The Wizard Experience

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

User avatar
Aren
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 687
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:27 pm
Location: GMT+1

Re: The Wizard Experience

Post by Aren » Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:01 pm

Archmage PRC when?

(:

Sorry, I’ll see myself out.

".. the other number that isn't 18." - Jack Oat
".. but- someone is still pumping the brakes sometimes, right? ...right?" - Batcountry


Xerah
Posts: 2037
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: The Wizard Experience

Post by Xerah » Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:53 pm

I'd really like to expend the spells to actually do something at high levels. This does mean that there would be a lot of script edits and balances though to get there. But it's something I'm considering.

Another thing I'm considering is expanding the signature spell system for generalist wizards. In this system, they'd have to collect resources and craft a component that would give them an extra powerful version of a spell on the same 3min timer as specialist wizards get theirs. They could then collect a bunch and change them on a cooldown (once a week or so) that relates to if they ESF in those schools.

My time is pretty limited right now, but looking at this (and also something with making golems more useful) is what's been on my mind.

All that said, I'm certainly one of the weird ones in that I don't mind the current wizard experience.
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

Griefmaker
Posts: 884
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:33 pm
Location: California

Re: The Wizard Experience

Post by Griefmaker » Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:26 pm

Xerah wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:53 pm

All that said, I'm certainly one of the weird ones in that I don't mind the current wizard experience.
To be honest, I don't mind the current wizard experience right now either. I am having a blast with mine! I will admit though that I focused my build on fun tools and things like enchanting all gear with +1 int and +level 3 spell slot for as many spells to fling as possible at the expense of skills and so on...so I know that PvP wise, it is definitely not ideal.

But all of the fun tools? It is probably one of the most fun classes on Arelith because of that. And the RP potential? Unlimited!

malcolm_mountainslayer
Posts: 1043
Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 5:08 am

Re: The Wizard Experience

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:56 pm

Bunnysmack wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:57 pm
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:10 pm
DCs spell discussion feels like a dead horse being beaten.

We have partial save spells for a reason and we prob can use more, but instant win spells should always be easily counterable. In actual group pvp shadow mages casting weird are still wipong out a couple characters in the first round.

Shadowmages now can still cast maxizmised IGMS too; have a broad tool bucket.

This whole "a fighter can fish for 20 fives times" is a ridiculous comparison as no single attack instantly kills and a mage not going for instant wins can actually attempt 4 debilitating aoe saves in a single round via two thunderclaps (hits all three saves but being deafened isnt so bad) while finding what weak saves might vebout there for best follow up tactic (which might not be dc based if everything out there is strong)

In head on pvp yeah sorceror is better but wizard having more spell foci skills helps in the previously mentioned "find the chink kn the armor". Like you can easily afford evo spell foci for hell.ball plus other wanted foci like conj/trans/illusion/necro/etc.
I agree with most of the points made in this statement but take some issues with the overall conclusions.

A weapon master with a scimitar or falchion has a 10-20 crit range on a X3 multiplier while forcing max rolls on the base weapon dice. Considering that a "flurry" all happens at the same time, and a mage only has d4 hit dice, that "single attack" could very well kill a mage outright, and almost certainly do so with a full round of attacks. Meanwhile, the mage has to HOPE they can land some CC that will buy enough time to stop that from happening (all why enduring attacks of such high damage that they will autofail concentration checks). It's not impossible for the mage to win, but it's a very slanted fight in favor of the attacker. Some other martials, like Barbarian or Ranger, are almost as dangerous to a mage in terms of how quickly their DPS will end a mage's life, and additionally have some built in CC avoiding abilities besides.

I would say instant win spells should be counterable. I argue that "easily counterable" is a stretch in some cases. A CL 30 clarity wand/potion/scroll is still REALLY hard to remove as is, ditto for Death Ward, and both can't be breached. I agree the DC issue is very difficult to balance, however, and slight shifts can make control/kill spells go from "not worth slotting" to "incredibly OP." More spells that can reliably lower target saves would be good, and this time don't make it so the target needs to fail a save for it to do anything (It defeats the purpose, because if a failed save is what's needed either way, then why not just slot a control/kill spell instead?). This means it will take multiple spells in order to reliably land the DC spells that are so feared, and the debuff is easily countered by a simple lesser restoration, so it's not like the addition of these spells would be an unstoppable meta shift.

Another useful idea would be to create more repeatable abilities, outside of the spellbook, that are worth using offensively as backups at level 30. I presume the inifini spells from GSF were made to help with the fact that wizards run out of spells easily and it's 1. Not at all fun to play that, and 2. is a very frustrating result for a class who (more than any other class) has ALL of their bonuses focused toward spellcasting, to the detriment of nearly everything else on their equipment and character sheets. I'm not saying they should have many repeatable/cooldown spells, or the spells should be as strong as anything above 5th level, or that this boon should make them "warlock but better", but just having something worth using at level 30 would be nice. Color spray and Blind/Deaf were a decent start, the other offensive infini-spells...not so much.

All of what I said here should include sorcerers. Outside of Div-dip sorcs (and I just really dislike div dip game balance in general), the class is a bit in need of assistance as well, for similar reasons, even if their style of play differs somewhat.

As a side note: While Great Thunderclap is situationally quite good, the debilitating results are all single-round effects. Considering the limited number of level 7 slots available, it's a mixed bag as to how helpful it will be to spend that slot, and a half-round action (full round if not hasted), in order to MAYBE disable an opponent for one round.
Ki strike has funny interactions with crits, I forget what they are but I just remember never bothering to use ki strike for max base weapon damage.

Your points overall are worth noting for the exceptions of what I am saying. I think there is a bit of a rock papers siccors going on with the martial vs caster vs palemaster (for better or for worse) as the palemaster's kit sacrifices a few things for really good gains against martial characters, but gain minimal (they get an immunity still) defenses for what the sacrifice against another caster.

That being said, I don't think the arcane side of things couldn't use some fun tweaking. We have room for more partial save spells, flavour for generalists and specialists (and maybe even non div dip sorcerors).

Deryliss
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:33 pm

Re: The Wizard Experience

Post by Deryliss » Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:24 pm

Interesting thread, and I'm very much hoping it results in *something*. I love me some wizards, but with how high-magic Arelith is they feel incredibly unspecial even in the role of buff providers, and under the shadow of the cleric domain rework that's only become more true.

Two things I would bring for consideration:

-Expanding the infinicast system. This could be either a) better scaling with level on the existing spells and shuffling the spells around a bit (some of them are quite bad), or b) adding a new set of infinicast spells with ESF at epics (maybe level 5 or 6 spells?), possibly even both.

-I don't think we should touch DC spells directly. Already mentioned, because it would require some poor staffer to check spell scripts one by one, and also because it would very rapidly upset the carefully stacked toothpick pyramid that is pvp saving throws in arelith. Additional concern: Any direct buffs to spell DCs would have catastrophic effects when compounded by infinicasters like trueflames and warlocks.
My thoughts around this would be some class feature specifically for the vancian casters (wizard, sorc) that either reduces the disappointment of failed saves (such as an extra effect that kicks in if saving throws are made), or perhaps less controversially some way to lessen the sting of a wasted spell slot (having one of your three-a-day spell-component-eating spells fully resisted is kinda ouch).

It's a bit strange looking at New Warlock and seeing so much of it feel like 'wizard, but better, with discipline, also charisma-based and with optional Dark Blessing without dip'.
Marijani, Priestess of Istishia

Eyeliner
Posts: 479
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:27 am

Re: The Wizard Experience

Post by Eyeliner » Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:52 pm

Just throwing this out there but what if the DC on spells wizards cast from wands was increased? Instead of giving them more infinicast spells, maybe if they could use wands with a DC based on their intelligence so it would be like they were cast from their spellbook? Makes sense for them to be a master of enchanted items and maybe this could be gated behind a feat they would have to take.

Scrolls get a lot more powerful so I don't know if the same would apply but there may be a way to raise the effectiveness of high level scrolls with offensive or crowd control spells in a wizard's hands.

Rowlind Salem
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:31 pm

Re: The Wizard Experience

Post by Rowlind Salem » Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:47 pm

Bunnysmack wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:34 pm
I have a list of potential ideas to assist the discrepancy...But this isn't the suggestion box so I'm hesitating to list them here, for fear of annoying the staff. :shock:

I will say that looking at divine grace/dark blessing will be a good start. A class dip of three or four levels should not give you +9 or +10 to all saves, which doesn't even count against the +20 bonus saves cap.

This alone is one of the largest contributing problems. Having unassailable saves should be something that requires a STEEP investment, but those two feats are available at shockingly early class levels for bonuses that would make even epic feats feel insecure about.

good call. maybe if HIPS on SD got pushed to an 11 level investment from 5, perhaps the same approach should be taken to div dips

Rowlind Salem
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:31 pm

Re: The Wizard Experience

Post by Rowlind Salem » Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:54 pm

let pure wizards/sorcerers get to lvl 40 and no one else.

User avatar
Bunnysmack
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 358
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:42 am
Location: UTC-7

Re: The Wizard Experience

Post by Bunnysmack » Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:04 pm

One thing that -XXX- has touched on, but is getting largely overlooked in this conversation, is the other problem with mages, and wizards in particular: the class "chassis".

Least spell slots/uses per day of any caster primary (except for warlock, but they can't complain with their wide range of infini-spells/abilities). On top of that, d4 hit dice; that's right, more fragile than even a commoner. On top of that, can't wear armor (both due to lacking ANY armor/shield proficiency, and because ASF makes everything but spell-thief's armor awful to use barring some steep feat investment). Absolutely the worst weapon proficiencies of any class, with less options than even SIMPLE. And, lastly, the worst class skill selection in the game (doesn't even get leadership, much less spot/listen/tumble/appraise/search/hide/MS/discipline/etc.).

Especially now that we have (1) clerics have an enormously improved spell list via their new domains, (2) we have spontaneous divine casters that can easily select most/all of their ideal spell picks, and (3) more and more people are comfortably able to reach lore 80 via loremaster and/or bard; The mindset of mages being good at spellcasting but super fragile doesn't even feel like the first qualifier applies anymore. They are average at spellcasting, compared to the various ways other casters have evolved, and how mundanes are more and more regularly using 9th level scrolls.

This gets ESPECIALLY aggravating with the new grimoires, which, by the way, feels like a slap in the face of mages. 35 soft UMD = spellcasting that takes wizards 17 class levels and sorcerers 18 class levels. If ANY non-scroll item allows castings of Mordekainen's Disjunction and/or Time Stop, it should be FAR more rare, and it should have only 1 charge. Why even play wizard or build for 80 lore anymore when circle-grinding PvE libraries gives you the best spells anyway, at far easier use in the field (the animation for these books is FAST).

I feel that both wizards and sorcerers either need more spells per day (maybe give sorc more spell picks too), or the hit dice need to be raised to d6 with ASF being less steep and/or more class skills. The argument of "wizards are bad at non-magic things because they focus all their life into magic" makes a lot less sense when other classes/builds are quite clearly of around equivalent efficacy in magic WITHOUT all/most of the detriments laid out above.
"You're insufferable..."
"That's not true! I can totally be suffered!"

Curve
Posts: 549
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:47 am

Re: The Wizard Experience

Post by Curve » Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:10 pm

I don’t mean to poopoo on anyone’s work nor derail the thread too much, but the new books are kind of spitting in the eye of the umd change, undermine heavy lore investment and drastically alter pvp meta without any benefit that I can see. I’d really be interested in hearing the reasons they were put into the server. My heart hopes it’s a better one than “seemed cool, might delete later”

SCP-079
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:28 pm

Re: The Wizard Experience

Post by SCP-079 » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:11 am

Regarding the new grimoires. They seem to undermine wizards quite a lot. Maybe a solution would be to heavily increase their UMD (so that it is in line with scrolls), but allow wizards to use them without any further investment (turning those books into better versions of the Minor [Spellschool] Studies)
Hunting and hoarding magical tomes just seems like a fun wizard thing.

Given clerics and their domains... How about giving specialist wizards access to ALL (or at least select non-arcane) spells of their chosen school? It feels a bit weird that a dedicated necromancer cannot cast Harm. Maybe also a bonus to their schools DC (that does not stack with Shadowmage), given the Shadowmage Path does just that to not one but three schools while not sacrificing an entire school.

Personally, I'd prefer stronger protective spells to raising wizard's HP or giving them mundane armor with decreased ASF - then they'd end up arcane clerics of sorts...

User avatar
Ork
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: The Wizard Experience

Post by Ork » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:09 pm

UMD investment requires a class expense. Again, the arguments of loremaggedon rear their heads. Fellas, you don't lose anything if people invest in UMD. In fact, your opposition is weaker because they took a UMD dip.

Curve
Posts: 549
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:47 am

Re: The Wizard Experience

Post by Curve » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:22 pm

Ork wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:09 pm
UMD investment requires a class expense. Again, the arguments of loremaggedon rear their heads. Fellas, you don't lose anything if people invest in UMD. In fact, your opposition is weaker because they took a UMD dip.
Are you saying that these books serve as some sort of a pseudo-UMD tax? Making a UMD dip alluring and dissuading the ultra focused builds we are seeing with mid 50s ab and so on? Or are you just talking about the questionable effectiveness of the lore/umd change? I don’t actually understand the point you are making.

Deryliss
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:33 pm

Re: The Wizard Experience

Post by Deryliss » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:34 pm

Ork wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:09 pm
UMD investment requires a class expense. Again, the arguments of loremaggedon rear their heads. Fellas, you don't lose anything if people invest in UMD. In fact, your opposition is weaker because they took a UMD dip.
Can you imagine a future hellscape where people might be dipping, I don't know, 3 levels of bard at the end of every build to pick up UMD? :p
Marijani, Priestess of Istishia

Griefmaker
Posts: 884
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:33 pm
Location: California

Re: The Wizard Experience

Post by Griefmaker » Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:50 pm

Perhaps the idea of the wizard should shift a bit. They cannot match other classes in sheer firepower, so why not focus on their oft mentioned strength: versatility.

I have been playing a wizard lately and decided for grins to make a golem. Yes, they are far from ideal and have a lot of drawbacks, most especially that if they are destroyed, they are gone. And that gave me an idea for helping wizards to stand out on their own: golemcrafting. Make it a wizard only skill with multiple levels of power requiring minimum levels of wizard to create and use the golems. After all, nothing screams wizard like the cool toys and artifacts and stuff wizards can make because they are bloody geniuses.

But unlike the golems now, have various types of golems that can be used for different purposes depending on what the wizard wants or needs at the time.

Sorry, I know the suggestion box is closed so if reading suggestions is offensive, please read no further! And the following are just thoughts, perhaps something to spark inspiration in a dev for the future.

********************************************************************************************
Golemcrafting -- minimum wizard level 5. These would be the smallest and weakest of golems, but also require the least resources and talent to create and use.

Greater Golemcrafting -- minimum wizard level 15. These would be the next set of golems and use the lesser as the base chassis and include whatever other resources and talent to create and use.

Epic Golemcrafting -- minimum wizard level 25. Strongest line of golems and use the greater golems and additional resources and talent to create and use.
********************************************************************************************

One thing that we all know is that the current types of golems really are not that useful. But in the spirit of wizards being the kings of versatility, my thoughts were making different "lines" of golems. So when you pulled them out, they could do different things based on the needs of the wizard/party at the time. Note that the genius wizard was inspired by bards and clerics and all in their ideas for more support-style of golems.

Combat Golems -- basically like what we have now. Some could be more useful against physical, some magical, etc. These basically are another potentially powerful henchmen a wizard could pull out when in need of more "oomph", with the the caveat of all golems that if destroyed...it is gone! Other ideas are ranged golems, maybe artillery golems who spew forth something like magic missile or other small spells at foes, things like that.

Defensive/Support Golems -- These golems have gigantic auras which can affect anyone in the party and perhaps last several rounds or a turn if someone steps out of the aura. One line of golems could do something like small increases in dodge ac (+1, +2, +3 per tier perhaps). Another could perhaps small increases in uni-saves. Another could give elemental resistances. Another could give small %s of concealment. Maybe others could offer small boosts to AB. Or maybe even additional temp. damage to weapons. Etc.

Healing Golems -- This line could offer something like golems give small regen bonuses. Maybe include a small temp hp buff. Or perhaps a low chance to cure diseases/poison or maybe boost saves against them, or something like that.

Utility Golems -- These could include lines like the "pack mule" who basically buffs the caster's carry weight while out (after all, what wizard worth his salt would haul a bunch of heavy crap when they can build a golem to do it!), or lines that can offer movement speed increases, or lines that can offer small boosts to skills.
********************************************************************************************

Basically, the idea is that wizards may not have the sheer firepower of other mages, but the idea that many have tossed about for years of them being able to have the right tool for the right situation is bolstered all the more and helps increase the versatility of the wizard tremendously. And if there is need for more sheer power, something like the combat line of golems can offer that. Yes, these golems do risk stepping on the toes of classes like bard or cleric a bit, but why would a wizard not see the benefits these classes enjoy and try to mimic them, even if at a significantly lesser ability?

But all of this does come with a huge cost. First off, the cost of actually building the golems...which I think should not be insignificant, except for perhaps the lesser line. But also the HUGE cost of if a golem is destroyed, it is gone. All resources, effort, boons they offer, etc. are gone too. At least until a wizard creates another. This is significant, because for other classes, all that is usually needed to replenish these skills is time and/or rest. The wizard must actually invest time and money and effort into building something and has the good possibility of it being destroyed and all of that effort wasted.

This last bit I think is critical to help mediate any potential power increase wizards might get from this. I might also suggest that it takes a couple of rounds to "summon" a golem. This way it helps balance it out so that if there is a huge fight going on, a wizard cannot just spew forth combat golem after combat golem. They would be required to potentially give up 4 spell castings and possibly be vulnerable to attack. Sure, they can start the fight with two extra henchmen in the form of golems, but they can be targeted and destroyed easily enough and it would likely be very unwise to try and "summon" new golems in the middle of the fight.

One other thing that really would be outstanding is if golems could be unsummoned at will. Even if it takes 10 minutes like most creatures to call upon again. That way if a wizard sees his golem being abused and does not want to lose it, they can send it away to spare it, though the party will lose out on any benefits it was providing and will not get them back for a significant time.

User avatar
Ork
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: The Wizard Experience

Post by Ork » Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:21 pm

Curve wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:22 pm
Are you saying that these books serve as some sort of a pseudo-UMD tax? Making a UMD dip alluring and dissuading the ultra focused builds we are seeing with mid 50s ab and so on? Or are you just talking about the questionable effectiveness of the lore/umd change? I don’t actually understand the point you are making.
I usually hate this response, but yes.

Anomandaris
Posts: 436
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:56 am

Re: The Wizard Experience

Post by Anomandaris » Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:58 pm

I love playing wizards (and casters) and will still play them regardless of the meta. I also think they're very big force multipliers in group PvP and are still "relevant," but they're definitely lagging behind. A few things, most already said already but really should be highlighted.

1) Concentration is skewed. The Dmg #'s of builds are so high concentration is almost auto-fail. This is a major problem given you NEED a spell to get off or you're dead. PM's w/ ESF concentration actually can do ok here to reliably cast, but otherwise you're smoked. Do Melee builds lose an APR if they take a blow and a failed concentration check? No..

2) Magic level of server is so high that:
- Many can pierce premonition with +5 weapons
- Many if not all important spells are available with a range of easy, moderate to high investment.
- Saves are out of control, as are stats, meaning AB & damage output is very high and as is survivability of opponent
- Heal pots can be drunk like water on a hot summer day, making some characters fundamentally invincible to a range of builds

3) Damage #'s are so high on str builds that 1 rounding or TS KD + 1 round of flurry is almost a guarantee kill in a lot of circumstances. And this damage just keeps coming, round after round with no cd's no spell slots just infinite damage output.

I know all these things are circumstantial, but the fact is many "mundane" builds are basically "battle mages" now. It's expensive to go through all the consumables, but you have access to a bigger health pool, better damage output and better survivability.

I think a CD on heal pots could be helpful honestly. Some "infi casting" enhancements and spell design changes too, to add more secondary effects like Mind Fog & Weird, (or save debuffs, damage etc). Also a bit more survivability wouldn't hurt if damage numbers aren't dialed back on some of these crit builds.

Edit: Also... the books are insane.. I'm considering changing my build on a divine caster just to have Timestop for 35 UMD...

Void
Posts: 1600
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:03 pm

Re: The Wizard Experience

Post by Void » Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:06 pm

Two months old thread, but I have things to add.

I'm currently playing a pure wizard character and gotta say they feel mechanically weak compared to everything else, especially early on. "Pure Archer Rogue" weak.

The main thing is that there are infinite casters available, and while you're carefully moving your summon through the dungeon, a warlock, for example, can simply blast through it much faster.

So instead of a mage you're sorta reduced to a monster herder - a guy with a summon/zombie/whatever. There's some fun in unlocking GSF/ESF abilities, but they require 3 feats for ESF, and GSF infinite cast is not very strong. For example, Melf does about 10-13 damage top, Burning hands is in the same ballpark, and it also ticks off friendly summons when it hits them. Infinite Cast "see invisible" is VERY nice though. Those abilities also bug out all the time when quickslotted and need to be re-quickslotted to function.

There's also discrepancy in how summons are handled, and that's pretty much the reason why everyone is a necromancer in UD. Necromantic summons grow in power with caster level, while "Number Summons" and Planar Binding ones do not. You can also have multiple zombies at the same time, which is not the case with number summons.

From the characters I played, one that felt like real destructive mage to the date was true flame. All the power in exchange for none of the protection.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

RUNGRIND
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:37 pm

Re: The Wizard Experience

Post by RUNGRIND » Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:55 am

Void wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:06 pm
Two months old thread, but I have things to add.

I'm currently playing a pure wizard character and gotta say they feel mechanically weak compared to everything else, especially early on. "Pure Archer Rogue" weak.

The main thing is that there are infinite casters available, and while you're carefully moving your summon through the dungeon, a warlock, for example, can simply blast through it much faster.

So instead of a mage you're sorta reduced to a monster herder - a guy with a summon/zombie/whatever. There's some fun in unlocking GSF/ESF abilities, but they require 3 feats for ESF, and GSF infinite cast is not very strong. For example, Melf does about 10-13 damage top, Burning hands is in the same ballpark, and it also ticks off friendly summons when it hits them. Infinite Cast "see invisible" is VERY nice though. Those abilities also bug out all the time when quickslotted and need to be re-quickslotted to function.

There's also discrepancy in how summons are handled, and that's pretty much the reason why everyone is a necromancer in UD. Necromantic summons grow in power with caster level, while "Number Summons" and Planar Binding ones do not. You can also have multiple zombies at the same time, which is not the case with number summons.

From the characters I played, one that felt like real destructive mage to the date was true flame. All the power in exchange for none of the protection.
Except Clerics are still better at it than wizards. And trueflames are basically unable to defend themselves and die to anything with spell mantle.

Void
Posts: 1600
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:03 pm

Re: The Wizard Experience

Post by Void » Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:20 am

RUNGRIND wrote:
Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:55 am
Void wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:06 pm
Two months old thread, but I have things to add.

I'm currently playing a pure wizard character and gotta say they feel mechanically weak compared to everything else, especially early on. "Pure Archer Rogue" weak.

The main thing is that there are infinite casters available, and while you're carefully moving your summon through the dungeon, a warlock, for example, can simply blast through it much faster.

So instead of a mage you're sorta reduced to a monster herder - a guy with a summon/zombie/whatever. There's some fun in unlocking GSF/ESF abilities, but they require 3 feats for ESF, and GSF infinite cast is not very strong. For example, Melf does about 10-13 damage top, Burning hands is in the same ballpark, and it also ticks off friendly summons when it hits them. Infinite Cast "see invisible" is VERY nice though. Those abilities also bug out all the time when quickslotted and need to be re-quickslotted to function.

There's also discrepancy in how summons are handled, and that's pretty much the reason why everyone is a necromancer in UD. Necromantic summons grow in power with caster level, while "Number Summons" and Planar Binding ones do not. You can also have multiple zombies at the same time, which is not the case with number summons.

From the characters I played, one that felt like real destructive mage to the date was true flame. All the power in exchange for none of the protection.
Except Clerics are still better at it than wizards. And trueflames are basically unable to defend themselves and die to anything with spell mantle.
I kinda played true flames into epics (one when they couldn't drink potions) and rather not discuss their mechanics right now?
Another forum ban, here we go again.

User avatar
Hazard
Posts: 1866
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 am

Re: The Wizard Experience

Post by Hazard » Wed Dec 22, 2021 4:49 am

We could just remove wildmage, make all wizards normal wizards.. and modify the wildcard <FOIG> stuff to allow normal wizards to become wildmagier or normal, upon each <FOIG>.

Then everyone wins.

Void
Posts: 1600
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:03 pm

Re: The Wizard Experience

Post by Void » Wed Dec 22, 2021 4:59 am

Hazard wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 4:49 am
We could just remove wildmage,
Uh, why? Let wildmages be wildmages...
Another forum ban, here we go again.

User avatar
Hazard
Posts: 1866
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 am

Re: The Wizard Experience

Post by Hazard » Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:11 am

Void wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 4:59 am
Hazard wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 4:49 am
We could just remove wildmage,
Uh, why? Let wildmages be wildmages...
I dunno, seemed like a good idea at the time.

Wizards who want to be wildmages still could be, but we'd have one less permanent path choice that seems terribly difficult to ever balance quite right. Wildmage seems to shift between either being a straight upgrade to pure wizard, or a straight downgrade. I don't see a way it'll ever be perfectly balanced one way or the other, so to take pressure off of devs and players it might be better to just let it be an optional choice through FOIG means.

Or not, I don't know. I'm a big idiot.

RUNGRIND
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:37 pm

Re: The Wizard Experience

Post by RUNGRIND » Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:53 am

The main issue is that there are classes which do anything a wizard would like to do, but better, with fewer drawbacks right now.

Most of the main things a wizard -was- better at, in terms of what they could contribute to a party, has now fallen to Clerics. Or other divine casters. Which is completely fine, but they seem to want to push you to be a specialist wizard if you want to have anything interesting. Which... is kind of bad? The power of a wizard is supposed to be their versatility, except they don't even really have that any more.

Warlocks do better damage more consistently. Clerics are just better at almost everything. Wizards... -could- be okay at things like crowd control except that saves are either untouchable or what have you. A wizard is only good for making UMD these days.

And for those who are like "Just bring more spells lmao" like. You could choose to try and deal damage with certain spells. Sure. But mass haste is always better. And it's basically the only thing a wizard has left that others can't replicate except for bards.

The only case that could still be made, is for shotgun wizards with the wildmage perfect fate. But wizards pop if anything looks at them funny. Which is supposed to be the point. But they have nothing else that they do to make up for this, and they haven't for a while.

How would you fix sorcs/wizards?

For sorcs I'd honestly just add in bloodlines similar to how pathfinder did it. Give them interesting build paths, a couple free spells or boosts to certain spells giving them some flavour.

For wizards? Honestly who even knows what could be done to really put them back up there. Maybe they need additional bonuses for spell focii that others don't get? I mean loremaster makes it so clerics can do all of the super cool spell focii thing that used to be more of the wizard thing due to being feat starved, but now there is almost no reason to not take loremaster on many cleric builds.

Maybe give them new feats they can take that boost DCs higher, or give them more interesting options without having to cripple themselves by taking specializations. Because the specs give so little for so much that they take. Try playing a wizard without conjuration for example. Unless you're a necromancer, unless you 100% have a dedicated front liner to always quest with, you're worthless and will die.

Guess I'm upset because it's one of my favorite classes.

To quote a wise individual. Archmage PRC when?

User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: The Wizard Experience

Post by -XXX- » Mon Dec 27, 2021 1:54 am

Void wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 4:59 am
Hazard wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 4:49 am
We could just remove wildmage,
Uh, why? Let wildmages be wildmages...
It's a path that can essentially doublespell. It introduces a power cap on all variants of arcane spellcasters, because any improvements to the arcane spell list or the wizard class could make the wild mage specifically too powerful.

Post Reply