Greater Rewards

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a shrouded figure
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Greater Rewards

Post by a shrouded figure » Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:58 pm

Just a quick comment that the greater rewards section is a bit … uninspiring currently. I don’t have any particularly enlightened suggestions as it’s only feedback, but it seems like lots was moved from greater up to major with nothing filling in the greater position.

Edit: Shameless suggestion- ogres to greater!

Killer on the drive home
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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by Killer on the drive home » Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:34 pm

Agreed with the above sans yuan ti. Sea elves were a great addition to flavor.

Because it's relevant, genasi in general are a horrible choice to willingly make. For a normal reward, you can be a downgraded human. For a greater reward, you can be a downgraded elf.

I pretty much play genasi to intentionally do negative charisma or wisdom roleplay. 5 cold resist and I can breathe underwater doesn't quite equate to worth it. And while half orc as a race exists with something as insane as 5% physical damage immunity, this is very painful to look at.
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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by Duchess Says » Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:27 pm

It would be nice to have more boons added, not just more races where if you play one you're a permanent outlier. I think it would be nice to be able to play a normal human or other common race but with a slight ability or skill bump or unique ability or power that isn't game breaking or too powerful but would open up a lot of RP. Nobles and free languages are great, be nice to see more stuff along those lines.

The ECL awards are also kind of outdated with the writ changes, I don't think getting -3 ECL matters anywhere near as much as it once did. Conversely the Guildorand start is actually really enticing now since you can do lower level writs on them.

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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by Killer on the drive home » Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:01 pm

The Guldorand start is basically a funny waste of -2 ecl at the moment, actually. The largest duration of your leveling is always in epics.
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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:23 pm

You're right, we do need to move a/some majors down to greaters. I'd hoped to do so a few months ago, but it didn't happen. I'll try and make a push for it soon.

Killer, your comments make me smile because you've no idea how hard I had to fight to get Gnesi moved down to a normal at all. I like them were they are, and will try and keep them as they are as they provide a nice bit of verity for normals.

The idea of more non-racial awards is one I am also quite fond of and really want to persue. It's just getting folk interested in coding such things. *shrug* But hopefully one day there will be more.
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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by Duchess Says » Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:22 pm

Killer on the drive home wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:01 pm
The Guldorand start is basically a funny waste of -2 ecl at the moment, actually. The largest duration of your leveling is always in epics.
Yeah but if you start at level 14 you have dozens of early writs to catch up on now (where you didn't before the changes, and -2 ECL was probably a better option). -2 ECL is pretty meaningless if you don't have to grind in epics and can do writs all the way. I personally just like starting as a fully formed character instead of an incompetent level 3 myself but that's personal taste.

Regardless I don't see anything else in the "normal" tier I would bother with, I'll probably not ever want to play a (not-so) "unique" race again as the experience was never as fun as just playing a standard race but don't know what else to do with awards.

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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by Killer on the drive home » Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:29 am

Duchess Says wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:22 pm

Yeah but if you start at level 14 you have dozens of early writs to catch up on now (where you didn't before the changes, and -2 ECL was probably a better option). -2 ECL is pretty meaningless if you don't have to grind in epics and can do writs all the way. I personally just like starting as a fully formed character instead of an incompetent level 3 myself but that's personal taste.

Regardless I don't see anything else in the "normal" tier I would bother with, I'll probably not ever want to play a (not-so) "unique" race again as the experience was never as fun as just playing a standard race but don't know what else to do with awards.
Not unreasonable.
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Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:25 pm

This is a less important point then it was two weeks ago, because of how easy it is to level. Hell, rewards are probably less important now because of how easy it is to level. But there is one thing that always stuck out to me as silly, and that's the increased ecl when it comes to leveling for all of the subraces. With a few exceptions, most of them are weaker then base races, and while i can see giving up a reward and a little power to play something I really want to play the slower leveling always really stuck out to me. Its an easy fix too I think, just decouple gifts from ecl.

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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by Good Character » Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:00 pm

Super excited with the notion that some races will be dropped down to Greater again. Hopefully, even if just briefly, we can see other planetouched returned.

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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by Killer on the drive home » Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:10 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:23 pm
Killer, your comments make me smile because you've no idea how hard I had to fight to get Gnesi moved down to a normal at all. I like them were they are, and will try and keep them as they are as they provide a nice bit of verity for normals.
This is a strange comment. It's not really hard to break down the math, and explain that it's not unreasonable to simply remove the negative, allowing for build diversity, and more diverse roleplay from the racial options. As is, genasi are largely cut off from styles of gameplay, as a +1 ecl on top of their race for a negative stat modifier. Quite literally, genasi would be more desirable with no negative, and no positives.

But what would be mechanically fair, based on the standard set by the races of half-orcs, orogs, hobgoblins, deep imaskari (lol no ecl,) yuan-ti, drow, gnolls (actually these make half-orcs look like a joke,) is simply the removal of the -2 stat on genasi races.

That would +1 ecl (goodbye one gift) for say, +2 int, I can repair stuff with my innate tool every rest, and 5 fire damage resist that literally doesn't stack with a defensive essence. For a normal or greater reward. That's not really special. It's not really unreasonable. And it would make a large portion of the playerbase really happy.
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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by Shadowy Reality » Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:17 pm

Killer on the drive home wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:34 pm
Agreed with the above sans yuan ti. Sea elves were a great addition to flavor.

Because it's relevant, genasi in general are a horrible choice to willingly make. For a normal reward, you can be a downgraded human. For a greater reward, you can be a downgraded elf.

I pretty much play genasi to intentionally do negative charisma or wisdom roleplay. 5 cold resist and I can breathe underwater doesn't quite equate to worth it. And while half orc as a race exists with something as insane as 5% physical damage immunity, this is very painful to look at.
I don't quite get this. Why would Human Genasi be worse than regular Humans? You aren't wrong that a regular Human can get +2 to two stats, whereas a Genasi has two +2 and one -2. However stat stacking on a Human can be useful. It means you can start with the same Strength as an half-orc, for example. Trading 2 Con and DI for 1 skill and 1 feat.

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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by garrbear758 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:30 pm

Genasi are very strong, probably too strong as is. The humans can get +4 to a stat while still maintaining the bonus skills and feat from human. There are some excellent wm or dex builds that can literally only be done on a human earth or air genasi. The greater versions are even better as you can get +6 to a stat, and for the majority of builds, losing wis is effectively just -1 will save, and losing cha literally does nothing.
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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by Xerah » Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:44 pm

Racing being rewards is less to do with mechanical strength and more to do with artificial rarity.
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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:55 pm

garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:30 pm
Genasi are very strong, probably too strong as is. The humans can get +4 to a stat while still maintaining the bonus skills and feat from human. There are some excellent wm or dex builds that can literally only be done on a human earth or air genasi. The greater versions are even better as you can get +6 to a stat, and for the majority of builds, losing wis is effectively just -1 will save, and losing cha literally does nothing.
You're not just loosing wisdom or charisma (which i think is more important then you do apparently!) though, you are loosing wisdom or charisma and con to get an extra +2 strength. So, thats -30 hps, -1 fort, -1 will (or being the guy who likely overplays his charisma) and you get less xp per kill. All for +1 ab and damage, maybe +2 damage if you are a two hander (with low con mind you!) and your final strength lines up that way. Is it the worst trade in the world? Absolutely not. Is one actively better then the other? I just don't see it.

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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by Eyeliner » Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:42 pm

I suspect a lot of genasi are played just to max out that one stat and not for the RP of the elemental background. Not that it’s ignored but the stat boost is the draw, not the race itself, which kind of cheapens the race and is how plane touched get taken away because there’s too many of them.

I would really just like to see something like greater award giving you a straight +1 bonus to one stat on any standard race so you can use a higher end reward to give your character a little boost while still encouraging the common races.

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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by Killer on the drive home » Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:53 pm

garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:30 pm
and losing cha literally does nothing.
Aside from cutting out builds. I am a lot more bothered by what I can't do with genasi than what people are doing to cripple their quality of life. Though, I actually do roleplay the stat and I tend to consider it a pretty important barrier in a character's existence to acknowledge. If anyone knows my water genasi, social interaction is a horrible experience to him fraught with misunderstandings and difficulties processing. It's also a reduced intimidate score. Which I didn't need to do to myself for any reason whatsoever. I just did it, for roleplay.

That tangent aside, double gifting on one stat just means they're gimping themselves entirely in some form. It doesn't actually provide a superior, 'insane' build as you're thinking. It's a choice to take +4 str and -2 wisdom or charisma, instead of +2 str, +2 con, -2 wis, or +2 dex, +2 int, -2 cha. Any genasi with negative charisma should just nooot bother with charisma builds. Same for the negative wisdom genasi.

This is not the the game changer that makes an earth genasi comparable to a horc. And if you have a horc genasi running around with 4 charisma doing a barbarian fighter weapon master, well...it needs to be deleted by the DMs for using human speech to roleplay most likely. And it's also either then missing the bar for 18 con (required for this build's full potential,) due to this exchange, or missing the bar for 13 int, or 13 dex.

It's just not doing it, man. It cripples your build to double gift a stat. Say goodbye to either con, ac, saves, or vital skill points in exchange.
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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by a shrouded figure » Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:58 pm

Just a quick note, I wasn’t really considering mechanicals. Just the Genasi in general don’t appeal to my roleplay style- although I did strongly consider a rock gnome earth genasi concept, so maybe that’ll be left on the table still.

Generally, I prefer that rewards =/= mechanical strength, but I also like if they’re not blatant mechanical weakness, lol. A curious side grade, for which I think the genasi chassis is great for- especially on the greater tier, but again I just don’t love many of my plane touched roleplay concepts. I have a tiefling that’s shelved because I just don’t love his roleplay… mechanically he’s ridiculous- but I do regret not spending more time thinking about story. When I got a major, I spent the whole time dreaming up mechanically OP builds, only to lose interest in his story… *sad face*

I would trade in his full suit of 5% runed equipment in a heartbeat if the devs let me get my major back- lol. It’s a funny game we play!

I do honestly like the idea of ogres in greater, it would be awesome to see more of them around. I’d also of course love to see new additions, centaurs?!? Lolol. But this is not feedback - quiet!

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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by a shrouded figure » Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:59 pm

Killer on the drive home wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:53 pm
garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:30 pm
and losing cha literally does nothing.
Aside from cutting out builds. I am a lot more bothered by what I can't do with genasi than what people are doing to cripple their quality of life. Though, I actually do roleplay the stat and I tend to consider it a pretty important barrier in a character's existence to acknowledge. If anyone knows my water genasi, social interaction is a horrible experience to him fraught with misunderstandings and difficulties processing. It's also a reduced intimidate score. Which I didn't need to do to myself for any reason whatsoever. I just did it, for roleplay.

That tangent aside, double gifting on one stat just means they're gimping themselves entirely in some form. It doesn't actually provide a superior, 'insane' build as you're thinking. It's a choice to take +4 str and -2 wisdom or charisma, instead of +2 str, +2 con, -2 wis, or +2 dex, +2 int, -2 cha. Any genasi with negative charisma should just nooot bother with charisma builds. Same for the negative wisdom genasi.

This is not the the game changer that makes an earth genasi comparable to a horc. And if you have a horc genasi running around with 4 charisma doing a barbarian fighter weapon master, well...it needs to be deleted by the DMs for using human speech to roleplay most likely. And it's also either then missing the bar for 18 con (required for this build's full potential,) due to this exchange, or missing the bar for 13 int, or 13 dex.

It's just not doing it, man. It cripples your build to double gift a stat. Say goodbye to either con, ac, saves, or vital skill points in exchange.
Barb fighter WM is really only doable on Minotaurs now… :( the rest are kinda shells of their old selves.

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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by Zavandar » Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:06 pm

genasi don't need a buff

they're niche and that's fine
Intelligence is too important

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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by -XXX- » Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:39 pm

IMO award races should be offering no additional mechanical perks when compared to their base race template.

People should be choosing them because they want to RP such character concepts, not because they happen to be the optimal mechanical choice for their selected build.

That'd also further ensure their rarity, which is the main reason for locking them behind an award in the first place.

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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:48 pm

I don't know if i think that rewards should give no mechanical perks, because then you're essentially just spending awards to look a little special in some way or other - which IMO is a tad limiting.

I do agree that the mechanical benefits shouldn't be too substantial however, and need to be carefully thought out.
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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by Jagel » Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:53 pm

Yeah more utility and flavor mechanics than stats is the way to go IMO

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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:43 pm

I think gensai are a great example for 'gud and balanced' subrace award.

They give +1 ECL which means that to any build that has more than 1 attribute on 16 or higher doesnt really benefit from Gensai mechanically, as they mostly just suffer -2 wis or cha for the RP itself and whatever 'utility' perk the gensai gives, which is fine. They do directly upgrade some builds. More specifically, they are the most efficient on builds with 1 prime attribute and everything else on 14 or lower. In this case, they can get up to +6 to str or dex through elf and horc. I think it's also fine, otherwise these subraces wouldnt have any presence at all outside of your very occasional rare meme that's somehow more rare than winged characters.
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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by Eyeliner » Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:04 pm

The question becomes are these being taken because they're making a rogue and want that +4 so "why not be an air genasi I guess", or do they actually care about playing a genasi and what that means?

Because that's how you get genasi that never mention they're genasi and people playing deep imaskari who don't know or care about the lore but that spell clutch and +4 starting int is irresistible. Or more likely, players who put in a little effort so you can't report them but in the end are just playing a slightly different human and should've just played that in the first place.

I don't think this is a black-and-white issue but I think there is merit to small boosts for regular races as awards to satisfy those playing for the class synergy and not the race, just to dissuade them from taking special races they don't want to go the distance with but do want the stat boost from.

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Re: Greater Rewards

Post by xanrael » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:34 am

I wouldn't want the race to be the main focus of a character's RP to the point where it's a caricature either. That's not to say I wouldn't find sunbathing being a drow PC's favorite hobby highly questionable, I've just personally seen more occasions of "one note" race RP for some of the reward races (and some on the non-reward ones) where I feel I could swap some PC names and people might not notice the difference.

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