great solution. If transmutation feats buffed golems like conjuration benefits summons.
Even just making it so that they could be repaired and had ECL bonuses would go a long, long way.

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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Deryliss » Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:51 pm

Vangrave wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:58 pm
I touched on it, but another big problem with relying on leadership is it’s not a wizard class skill and you aren’t building cha on a tenser’s build. Even if you cross class leadership, your numbers are super low and require gearing to brush against the recruitment reqs.

Monk dip has leadership, but you’re taking the first three levels early enough that it doesn’t help so much with higher level npcs.
Before the skill revamp, I used to dip Loremaster on my wizards to get the leadership train going. A 3 level dip early on just to get access to basic henchmen, then a 1 level pickup just before epics to reach Flaming Fist levels of leadership (with some gear/buffs), and a final one at 30 to fill out skills.

With the skill revamp Loremaster lost Leadership, which really put a dent in that sort of plan. :(
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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Xerah » Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:11 pm

There is a long term plan to redo golems, which was also something that would be a big help to Transmuters. Someone just needs to do it.

I guess another options is making the Sword scale a bit more (and changing to Hr/L for transmuters)
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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Paint » Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:38 am

Hey, wow. I'm surprised with the number of responses this got. I think to summarize something, I can confirm that undead was a very tempting option for me -- especially given I was on Skal. If my character didn't have some ingrained opposition to undead because of her grudge with some Thayan practices, she might've conjured some undead herself. And at a certain point when it comes to RP, you'd indeed be an animator rather than a transmuter by anyone else's reckoning even if that wasn't your intent. That's sort of a point that can be repeated all day, though, and since I managed to make it work without undead, clearly there's space for it. Your mileage on that might vary with a Brog start or even a Cordor start, since I've found it a little more cumbersome to hook up with new adventurers in those areas.

Essentially, Skal's claustrophobic we-must-all-work-together environment was what allowed my character to flourish, since the first few levels were a nightmare. I did grind some content that was below her level a couple of times and found that I could do it solo, especially after I got tensers and haste. Additionally, because I decided to go with herbalism, I relied on those fire beetle belly surprises a little, too, which helped bridge the gap between relying on my familiar and getting mordenkainen's sword.

As for leadership, I had considered it an option, and since you can get a nice +4 buff to your CHA whenever you want, it seemed like a viable option, but it didn't work for my specific build, since taking my fighter dip early would've locked me out of some of the epic feats I wanted to take.

Finally, as far as golems go, I uh, looked at the stats on the wiki and decided that it'd be more of a hassle to try to play with golems than not and eventually decided that I'd just eat my oats and rely on my lovable helmed horror spell component furnace. That's not to say there isn't merit in the mechanic, I just didn't feel like it fit me.

I don't want to give any suggestions, because that wasn't really the point here. I just wanted to give people a bit of a benchmark on what it feels like to play and what anyone playing will get themselves into. And obviously, there's more than one way to build the class, and a melee transmuter specialist is going to feel a -lot- different. Honestly, even if it's sub-optimal and falls off at end-game content, it is a -really- fun and unique experience both to roleplay and to adventure with, and there were some challenges that I overcame with my transmuter wizard easily that I really struggled with on other characters of similar level.

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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Kuma » Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:34 am

Xerah wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:11 pm
I guess another options is making the Sword scale a bit more (and changing to Hr/L for transmuters)
didnt mordsword get made evo as a headpat for TFs?

honestly just making it hours/level generally wouldn't be unpleasant

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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by MRFTW » Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:25 pm

Great post.

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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Paint » Thu Dec 30, 2021 9:17 pm

Bumping this thread because of a discussion that occurred in the Arelith Discord server. It's been mentioned by us that without relying on necromancy for animation, specialists that don't have access to conjuration are dead in the water and it's a big point of frustration.

(Read above about why this is a big point of frustration, but it is essentially, if you're playing a wizard that specializes in a particular school, and you animate undead, as far as the RP goes, you're not a wizard who specializes in a particular school -- you're an animator. The RP is just heavily slanted that way because of how big of a choice animating undead is. That's not a bad thing. I think undead being a serious thing is serious. I just think that being forced to rely on undead essentially ruins the roleplay of being a specialist -- probably the biggest reason to intentionally limit yourself right now.)

One solution to this is the epic spell planar conduit. Since this spell hasn't been patched to not work with wizards who are barred from conjuration since septembeer when this post was made, where Planar Conduit is discussed as a considerable amount of your power in PVE -- and PVP to some extent -- as a transmutation specialist and there wasn't much protestation on that point, I figured it was something that nobody really minded.

But it is weird, right? Planar Conduit is pretty heavily in the conjuration camp -- your barred school as a transmutation specialist. There are ways to flavor it for roleplay I'm sure, and it -also- brings into question Epic Mage Armor. Without Planar Conduit, you're stuck with Mummy Dust,(Again, see above) and without EMA, Transmutation Specialist is 100% dead in the water.

So I guess the big question is, are these spells working on wizards barred from the conjuration spell school intentional? If not, are they considered exploits? Should they be? And finally, what are some ways that specialist wizards who are barred from these spells can make up for the loss of AC and power that they'd be dealing with if they become barred from these spells?

Before anyone chimes in, I heartily encourage you to read the discourse on transmutation wizards posted above; How they struggle, what they struggle with, and what niche they fill, as well as whether or not you'd play these specialists.

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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Eyeliner » Thu Dec 30, 2021 9:34 pm

Said it before but I think summon I-IX spells ought to be whitelisted for specialists who have conjuration blocked. It would be purely for quality of life while leveling non-evil wizards as they'd almost certainly have the weaker version from no conjuration focuses and this wouldn't affect PVP at all. They'd still be missing out on the great conjuration spells, gate etc so they'd still feel the blocked school.

Giving "blocked" schools the Shadow Mage treatment might also be an option so specialists could still use utility spells but the DCs would be so weak the offensive spells are all but worthless.

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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Fri Dec 31, 2021 6:28 am

transmutation specialist is extremely playable compared to conjuration specialist.

You choose to not use undead, it is still a sneaky option when not in a party. Being able to be a melee person while getting very solid buffs on all your undead ummons at the same time makes you clear content very well.

meanwhile a conjuration specialist lacks haste (and mass haste), time stop, and greater sanctuary which are extremely must have tools for a mage (the movement speed, the two spells per round instead of 3 autoquicken feats, and time stop + GSF have very obvious pvp needs).

You can still play a generalist and rp as someone specializing in transmutation if not wanting to use undead, but the kit works extremely well if you use undead.

I still say conjuration specialist is by several miles the worst specialist (necromancer specialist would be better if you are just trying to get really beefy summons and then still keep timestop, haste, Greater sanctuary)

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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Fri Dec 31, 2021 6:29 am

Eyeliner wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 9:34 pm
Said it before but I think summon I-IX spells ought to be whitelisted for specialists who have conjuration blocked. It would be purely for quality of life while leveling non-evil wizards as they'd almost certainly have the weaker version from no conjuration focuses and this wouldn't affect PVP at all. They'd still be missing out on the great conjuration spells, gate etc so they'd still feel the blocked school.

Giving "blocked" schools the Shadow Mage treatment might also be an option so specialists could still use utility spells but the DCs would be so weak the offensive spells are all but worthless.
the lost of conjuration summons, when undead is still an option is nothing compare to the lost of transmutation.

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Skarain
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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Skarain » Fri Dec 31, 2021 9:23 am

Transmutation governs Golem Creation.

Perhaps the solution is in Golem System improvements?

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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Void » Fri Dec 31, 2021 10:37 am

Skarain wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 9:23 am
Transmutation governs Golem Creation.

Perhaps the solution is in Golem System improvements?
That would be, frankly, the best approach.

Golems are not very powerful right now, basically you open them up at 15, and by 20 they're at the point where they can be destroyed. If transmuters had golem boosts, that would be a much better idea than waiving spell restrictions for them because reasons.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Fri Dec 31, 2021 5:16 pm

Void wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 10:37 am
Skarain wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 9:23 am
Transmutation governs Golem Creation.

Perhaps the solution is in Golem System improvements?
That would be, frankly, the best approach.

Golems are not very powerful right now, basically you open them up at 15, and by 20 they're at the point where they can be destroyed. If transmuters had golem boosts, that would be a much better idea than waiving spell restrictions for them because reasons.
Some kind of summon feature that uses your golem as the base to build off so that ot uses the summon slot instead of henchmen slot so we dont have boosted golems + undead summons + tenser melee mage clearin content. Though i suppose a druid does this anyways.

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Party in the forest at midnight
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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Fri Dec 31, 2021 5:21 pm

Giving transmuters some sort of enhanced golem thing would be pretty cool. But that'd take time to make/balance. Ideally there would be something available for low levels to use, once Shelgarn's Persistent Blade stops being effective. Until something is made, I agree that it would be best to unlock summon creature for transmuters.

While I get that not every build is going to be as viable as others, and some things are make-at-your-own-risk, it would be nice if it could function in a basic way. Some specialists give up a whole lot more than they get back in return. And I don't really like the idea that they are "trap" options.

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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Void » Fri Dec 31, 2021 5:34 pm

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 5:21 pm
Ideally there would be something available for low levels to use,
Now just wait a minute. They do have "something". Familiars. There are forms perfectly capable of combat. And they grow in power along with their master.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Fri Dec 31, 2021 7:46 pm

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 5:21 pm
Giving transmuters some sort of enhanced golem thing would be pretty cool. But that'd take time to make/balance. Ideally there would be something available for low levels to use, once Shelgarn's Persistent Blade stops being effective. Until something is made, I agree that it would be best to unlock summon creature for transmuters.

While I get that not every build is going to be as viable as others, and some things are make-at-your-own-risk, it would be nice if it could function in a basic way. Some specialists give up a whole lot more than they get back in return. And I don't really like the idea that they are "trap" options.
Weve had a long standing/advice to/from the community to never play specialists, play sorcerors or generalists (or illusion specialist and rp whatever specialist you want since in actaul dnd you choose you banned schools). Devs kindly gave some fun cookies, but doesn't mwan they will receive the full attention to ve non traps.

Transmutation isn't a trap, be a surfacer specialist is a trap that you put upon yourself.

If we do waive spell exceptions, we need to look as conjuration specialist before any other. Its only rp that prevents you from veing functional in solo pve. Meanwhile conjuration specialist gives up the three holy things about wizard/sorc caster haste/mass haste, time stop, and greater sanctuary. (Im not including any if the other QoL.things like basic zoo buffs for yourself and party)

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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Paint » Fri Dec 31, 2021 8:21 pm

Void wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 5:34 pm
Now just wait a minute. They do have "something". Familiars. There are forms perfectly capable of combat. And they grow in power along with their master.
Familiars are actually a pretty decent low-level solution for casters who don't have access to summon creature, yeah. They don't scale well past level 13,(Potions, buffs, mage armor, etc usually caps your familiar's AC out around 30-35 and that just is -not- good enough, regardless of their AB or HP.) but by then, you'll have mord's sword which'll probably get you to about 18. Transmutation specialists have a bit of an advantage over evo and abjuration specialists in this regard, though. By level 18, the CD on your tenser's transformation is starting to be more forgiving -- you're in tenser's more often than you are out of it. This means you're using spells less, have an HP buffer that makes it easier to sustain between fights, and can generally keep pace with whatever it is you're fighting. Mord's sword remains effective here until about level 23, when you really need something stronger if you want to do content.

True Flames also have a considerable advantage here for the same reason. Being stuck to Evo sucks, but there's a big upshot to infinicast. That is, if you're willing to pay for the potions and healing kits for your familiars and/or mord's sword, you can make good use of them for a -long time- thanks to infini-cast spells like empowered darkbolt. You don't need your companions to do any damage -- you just need them to survive long enough for your opening volley. I still think that TFs fall off in epics because they lack access to a good summon, though. That being said, there -are- some good late-end leadership companions who are perfect companions to sorcerers, and wouldn't you know it? Sorcerers have leadership as a class skill.
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 7:46 pm
Transmutation isn't a trap, be a surfacer specialist is a trap that you put upon yourself.
See above for why this isn't the entire picture, but I don't like the idea of insisting that people just shouldn't do these things. Especially when effort has clearly been made to make them options that would be fun and appealing for people to play. I don't think anyone's asking for specialists to be the best of the best. All I really want is for these options to be fun and attractive enough that making these tradeoffs for the roleplay is worth it. Even at full pelt, a transmutation specialist in the underdark is worse off than a generalist wizard.

Additionally, when it comes to conjuration specialists, they have means of accessing both haste and timestop now through UMD items, meaning the only thing they really miss out on is gsanc. You can buff yourself and your familiars and companions with potions for zoobuffs, barkskin, etc, so conjuration specialists have access to a lot of the things they lack in Q.O.L. aside from Haste. Which -is- a big loss, but iirc, they get autohaste on their summons after ESF: Conj anyways.

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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by Eyeliner » Fri Dec 31, 2021 9:09 pm

It's not a competition to see who has it worse, I wish there wasn't so much needless one-upping on the forum. Conjuration and transmuter/abjurer/evoker wizards could all use a second look.

Anyway necromancy isn't the answer for good characters who want to be consistent with RP, whitelisting summon creature would be a pretty simple solution that's just for quality of life for transmuters, evokers and abjurers. I do think the blocked spell schools could be looked at in general on specialists and made significantly weaker instead of banned entirely. Even opening up the use of scrolls so they couldn't cast the banned spells but could pay to use them might be a game changer (and in most cases would only be good for summons and buffs, as scroll DCs make most offensive spells useless).

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Re: I Made a Transmutation Specialist

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Fri Dec 31, 2021 9:42 pm

Paint wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 8:21 pm
Void wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 5:34 pm
Now just wait a minute. They do have "something". Familiars. There are forms perfectly capable of combat. And they grow in power along with their master.
Familiars are actually a pretty decent low-level solution for casters who don't have access to summon creature, yeah. They don't scale well past level 13,(Potions, buffs, mage armor, etc usually caps your familiar's AC out around 30-35 and that just is -not- good enough, regardless of their AB or HP.) but by then, you'll have mord's sword which'll probably get you to about 18. Transmutation specialists have a bit of an advantage over evo and abjuration specialists in this regard, though. By level 18, the CD on your tenser's transformation is starting to be more forgiving -- you're in tenser's more often than you are out of it. This means you're using spells less, have an HP buffer that makes it easier to sustain between fights, and can generally keep pace with whatever it is you're fighting. Mord's sword remains effective here until about level 23, when you really need something stronger if you want to do content.

True Flames also have a considerable advantage here for the same reason. Being stuck to Evo sucks, but there's a big upshot to infinicast. That is, if you're willing to pay for the potions and healing kits for your familiars and/or mord's sword, you can make good use of them for a -long time- thanks to infini-cast spells like empowered darkbolt. You don't need your companions to do any damage -- you just need them to survive long enough for your opening volley. I still think that TFs fall off in epics because they lack access to a good summon, though. That being said, there -are- some good late-end leadership companions who are perfect companions to sorcerers, and wouldn't you know it? Sorcerers have leadership as a class skill.
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 7:46 pm
Transmutation isn't a trap, be a surfacer specialist is a trap that you put upon yourself.
See above for why this isn't the entire picture, but I don't like the idea of insisting that people just shouldn't do these things. Especially when effort has clearly been made to make them options that would be fun and appealing for people to play. I don't think anyone's asking for specialists to be the best of the best. All I really want is for these options to be fun and attractive enough that making these tradeoffs for the roleplay is worth it. Even at full pelt, a transmutation specialist in the underdark is worse off than a generalist wizard.

Additionally, when it comes to conjuration specialists, they have means of accessing both haste and timestop now through UMD items, meaning the only thing they really miss out on is gsanc. You can buff yourself and your familiars and companions with potions for zoobuffs, barkskin, etc, so conjuration specialists have access to a lot of the things they lack in Q.O.L. aside from Haste. Which -is- a big loss, but iirc, they get autohaste on their summons after ESF: Conj anyways.
Similar items exist for summons too, ones that don't require umd too and your standard wizard builds dont have umd. Like for rp purpsoes you willfully avoided animating, for rp purposes i chose 30 wizard or a dip without umd.

Im not sure itrms with spells bypass hardcodded baned schools, but if they do, transmutation also has items that access some pretty good summons at diffrrnt level tiers too and they dont need umd. Hasted summons is nice but it doesn't allow one to move twice 2 spells per round

*edit*



Also shouldn't plan around changing loot matrix items

I am all for qol for all specialists tbh, I just wouldnt have your hopes up and feel the lift summon restriction is too generous and not suitable for a quick fix.

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