Greater Rewards

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a shrouded figure
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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by a shrouded figure » Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:56 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:43 pm
I think gensai are a great example for 'gud and balanced' subrace award.

They give +1 ECL which means that to any build that has more than 1 attribute on 16 or higher doesnt really benefit from Gensai mechanically, as they mostly just suffer -2 wis or cha for the RP itself and whatever 'utility' perk the gensai gives, which is fine. They do directly upgrade some builds. More specifically, they are the most efficient on builds with 1 prime attribute and everything else on 14 or lower. In this case, they can get up to +6 to str or dex through elf and horc. I think it's also fine, otherwise these subraces wouldnt have any presence at all outside of your very occasional rare meme that's somehow more rare than winged characters.
+1

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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:19 am

The problem is that there just arent enough Greater awards. If you take one of the majors and move it down to greater, then all of the people who sit on Greaters (which is probably half of the server, more or less) will take the chance to use it on that juicy new award before it's moved back to Major soon after. This is what happened with RDD, because all of the people who were sitting on Greater were like "Well, I guess I finally have something fun to use it on!" and did not hesitate to make RDDs, *knowing* they better not hesitate because it's not staying Greater for long.

The solution would be to lower *several* majors down to greater tier at a time. And I'm betting the Team is discussing what to do with greater awards as we speak. And what to do with those awful ECL reduction trap awards who should all be removed at this point to be honest.
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ltlukoziuz
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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by ltlukoziuz » Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:26 am

Might be a controversial suggestion - but what about removing greater altogether, and downing its options to normal? Until the new rewardless system sees the daylight, why not stick to just three tiers? If major is about artificial rarity (which, with recent xp changes, is getting less true), what purpose does greater serve over normal?


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-XXX-
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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by -XXX- » Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:59 am

We have vampires, why not add lesser undead variant options for other award tiers too?

I know that I wrote earlier that award racers shouldn't be giving mechanical perks, but the undead properties seem more like a trade off right now - there are SO many things that can harm and/or outright kill undead without much counterplay.

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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:06 am

Until the new rewardless system
Is this really a thing? in the making? announced?
ltlukoziuz wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:26 am
what about removing greater altogether, and downing its options to normal?
It means you're gonna see a LOT of snakes in every city government. wait...

But on a more serious note, the point stands, Yuan-ti at least, is NOT normal award tier. It has to be higher.
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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by ltlukoziuz » Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:19 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:06 am
Until the new rewardless system

Is this really a thing? in the making? announced?
Its something promised for a reaaaaaaaaally long time, but going really slowly, just because of how complicated the whole thing is. But there is a wish to decouple races from rewards and instead use "something else" to access them. Now what that is - who knows.

---

As for snakes, fair point. Theyre more major than normal. But genasi are clearly more normal than major.


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ltlukoziuz
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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by ltlukoziuz » Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:24 am

-XXX- wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:59 am
We have vampires, why not add lesser undead variant options for other award tiers too?
Outside of dhampir, is there really anything that could fit the server? Skeletons/zombies/ghouls/similar things are too braindead. Revenants lose their purpose after they get rid of their woe. Ghosts are usually stuck to one place. I dont think Arelith is good place to do PotM style monsters either.


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-XXX-
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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by -XXX- » Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:16 pm

ltlukoziuz wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:24 am
-XXX- wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:59 am
We have vampires, why not add lesser undead variant options for other award tiers too?
Outside of dhampir, is there really anything that could fit the server? Skeletons/zombies/ghouls/similar things are too braindead. Revenants lose their purpose after they get rid of their woe. Ghosts are usually stuck to one place. I dont think Arelith is good place to do PotM style monsters either.
Wights, ghouls (they aren't mindless zombies), deathlocks, mummies and even liches I'd say would fit the server.
But specifically the wight I think would have been a good choice for a greater award option.

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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by ltlukoziuz » Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:09 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:16 pm

Wights, ghouls (they aren't mindless zombies), deathlocks, mummies and even liches I'd say would fit the server.
But specifically the wight I think would have been a good choice for a greater award option.
Liches could be a thing under old 5% imo, but now it's basically reflavored Palemaster. Due to the ritual needed to become one, a non-epic lich race would be very jarring.

Considering lycans are something not welcome and only barely supported, I dont think anything better could be done for most of others. Sure, ghouls arent fully mindless - but theyre not free willed either, driven by either instincts or commands. Mummies and wights, meanwhile, while feasible, would need to have very strong RP justification, considering their territoriality to burial site.

Deathlock warlocks sound cool though, even if hella niche. Then again, a lot of races are fairly niche, so wouldnt say no to that


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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:15 pm

So this isn't a 'no' by any means, but I think one of the main issues with 'undead' type pcs, is that they're well... undead. It's hard to rp a fear of 'death' in them, and that can be kinda important.

Also - And again this isn't a 'no' by any means again - but this would essentailly be a 'monster Race.' pc. Only really playable in the underdark.

I'm not naysaying it entirely, please understand. But it does have it's issues.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:38 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:15 pm
So this isn't a 'no' by any means, but I think one of the main issues with 'undead' type pcs, is that they're well... undead. It's hard to rp a fear of 'death' in them, and that can be kinda important.

Also - And again this isn't a 'no' by any means again - but this would essentailly be a 'monster Race.' pc. Only really playable in the underdark.

I'm not naysaying it entirely, please understand. But it does have it's issues.
I agree that problem would be an issue, but it's a matter of perspective and that perspective could be forcibly corrected with a mandatory MoD counter (across all undead, not individual players) if necessary - Lore and RAW both indicate that most undead creatures that are destroyed aren't revivable shy of a Resurrection, and even then, those spells bring the target back to life as the living creature they were before their unlife, after their destruction. Leaving the giant gaping problem of 'your character is no longer the undead creature you rolled it as.'

Turning back into an undead creature is not traditionally something one just waves away in a few moments to resume business as usual, either.

Vampires follow this rule as well, although 'killing' them requires more work, as do liches with the same caveat. They'd be trickier in that you'd have to somehow implement a mechanical vulnerability that was appropriately balanced and still gave them a reason to fear losing any fight.

Self-willed undead creatures can be neat to play, but they do need clearly defined boundaries to not uninhibitedly wreck on everyone not blessed with quite so strong a template (immunity to critical hits alone is worth most of the niche weaknesses undead actually suffer from, especially on something like an undead defender or biteback build). I'd argue a mandatory MoD counter would be both appropriate to every Undead creature and enhance the experience for both sides - but I've never rolled an award, so I get that others might feel differently.
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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by Kuma » Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:59 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:15 pm
So this isn't a 'no' by any means, but I think one of the main issues with 'undead' type pcs, is that they're well... undead. It's hard to rp a fear of 'death' in them, and that can be kinda important.

Also - And again this isn't a 'no' by any means again - but this would essentailly be a 'monster Race.' pc. Only really playable in the underdark.

I'm not naysaying it entirely, please understand. But it does have it's issues.
Fear of destruction is absolutely a thing sentient undead can and do still have. This isn't a concern.

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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by RUNGRIND » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:13 am

Based on their presence in the Underdark. A Gith might be interesting as an option. But it may be more reasonable to be a 5% so they are more rare.

I think there is another race called Skulks that could be interesting? I might be getting the name wrong, but it's a group of humans once enslaved that sort of broke free and became very pale light sensitive sneaky sorts. I know there is an 'assassin' heading down towards Greyport.

Star Elves

Crinti (Would probably be ill advised in many ways)

Cambion

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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by RUNGRIND » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:24 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:38 pm
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:15 pm
So this isn't a 'no' by any means, but I think one of the main issues with 'undead' type pcs, is that they're well... undead. It's hard to rp a fear of 'death' in them, and that can be kinda important.

Also - And again this isn't a 'no' by any means again - but this would essentailly be a 'monster Race.' pc. Only really playable in the underdark.

I'm not naysaying it entirely, please understand. But it does have it's issues.
I agree that problem would be an issue, but it's a matter of perspective and that perspective could be forcibly corrected with a mandatory MoD counter (across all undead, not individual players) if necessary - Lore and RAW both indicate that most undead creatures that are destroyed aren't revivable shy of a Resurrection, and even then, those spells bring the target back to life as the living creature they were before their unlife, after their destruction. Leaving the giant gaping problem of 'your character is no longer the undead creature you rolled it as.'

Turning back into an undead creature is not traditionally something one just waves away in a few moments to resume business as usual, either.

Vampires follow this rule as well, although 'killing' them requires more work, as do liches with the same caveat. They'd be trickier in that you'd have to somehow implement a mechanical vulnerability that was appropriately balanced and still gave them a reason to fear losing any fight.

Self-willed undead creatures can be neat to play, but they do need clearly defined boundaries to not uninhibitedly wreck on everyone not blessed with quite so strong a template (immunity to critical hits alone is worth most of the niche weaknesses undead actually suffer from, especially on something like an undead defender or biteback build). I'd argue a mandatory MoD counter would be both appropriate to every Undead creature and enhance the experience for both sides - but I've never rolled an award, so I get that others might feel differently.
Manditory MOD's are absolutely horrible for anyone. It doesn't enhance much for the person who dies in PVE or gets killed repeatedly in PVP, and then loses their character, and their reward, with no roll, and no guarantee of a fun RP experience having ended up being the end of them.

All undead have some hilarious weaknesses. I played a vampire at one point, and unless you are very, very specifically building them to eliminate these weaknesses, they are incredibly glaring and being a strong race even like vampire with crit immunity will never save you. I can't even tell you how many times I got turned by various mobs and had to run into a wall for 4 minutes unable to play the video game.

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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by Skane » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:25 am

Kuma wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:59 pm
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:15 pm
So this isn't a 'no' by any means, but I think one of the main issues with 'undead' type pcs, is that they're well... undead. It's hard to rp a fear of 'death' in them, and that can be kinda important.

Also - And again this isn't a 'no' by any means again - but this would essentailly be a 'monster Race.' pc. Only really playable in the underdark.

I'm not naysaying it entirely, please understand. But it does have it's issues.
Fear of destruction is absolutely a thing sentient undead can and do still have. This isn't a concern.
See Liches in Faerun whose appearances are 90% made up of defending their phylacteries so they don't get destroyed.
Gods can we just remove magic already?

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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by Hazard » Tue May 24, 2022 9:16 am

I just got a Greater Reward and got super excited to roll up an avariel, or a pixie, DI, or an imp or something ..

Yeah, it's been that long since I paid attention to what's in that tier. I rushed over to the wiki and immediately came back to the forums to look for a thread I can cry into about greater reward tier not having anything neat in it.

Selfish Necro of a thread, go!

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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue May 24, 2022 9:37 am

Haya

Be patient. There'll likely be another roll around of award tiers eventually, if nothing else.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by Skibbles » Tue May 24, 2022 9:56 am

Make snek

Say "step around and find out" before toggle hostile
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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by Hazard » Tue May 24, 2022 10:11 am

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 9:37 am
Haya

Be patient. There'll likely be another roll around of award tiers eventually, if nothing else.
Okey.

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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by Hazard » Tue May 24, 2022 10:12 am

Skibbles wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 9:56 am
Make snek

Say "step around and find out" before toggle hostile
:lol:

Tempting!!

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