The Wizard Experience

[Eters]

So, I honestly wasn't certain (and still isn't) on whether or not I should be writing this, but to hell with it, some feedback is always good.

For a few months now I've taken to playing a wizard, a generalist wild mage. For this thread I'll be speaking through experience about the pros and cons of the class (wizard) in general and the subclass (wild mage) specifically.

First of all, the leveling experience, if it's just soloing, a wizard can do it quite well, considering they restrict themselves to places they know they can perform well on, with the right spells a wizard can do a lot in terms of PvE, on their own they will be able to overcome obstacles (with the aid of a summon naturally) and the "PvE Summons" AKA The Summon Creature line of spells scale pretty well if you're a conjurer, and even without being so you can still manage with a lesser tier.

In groups a wizard becomes a little less versatile if they decide to buff their allies, but nothing can't be overcome with mass hastes, once you hit the epic levels mass hasting is pretty much all you'll be doing in groups, maybe some CC if necessary and that's fine as it is, a wizard must conserve their spells and use them properly for the time of need, with spells that often have decent to high DC they do well with just one or two castings for the purpose of PvE.

Once level 30 is reached the, painstakingly deficit of the Wizard begins to show up. First of all, being a wild mage, I had to sacrifice any thought of multi-classing in order to make use of the perfected fate ability, which is the crux of the class both roleplay wise and mechanically wise. That means that outside of the class skills (which you will definitely max due to the number of skill points you get) you'll have an excess of skills you have to cross class. A regular wizard will not have that issue since they'll most definitely dip into ranger, bard, warlock or any other dip that works for them. (which opens room to a lot more versatility in terms of skills) .

The Surge system seems to be unreliable right now, and at times the monolith I call with a perfected fate just vanishes because of another surge that has nothing to do with the summon itself, sometimes the volcano I strategically place deals no damage, at others the enemies pass right through it. That beneficial AoE surge I prepared just for the purpose of giving my allies an edge doesn't apply to anyone. The Chaos Shield I was looking forward to use to protect myself from bad surges does indeed protect me from bad surges, but instead makes the surges "Silence." "How do I cast spells again." and "Hahaha" far more likely (due to how the equation of the chaos shield is) Each of those surges is saveless, and stops you COMPLETELY from casting magic for 1 whole turn (for the first two) and 1 round (for the laughter one). Naturally that makes the entire charm of the class fade as you sacrifice skills and multi classing benefits and push to 28 for the perfect fate, just for it to not be as perfect as you're first lead to believe. Then arrives the wish, a spell you can't surge, and you expect to be positive when it occurs, which ends up also harming you in the end. Because why roll against the 65% bad effects table once, when you can roll against it twice?

Then there is the PvP aspect of the class, where it honestly sits far, far away from its other magical peers in that aspect. Sorcerers make up for what they lack in "versatility" with the cheer number of spells they get. Favored souls are the same, Clerics get the ability to stand their ground and fight in close range as well as rain hell on the enemy from afar, Warlocks go brrrr. Meanwhile a wizard, which is supposed to be "versatile" and is its entire selling point, cannot truly be versatile due to the nature of Player vs Player dynamics in the server.

There is only a handful of spells that are useful in the wizard's spellbook, when it comes to player vs player encounters, with the focus on high saves, the large availability of the "counters" to CC in the form of Warding potions, Freedom potions, Clarity potions, NEP potions, you have to consider your spells carefully.

Your bread and butter are Timestop, Morderkainen Disjunction and Isaac's greater missile storm, preferably maximized, but at level 30 a high INT wizard at cap, has six nine circle slots. One goes for an extended greater sanctuary (without it you will most definitely, certainly, die.), one goes for a timestop. Leaving four slots for you to fiddle with, you can go with four morderkainens if you're participating in group PvP, sacrificing the offense of having maximized IGMS, or the pressure of having a summon. Or you can try to balance it a little by taking 2 mords and 2 gates, or 2 mords and 2 IGMS's.

You can line up some CCs and buffs in the other circles, Sunbursts which are like a WoF, but weaker, Banishments, which are like a WoF, but weaker. Bigbys have their uses but you have to prepare two for 1 person, due to pray's existance. Overall, you end up doing exactly the same things a sorcerer can do in terms of PvP, but just have a lesser amount of output in actual combat.

With healing, high AC, buffs and sustainability, Arelith PvP (Outside of arenas, with a large amount of space to make use of) tends to last a fair bit, G resto scrolls, healing potions, anti CC potions and more all serve to extend the duration of fights, and with that comes the weakness of a class like the Wizard which, was axed towards being bursty. If you go on the offensive, and use damaging spells, you will run out of them before the opponent is out of healing potions, and you will turn useless halfway into the encounter. If you use CC's, you'll have to use Bigbys, Sunburst and Mind Fog, From Acid fog, Incendiary cloud, Grease, Web to Tentacles, none of your other CCs are party friendly so you will not be able to use them effectively, at best, you'll make a portion of the (infinitely large battlefield) unaccessible, at worst, you'll kill your own allies and limit their movements.

If you're alone, the situation becomes much worst, because your EDK is pathetically weak, so you didn't take that feat, if you're an Evo combo Wizard, your hasted timestop => -fate 100 => IGMS with Avascular => Hellball => Gruin => IGMS (only two because that's as much as you can prepare without gimping yourself) is your only reliable combo and, anyone who can press pray, and drink heal potions/ use a G resto will survive it. You can summons, but a gate summon is off the gate weaker than a warded fighter prepared to kill you, so they don't last long in the battlefield, most of them waste a round or two to cast self buffs, and outside of the Deva which uses WoF, the rest pretty much set themselves to a quick death. Unlike a warlock, you can't summon one beforehand and buff it, as they last for a blink and half at best. Planar conduit offers the alternative, but gods forbid if you're not a specific allignment.

Then being an arcane class, you have to suffer making spell components (an additional charge, and a waste of timeand crafting points) that the other classes, which are already better than you, don't have to care about.

At the end, the only redeeming qualities of a wizard is their ability to timestop, mord, mass haste, and throw bigbys and rain IGMS on the enemy (providing they don't have GSF Abjuration.),All those require their availability in a large number to matter in the extended battles meta, which means that you're better off playing a sorcerer.

[Skarain]

First off, thank you for the feedback. I enjoyed reading these threads.

To start with Wild Mages, I think Wild Mage hurdles are worth their entire new thread, be it feedback or bug reports.

Your Monolith disappearing due to bad RNG is just unfun. Other features not working as well as intended can also eat at your enjoyment, but the negative effects from surging is also a part of the class fantasy. Sure, it can suck to be silenced, but use a scroll, wand or other such meanwhile. That is the price you play from playing "Wild" - but I think it is fair that the PERKS you get from playing "Wild" actually function properly so that the negatives do not bother as much.

Just got to make a good bug report/feedback thread, so the Devs have an easier time digging up the information and fix those parts. General threads are not as good for that.

--------------------------

Regarding the balance of Wizard, your perspective seem nearly entirely focused on end game PvP. The strength of a class is always more than just one aspect of the game.

A Wizard gets 2 less prepared spells per tier than sorcerer, 1 less prepared spells if they are a Specialist Wizard. However, what they gain in return is the ability to scribe scrolls (much higher level spells than Sorcerer's Brew Potion), so you can outsource your Timestop to a piece of paper for example. Saves a 9th level slot.

Even if you run out of spells, you can have a whole stack of Disjunction scrolls to utilize, or other high level spells that work well as scrolls. A Fighter is much less intimidating without their Haste to catch up to you.

A Wizard also gets 4 extra feats compared to a Sorcerer. That's one ESF row more + one Meta-magic, or potentially one extra Epic Spell if you multiclass pre-20 and push your lvl 20 feat to epics. That "Versatility" can mean summoning your friends, creating portals, illusions, a dragon, epic mage armor or whatnot. The benefits are not minor.

Your "Versatility" allows you to pack Mind Blank, Greater Sanctuary, Protection from Spells and other buffs for yourself and your party for one measly spell slot. Sorcerers have to sacrifice on each tier one of their three learned spells each higher tier just to have access to the things we consider "Mandatory" in PvP. Sure, they can cast IGMS and Disjunction dozens of more times than you, but they can not pack up said Bigby's Hands or Greater Thunderclaps or what have you without sacrificing something else.

All in all, you have a lot more choice. Most "PvP Sorcerers" are divine dip IGMS spambots, or potentially with an Evo Wombo Combo with Timestop. Yes, you can not compete with that in raw power, but you do bring other utility that they can not. It is up to you to figure how to leverage that to your advantage.

----

I think part of your gripe is just the extended battles meta, which does not fare well to any limited slot caster. Such meta requires different kind of approach, such as having a varied enough team of friends and focusing on stripping enemy of their buffs and rebuffing your own when needed to leverage on a moment of weakness.

As a Wizard, or heck even a Sorcerer, if after spending everything in your 1v1 with a.....well-prepared Weapon Master with a lot of consumeables, just bugger off and accept that there are things that are better suited for 1v1. Roast them in a properly coordinated team fight later.

[Eters]

First of all, thank you for taking the time to read through, that said I do still wish to argue on some points made.

Regarding the balance of Wizard, your perspective seem nearly entirely focused on end game PvP. The strength of a class is always more than just one aspect of the game.

That is true, there is always more strength to a class than others, that said there is nothing a wizard can do that other magically inclined classes, cannot. Every caster can invest in ESF and earn the perks your wizard has, without being gimped mechanically. From summoning friends, to creating portals, a healer cleric can do those things as well, while remaining competitive. There are classes who also get access to your ESF boons with ease, now with Loremaster even a mundane can scry, ward and so on. The same applies to Warlocks which also earn the ability to do some of those things.

Scrolls are handy, that said their CL is capped, for example you said to outsource the disjunctions to scrolls, that would effectively mean not making use of the bonus CL from both your class levels AND the abjurations bonuses if you have them, resulting in a far weaker disjunction that may not dispel much, but just serve as a glorified spell breach. You can outsource gate to scrolls but that just means they will last even less, you can outsource timestop to scrolls but that would mean losing in time economy, on top of losing an entire half a round worth of stopped time (as scrolls take 1 round to cast.) And quite hilariously, a loremaster will be better than a wizard at using scrolls, so if that's what you plan on doing, it's better to invest in loremaster.

The utility that you bring in the battlefield is often useless, hence the entire issue with the class, and why sorcerers will all have the same spellbook more or less, because they only need what "works", and there isn't a lot of choice. Wizard CCs will shine in 1 vs 1 duels inside an arena with a rule that forbids use of more than two healing potions and one G restoration, but those restrictions do not exist anywhere else. Your bigbys are avoidable with two potions (FoM and Clarity), you can burn a breach to undo the freedom, that costs you one very precious spell slot if you cast it, and one entire round if you use a scroll or a wand, meanwhile half a round is all it takes to apply a new one. And if by some matter of luck, you manage to finally CC someone, they'll pray out of it and you need to do it all again, which you can't because you ran out of spells. Time is wasted standing still and opening yourself to danger, while your enemy retains mobility and cuts distance shorter, which is a big danger to you and your cross classed 15 discipline. Thunderclap is, I believe, also not party friendly, and in truth there is just no difference from casting a protection against spells from your spellbook, or from a scroll other than the duration.

If wizards are the class that is supposed to shine at supporting others in combat. Then perhaps it is time to make them something other than an inferior sorcerer, and give them the tools necessary to support. Because no matter what you do as a wizard, a favored soul or a healer cleric with 10 words of faith or a massive overheal to party members prepared will be a better support than you ever dream to be, no matter how you engineer your spellbook. A wizard as best, saves their party some gold on not needing to use some widely available consumables. As of a bard or a healer cleric, classes with "support" as their main focus, offer their party members something impossible to buy, (bard song and overheal + respite) or obtain through consumables, hence all their worth in a group.

If in a 1 vs 1 a wizard is not that great, and in group PvP it's not that great either, then where does a wizard's role fall into the balance? What is the point of a wizard right now? What can a wizard offer that no other class can? What makes them unique and even a choice to consider from the dozens of other classes?

[Arienette]

A lot of people will say “wow, calling a wizard underpowered in a bold move!”

I will just add, that over the years I have played sorcerer, wizard/PM, warlock, Druid, cleric, etc. like every caster class basically.

Recently I decided to try a regular wizard. I have brought a 27/3 standard wizard to 30 and the class is fine but underwhelming.

I haven’t fought any PvP with it but I’m not looking forward to it. I get the feeling that if I face off against someone who is savvy and reacts quickly, I am donezo. But I will easily stomp anyone who panics or freezes up.

[Skibbles]

Wizards define PVP.

Every single meta build takes two, arguably three, things foremost into consideration before all else: saves and caster level (vs dispel). Large HP pools could be argued as a missile storm survival counter.

So it comes as no particular surprise when wizards can be said to suffer in a pvp setting because every single build is specifically designed to survive them at all cost. This isn't Arelith's fault, however, and I'd rather solely pin this issue on the antiquated 3.5 binary save system. Everything is, with a few exception of course, save or die.

I participated in quite a few group battles over the years as a wizard and it is true there is not much contribution one does, compared to the average 500 dps weaponmaster, but I found that simply cramming a spellbook full of Mordenkainen's Disjunction helped in ways that no other class can. Aside that you can just carry a ton of wands to help your buddies recover from WoF blindness, refresh people's hastes, etc.

I do find it shocking that the roleplay potential is not mentioned once in a thread about the Wizard experience. The insane toolbox you are given, as a wizard, is unparalleled by almost any other class. Just by picking the idea of Wizardry you already have nearly infinite potential RP opportunities in the investigation of magic and just about anything one can try and imagine.

If anyone is picking wizard to PVP then they have truly missed the point in my opinion.

As a side note I wish wild mage was just removed. It's like listening to the same joke over and over (volcanos and cows amirite guys? Guys? Hello?). It already seems to be an autopick. I understand it is a personal irk but it bugs me to no end how every single mage seems to be a wild mage with the same eyerolling campy magic explosions in the hub or square of choice.

[Eters]

Just because mechanics are discussed doesn't mean one chose the class simply for "PvP".

Either ways, there are two reasons I didn't approach roleplay, nor is it present in my feedback, the first is that I believe that "roleplay potential" is a given to any class. We make characters based on concepts we enjoy and said characters embody them, class and all. Any player that is truly invested in their character and passionate about them have a limitless amount of roleplay potential. True, a wizard allows an easy, straightforward approach to the magical world, but so does sorcerer, loremaster, bard and warlock. Player creativity is often the limit when it comes to roleplay and the magical world is accessible to many more classes by the hand of the players who write them in a way that allows them such.

The second reason is that I do not believe ever, that roleplay is a justification for being mechanically inferior. That thought process limits the sight on mechanics objectively. At the end of the day, mechanics and roleplay complete one another. No matter how much you enjoy the roleplay of a certain class, if you find yourself to be weak and that your presence, when the situation requires so, doesn't make much of a difference? Then you will slowly start to move away from that character and class no matter how much you like the concept behind it.

There is a point that was brought that further shows the paradox, a wizard is a class with "insane toolbox" yet for you to feel any relevant in actual PvP you had to use one tool out of the toolbox, Morderkainen disjunction. For an entire class to be only able to work out of one spell is unhealthy, and shows how far behind it lags to the rest.

[Archnon]

What wizards gain relative to other caster classes is that bonus feat every 5 levels that let them really expand into all their casting feats without ever taking away from their non-casting feats to shore up saves or even include combat/AC feats. In addition, wizards casting stat is Intelligence which is immensely useful on a server that is really beginning to take advantage of all of the potential avenues that skills offer.

And relegating Wizards in pvp to just Mord's robots or strict formulas is just crazy. More often than not PVP does not take place 1v1 against 2 optimized level 30 characters. When it does, wizards have a disadvantage, mostly because optimized builds are designed to counter casters because they have been the alpha for a while. However, more likely, PVP is to occur between opponents of different levels. There will be level gaps, the opponent will likely have at least 1 low save, or there will be a group of opponents to contend with. In all of these instances, the versatility of wizards is essential and gives them a huge opportunity to influence combat.

I think there is some room here to talk about heal potions and the ability to outlast wizard spells. Perhaps wizards need an armor that functions like Warlock where they get a full spell clutch back once a day. This means you can outlast some of those heal pots, or more importantly, can quickly switch to a combat spell book and reclutch. Or we can talk about the role of heal potions across the board. However, if you have your pvp down to that tight of a pattern, I'm guessing you are missing opportunities.

[Eyeliner]

My biggest problem with the wizard playstyle is it's just kind of boring. They have a powerful kit and when used strategically by an experienced player it's not at all underpowered... But you don't get a lot of spell slots and enemy DCs are so high you don't really get to go on the offense all that much or get to use all the cool-sounding spells on your list. Beyond having the IGMS assault ready for a boss/PVP it feels like your precious spell slots are always better filled with utility spells and summons.

That is something that really draws me to warlock-- you can afford to keep throwing out crowd control and other fun spells even if they don't work every round because you aren't limited to the handful you could memorize plus you have your blast to do direct magic damage. Caster clerics have also gotten such a boost (and a lot of traditionally arcane only spells) they're much more enticing than wizards to me now and also feel like you can be looser with using spells that may not land. Neither class is inherently stronger or better than wizard but they feel a lot more fun to play, for me. The spell components grind is also kind of annoying, I know it's not going anywhere so no point arguing that but it is a factor to me.

That's purely me speaking objectively of course, but I doubt I'll be playing an Arelith wizard again unless they get some overhaul to radically change how they play. But that's okay. I'll probably never play a bard either because that class doesn't speak to me at all... we don't all have to love every class.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I'd rather not see the class changed. I'm wary that if it is buffed, the things I enjoy about the class will be nerfed down the road, such as skill points or feats. I'd rather it be underperforming and stable than strong and constantly being readjusted and the things I play the class for removed from it.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I have some thoughts about my experience and adventures on a wizard and this seems like a good place to put it. I agree with some of what's put in the OP, and disagree with some other things. Mostly, I want to comment on the mental approach.

For background, it's been a few years since I've played a wizard, but when I considered that, it made me feel that my thoughts on the mental approach to a wizard had more relevance, not less.

My first character on this server, years ago, was an Evocation Specialist wizard. Specialization perks did not yet exist. My spell schools of choice for epic focus were Evocation, Abjuration, and Enchantment (again, before any combat-based enchantment perks were given, and most enchanters were considered more useless the further away from a basin they got). As an evocation specialist, all conjuration-based spells were removed from my tool-kit.

I never once felt under-powered, or unable to cope with an encounter in a meaningful way (except for magic-immune golems, and my +5 mordenkainen's sword was usually sufficient to eek by), and I don't mean just by relegating myself to some buffs and a mass-haste bot.

When I listen to people talk about the 'struggle' of DC casters, and wizards in particular with their limited spell output compared to sorcerers, I feel they are hanging themselves up on the numbers game before they've ever cast a spell. In PvE scenarios, I've encountered the mentality that throwing a damage spell is a waste of your resources, because how dare you do 60-120 damage to all the enemies when you could mass haste the party instead?

I have never understood this. When I went adventuring in parties with my wizard, of course I distributed some buffs. Stoneskins, mind blanks, improved invisibility, and yes, even mass haste. But I was playing an evocation specialist, and my character was more than a little prideful at their ability in the field. So, instead of filling my spellbook with 14 mass hastes, I would take one or two mass hastes and one or two extended, as well as a few regular hastes to apply to someone caught up holding a front line.

And then, I proceeded to demonstrate the value of Boom and DC spells, in tandem with these abilities. Rather than casting from my limited number of mass hastes every time it runs out, especially earlier in a dungeon where spawns tend to be weaker and smaller in number, I would sit back and use lesser control spells like confusion or even color spray and tasha's. On a larger spawn, I might throw a single firebrand, paring down the entire enemy group by half its health and allowing the rest of the party to do a quick clean-up with minimum struggle and no haste. Mordenkainen's sword with its true seeing and a +5 weapon thanks to GMW honed in on stealth enemies, keeping the squishies (other than me) from being surprise shafted, and would also isolate a target for knockdown spam to help out the tank.

More importantly, during a more challenging fight, whether it be a boss encounter or an unexpected spawn when the group is hurt, my spellbook doesn't have 14 mass hastes, it has 4, and my wizard that everyone was used to seeing throw a few buffs before an adventure and an occasional spell amidst some bigger groups of enemies, suddenly turns into a fountain of death and destruction. The whole party is mass hasted, they're still struggling, and most of them are at injured or worse. The tank drops down to near death.

Suddenly, the huge monster wailing on the tank gets pinned with a forceful hand (ignores immunity to paralysis or entangle, works great on dragons), and rather than one firebrand or chain lightning for aggro control, waves of them come out. The party is healing up now, but the fountain of death is still spraying damage across the spawns en masse, and now they're dropping like flies. Suddenly, the fight your party was losing is over, and everyone is still alive, and there stands the fountain of death in the middle. Looking around, and still ready to drop a timestop combo if necessary. Fingers twitching. Is it over?

Then the party just stares.

"Uhh... yeah, so I can do that maybe one or two more times, we should start looking for a place to rest if this is going to continue for too long."

The only drawback I've ever found for playing said wizard, is when the party looks at you afterwards, and is crazy enough to say "no, we can't wait/take a minute for you to rest/find somewhere to rest, even though it just saved our lives." And personally, at that point, my proud sun-elven evoker would offer to let them continue by themselves, or lens out.

Personally, while the above might not be quite as time efficient as 14 mass hastes, I think it makes for a much more fun, entertaining, narrative experience, and if that's not the experience the people I'm running a dungeon with are seeking, then I find another group.

When I play a wizard, I consider myself the Big Red Button. I'm the only one who gets to push the Big Red Button, and I'm the only one who decides not to push the Big Red Button. Play your caster like a living, breathing professional who takes pride in their work, and pay less attention to the meta. No one and nothing can make you feel less than useful other than your own choice to hold back.

[-XXX-]

OK, so there are two areas to consider here:

Wizards and PvE:

- SOLO: DOABLE BUT MEH. They need to rely on pets, which can take forever and frankly there are many builds that can do PvE much better.

- PARTY: REDUNDANT. When in the party, their role has been reduced to a buff bot and mass haste dispenser. There's nothing else that the wizard can do ATM to meaningfully contribute to the PvE party experience. Pets only get in the way and even IGMS spamming the boss down seems inefficient and unnecessary as the hasted shotgun build in the party can kill the boss much faster and the magical damage is pretty much redundant at that point.


Wizards and PvP:

- 1v1: MOSTLY TOOTHLESS. The general magic level of the server had been gradually increasing for quite some time now. Characters have access to better gear which strongly benefits the non-caster archetype of characters. The engame setup of most optimized builds aims to make sure that the character's saves are on par or higher than the DC of most spells while retaining a HP value that can comfortably absorb an evocation combo. The absence of melee presence and AC turns wizard PvP experience into a ridiculous chase in most cases. At the same time writs make sure that characters reach their full potential much faster, so the window of opportunity where a wizard can take advantage of an underlevelled or underequipped character is much smaller (yes, wizards are EXCELLENT n00bstompers, but even that seems to be going away - that's what I'm actually saying).

- GROUP PvP: VERY DEPENDENT. Here the wizard seems to have a clearly defined role too - dispeller and finisher. They are supposed to knock off the wards of opponents and once those have been softened up by other (usually melee oriented mundane) characters a successfully executed evocation combo can decide the outcome. There better not be any guys with ranged weapons on the opposing team tho...

[AstralUniverse]

Wild mage is an incredibly imbalanced class that will always be either pathetically weak or overpowered because it can be gamed into mathematical precision. I never personally liked it's design and I'd rather it's removed or just nerfed into oblivion.

[Eters]

It seems like there is a few themes that keep returning and being pointed out, but to put it briefly.

Yes, a wizard can use DC spells in PvE, in fact, with just a mind blank and the infinite color spray that you get from GSF illusion, you can CC mobs in dungeons while in a party pretty reliably. That said most dungeons are old, and the saves on the monsters (except the boss) are low on purpose to allow various classes to clear them using different approaches. It's not like PvE in Arelith is, by any means challenging save for few specific places and I wouldn't in truth use it to gauge how strong or weak a class is.

And as much as the spells a wizard has and can tweak are fun, please. Tell me when you've last seen someone use any of the new spells (outside of iceberg) in any way, shape or form? This is part of the issue with the class. It has a large repertoire of spells which, unfortunately are not that useful at all.

Wild mages are stated to be overpowered, why? Because they can "choose" their surge once per day if they decide to go pure and lose every other aspect of utility and survivability? What people do not know is that the most powerful surge a wild mage; the dreaded all ending life threatening soul ripping mind blowing Avascular mass, can be countered by a first circle, long lasting ward that costs about 25 gp a scroll, if not less, one that isn't even breachable. (Really, go fiddle with the PGCC a little, you'll find some pretty interesting discoveries.)

In a meta where "Average saves" is in the 30's, without spellcraft or buffs considered, and where spell negating wards are available at very moderate prices in the market makes a wizard ask themselves the big question of "why even bother?" Because unless you're going to use something saveless like a WoF, anything that has a save on it will be most of the time pointless. Anything with a death descriptor will be stopped by a death ward, anything with a mind affecting descriptor will be stopped with a clarity or a mind ward, and anything that paralyses and stops movement or slows it will be stopped by a Freedom of Movement.

That is good, play and counterplay are the base of balance, but when the counterplay is not equal to the play itself? It's when you end up in situations like the current one. Add to that the variables that don't show up in most discussions, like time management and economy, mobility and speed, and you end up with a class that seems like it can do a lot in a closed vaccum but on the actual game cannot do a lot.

I also wish to thank everyone that took time to voice their opinions, with or against what is being said, and keeping it civil. Thread exists for stating various opinions and feedback, so please keep doing so, but for my part I believe I've said everything that I wished to say about the matter.

[Mattamue]

Feedback on the feedback, and this isn't directed at anyone in particular, but PVP discussions would be improved with videos or logs.

The last Cordor tournament final fight lasted about 30 seconds and was decided by a level 4 spell.

[Skibbles]

The same question can be asked of knockdown. What is the point?

Every character has a discipline dump and epic focus discipline as well as full itemization for it. Characters with 8 str rocking a cool 70 discipline is not any different than characters with 30+ saves. This is fundamentally no different than dealing with DC spells.

Nobody finds it enjoyable to be sent to the fugue because NWN rng'd one number wrong. I doubt anyone finds it more enjoyable to be ported into death by a FoD as they do a knockdown double-crit by a scythe weaponmaster.

So it's only natural that, because these classes and abilities are so absurdly strong, everyone has to take every possible step and every possible point allocated to prevent it. Ultimately the grand irony here is that DC spells are so strong they've become weak by necessity.

What's the actual solution here? I can't see one, although I've tried, besides dropping NWN's 3.5 system and using an entirely different game as a basis for Arelith.

[-XXX-]

There's another dynamic at play here.

The most commonly used arguments against spells are usually "spells bypass AC" and "if I fail my save, I'll lose instantly which is not fun".

Well, here's the deal:

AC BYPASSING : Saves on par or higher than the spell's DC essentially substitute AC - it's actually akin to having an AC value 20+ higher than the attacker's AB resulting in a 5% success rate. Take into account that most melee/ranged oriented characters can make 5+ attempts to bypass the target's AC while the mage is limited to 1 attempt to beat the "AC" (saves) per round. Furthermore, wards do provide a layer of additional protection while there's no ward that would negate all forms of physical damage until dispelled.

FUN : wizards don't have any meaningful AC. Once those attacks start landing, it's pretty much over - that's about as much fun as getting teleported into the fugue by an insta-kill spell. Against melee it's at least possible to try and keep your distance (then again, constantly running away is not very proactive and merely delays defeat), but ranged builds completely crush mages.

Feedback on the feedback, and this isn't directed at anyone in particular, but PVP discussions would be improved with videos or logs.

The last Cordor tournament final fight lasted about 30 seconds and was decided by a level 4 spell.

That's anecdotal evidence - anyone can roll a hard 1 or a hard 20. Besides, there are many variables when it comes to PvP encounters and often a disadvantage can be mitigated by player skill.
Discussions like this are often prompted by mechanical imbalances that either decrease or outright remove the relevance of such factors as player skill.

What's the actual solution here? I can't see one, although I've tried, besides dropping NWN's 3.5 system and using an entirely different game as a basis for Arelith.

IMO having DC spells force a save 4-5x in a row might've been a much more viable approach than simply rising their DC / lowering the saves.
As I mentioned before, a fighter can still make 5 attacks per round vs those 70AC builds. A wizard has only one attempt per round to make that brycer roll a 1... assuming that their wards are gone (and since the wizard is forced to stay in one spot for an entire round to cast the spell while wearing those fancy 0AC robes, it's likely going to be 1 attempt, period).

[Skibbles]

I agree that is much more viable in theory, but since I was daring to dream I dreamed of a day when we can just escape this 3.5 d20 hellscape rather than double down on it.

[Mattamue]

That's anecdotal evidence - anyone can roll a hard 1 or a hard 20. Besides, there are many variables when it comes to PvP encounters and often a disadvantage can be mitigated by player skill.
Discussions like this are often prompted by mechanical imbalances that either decrease or outright remove the relevance of such factors as player skill.

Agreed. I'm saying that at least its evidence. With enough videos or combat logs, then we would have enough data and it wouldn't be anecdotal anymore.

On a PVPRP MUD I used to play on, folks would post their combat logs and just redact all the names. They were often posted by people looking to improve. It would be harder to read for a NWN log, but with a timestamp and a log you would have something to truly work with and discuss.

I could see that quickly going south here, but I suggest its worth a shot so that we're all working with some evidence. Rather than none at all.

[Exordius]

Skibbles wrote:

What's the actual solution here? I can't see one, although I've tried, besides dropping NWN's 3.5 system and using an entirely different game as a basis for Arelith.

Skibbles wrote again:

I agree that is much more viable in theory, but since I was daring to dream I dreamed of a day when we can just escape this 3.5 d20 hellscape rather than double down on it.

Then lets do it. Seriously its time to make some fundamental changes to the system for the benefit of all. The first one being the removal of the abomination that is Vancian magic and the spell DC system.

[RedGiant]

Hard agree with the OP. I think there is even more to it. Wizards have been down-tuned on things like IGMS, while their counters have multiplied (new Starlocks even). Moreover, breaching and dispelling on Arelith is ever expanding. You would see rivers of tears if there was an ability to shred or otherwise unequip a warrior's weapon, shield, and armor. (And yes I know there is disarm, but this has received a very gentle qol update as we all know). Yet this is essentially what the breach/dispel economy does to Wizards, who are the least positioned to recover due to spell count. This is everywhere too, from the touch of a paladin's weapon, to craftable shields, to ubiquitously available wands, to enhanced every caster but wizard spells (nature's balance anyone?). We could go on and on: weapon enhancement creep now routinely bypassing spell-induced damage reduction, etc., etc.

In short, you don't need a video or a combat log to see the cumulative effect of all this (DCs, saves, dispel/breaching mechanics, etc.). I've said this before. Wizard was hands-down my favorite DnD class, but I really don't play them anymore on Arelith. Sure they are fun to RP, but for adventuring and personal combat, both of which I like to do, they are a recipe for disappointment. They are, in my opinion, the 'commoner' class of the casting classes. And if you've played a commoner, you know what I mean.

[-XXX-]

It doesn't require a profound analysis of quantified data to figure out that once a glasscannon class gets declawed it doesn't perform well.

The time investment required for that would probably be better spent by actually playing a wizard to see that the overwhelming majority of talking points presented in this thread is indeed valid and accurate.

Furthermore, I wouldn't even put such a big emphasis on PvP here anymore. Arcanists in general feel overally rather underwhelming and once that bleeds over to the PvE experience (which constitutes the bulk of Arelith experience for most people) then we know for sure that something's not quite right.

[Skibbles]

Seriously its time to make some fundamental changes to the system for the benefit of all. The first one being the removal of the abomination that is Vancian magic and the spell DC system.

Okay but... How? This is much easier simply said than done. Everything is built around this system. Everything. Loremageddon is peanuts to this. All systems, classes, spells, items, and builds are predicated on surviving the wizard's otherwise devastating arsenal. Changing the wizard requires changing everything else.

Like in the suggestion thread I posted, from Iron:

The varying level of effects according to the save roll is an interesting idea, and something I'd like to see.

That being said there have been similar attempts by devs to do this kind of rework before, and it almost always hits a wall. Adjusting DCs in this fashion would make all but a select few builds unviable and call for a whole plethora of class rebalances, so I'm going to have to reject.

I hope that even so, as individual spells are worked on some of these issues can be approached.

In short: we all know the problem, it has been a problem for years, and we can talk about it forever, but nobody knows a solution that is viable as something a dev can or even wants to handle. This is a lot like the yearly Shifter feedback and rework that will never come.

To date, using search, there's been a shifter feedback thread every year for five years. Everyone knows Shifter is barely viable mechanical trash so repeating this fact doesn't do anyone good. Nobody is fixing Shifter for the same reason nobody will be fixing the entire NWN 3.5 5% incremental system of save or die.

From the most recent shifter feedback:

Fixing shifter is an enormous amount of work compared to any other class. The amount of work to do it properly would be about the same as adding 5-10 brand new fully featured classes. Every once in a while we have a dev who wants to do a shifter overhaul, and then backs out of it after looking further into the work it would take. Maybe someone will take it on someday, but I wouldn't count on it anytime soon, or even soon(tm).

Just replace 'shifter' with wizard/vancian/dc spells and you get the same ultimate quandary we face here on Arelith for years and years.

That's why I take the position of tempering one's expectation. Wizards have many incredible strengths but they cannot be measured in objective mechanical numbers in a deathmatch. It seems like the devs know this which is why they have added tons of cool toys instead. Stick to that. Wizards have a lane to be in and that's okay.

Treat them like the nerdy commoner they actually are, hide in a magic tower, and experiment with creating weird goblin/falcon/chewing gum hybrids. If you want to flex with raw magic explosions and lazors there's plenty of other classes dedicated exclusively to that.

[-XXX-]

Fixing shifter is an enormous amount of work compared to any other class. The amount of work to do it properly would be about the same as adding 5-10 brand new fully featured classes. Every once in a while we have a dev who wants to do a shifter overhaul, and then backs out of it after looking further into the work it would take. Maybe someone will take it on someday, but I wouldn't count on it anytime soon, or even soon(tm).

Just replace 'shifter' with wizard/vancian/dc spells and you get the same ultimate quandary we face here on Arelith for years and years.

That's why I take the position of tempering one's expectation. Wizards have many incredible strengths but they cannot be measured in objective mechanical numbers in a deathmatch. It seems like the devs know this which is why they have added tons of cool toys instead. Stick to that. Wizards have a lane to be in and that's okay.

While I acknowledge the base premise, I'd like to point out that wizards are one of the CORE D&D classes. They are pretty much the posterchild for this game! Suggesting to temper one's expectations with regards to their functionality can be seen as a huge disappointment and a very bad selling point with regards to this being a D&D (~lite) experience.

I do understand why the team doesn't want to touch spells, but as a result the mage archetype keeps sinking into the tar pit of power creep. Everything else keeps getting better and better but mages just keep staying the same in an ever changing meta environment.

Treat them like the nerdy commoner they actually are, hide in a magic tower, and experiment with creating weird goblin/falcon/chewing gum hybrids. If you want to flex with raw magic explosions and lazors there's plenty of other classes dedicated exclusively to that.

Wizards are not commoners. Most players who play wizards don't do it to play commoners. Players who want to play commoners play commoners.
If anything this merely demonstrates how the meta has reduced the role of the wizard class - mass haste dispenser and haste wand crafter.

The other "flashy explody lazory" character archetypes can be too restrictive (to an unfun degree):
Warlocks get smothered by the setting and RP. True Flamers are subject to crippling mechanical limitations.

[Killer on the drive home]

A worthy note as the server has further and further brought in 5e mechanics, successfully, is that 5e favored a lot more damage in their affects than effects that outright kill people. Even disintegrate has taken on a completely new definition: make the dexterity save, or take huge dice damage. And many, many other effects are "Half damage, no effect," with the damage being fairly worth it.

This rule of thumb applied with ice storm on old conlocks-ice storm spam was glorious, simply for that dps. I think the problem lays with the fact that save or suck are "useless, or end your life." Many could apply smaller debuffs on making the save, and some damage, though the fine tuning of this in PvE would be a ride in itself as we find lowbies mass murdered by mage enemies with CC. You would also have to consider that in 5e, we've eschewed away from the horror of stacking negatives or positives like we do with AC

quick example



This is something 5e is doing its best to step away from. In that, I'm suggesting that if this sort of path were taken with spells, that where debuffs are allowed to stack should be carefully considered.

[Skibbles]

I completely agree with everything you're saying XXX, and greatly wish there was a better situation.

However when confronted with the reality of finding an actual solution I believe we are left wanting. Pointing out long standing problems again and again has little value without coming up with a way to fix it. In this case the problem, at least to me, hinges on the d20 pass/fail system. I don't see us getting away from NWN's basic mechanics any time soon.

The sheer amount of work it would take to alter the entire meta, which I believe would be the case here, leads me to suggest realistic alternatives that are more reachable by players: expecting what we have had for multiple years to probably continue and plan accordingly.

I spent years playing a wizard and didn't prepare a single missile storm in that entire time, and I still had a huge blast overall. I easily got the full experience of the wizard archetype. I don't remember a time when wizards were ever really more or less powerful than they are now, always having been easily swept aside by a properly geared character or competent player, and having had a low opinion of DR spells before some characters started having +5 weapons anyway.

I do recall the Implosion meta back when it had the extra +4 to the dc. Those were not good times either, and the nature of the DC system encourages this. The moment spells get just an extra 5-10% success rate, or EDK crosses back into insanely OP, the win-button crowd will flood the gates and then we have a whole new problem again.

Wizard is very, very fun, but plays asymmetrically. There's tons of great tools that have excellent use in a wide variety of situations, some of them PVP, others 'conflict' oriented without rolling dice, and at the end of the day I don't think they're as bad in practice as they are in theory if players simply recognize where they are strong and where they are weak.

The other "flashy explody lazory" character archetypes can be too restrictive (to an unfun degree):
Warlocks get smothered by the setting and RP. True Flamers are subject to crippling mechanical limitations.

Yes, and I'd say this is the appropriate cost. No character should be a master of all trades, and playing a murder-mancer should come with prohibitive costs to other facets of play. Wizards are firmly in the realm of being great at many things, with their large toolbox, but also dominating the battlefield on top of it just elbows out everyone else as has been the case in the distant past. This doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.