A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

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Rowlind Salem
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Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Rowlind Salem » Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:02 pm

Wenchslayer wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:47 pm

I have to agree with Gumpy-cat as well. Players inexperienced with the system seem to underestimate the crew sizes it takes to keep a ship fully active more then once a week until they've done it.

As a rule, if you want a ship out and active every day, you need significantly more crew then the ship actually calls for. Typically at least two times the actual crew size in my experience. The bigger the ship, the more you need to keep it from going inactive.

Being a 'Captain of a flagship'

Aside from Sencliff, which is an outlier, most settlements currently struggle to get enough sailors for their existing ships.
I agree with how hard it is to staff a flagship. But if there were a bunch of penny rose class vessels for sale, that cuts the staffing down to a 2-4 person pool of regulars, max. Which is pretty easy to pull together consistently.

That would be enough to get people a chance to own and use a ship consistently without having to rent it. If you own a ship, it's not hard to get a couple people to come out with you.

And they really don't even need sail skill unless you're planning on ship to ship pvp. otherwise the lack of sail just makes the journey a bit slower and more likely to get boarded on the sail rolls. You can still get out on the water and go make some money and do the runic runs that are only available out to sea. As it is right now, it's pretty gated.

You have a better chance of finding pure zard than you do of ever owning a ship tbh.

Why put so much effort into developing an entirely new sailing system and not let people own ships, even small ones?

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Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:26 am

Rowlind Salem wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:02 pm


And they really don't even need sail skill unless you're planning on ship to ship pvp. otherwise the lack of sail just makes the journey a bit slower and more likely to get boarded on the sail rolls. You can still get out on the water and go make some money and do the runic runs that are only available out to sea. As it is right now, it's pretty gated.

I see this and it confirms my growing thought process that the runic stuff should be removed from Gnit and put on the high end ships you have to fight to board. I mean, there is a crafting set up outside the castle with ghosts in it. It just ain't right.

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Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Red_Wharf » Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:01 am

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:26 am
there is a crafting set up outside the castle with ghosts in it. It just ain't right.
Every time I go there I'm filled with a nearly irresistible desire of bashing every single one of those fixtures for ruining my immersion, but that wouldn't be very nice.

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Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Curve » Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:06 pm

Do it.

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Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:08 pm

Curve wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:06 pm
Do it.
Please don't. As a rule you shouldn't be destroying more than one fixtuer per 24 hours. We're a little looser on this if you leave the rubble around, but it sounds like this would be destroying half a dozen or so. It's not worth getting your self in trouble.

That said, as DM team we do have the ability to remove fixtures that we consider breaking of immersion in an area, so I'll chat to the other DMs and try and take a gander at that isle soon.
This too shall pass.

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Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by The Rambling Midget » Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:33 pm

Red_Wharf wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:01 am
Every time I go there I'm filled with a nearly irresistible desire of bashing every single one of those fixtures for ruining my immersion, but that wouldn't be very nice.
And it would be replaced, almost immediately. It's there for a reason.
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Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Rowlind Salem » Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:56 pm

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:26 am
Rowlind Salem wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:02 pm


And they really don't even need sail skill unless you're planning on ship to ship pvp. otherwise the lack of sail just makes the journey a bit slower and more likely to get boarded on the sail rolls. You can still get out on the water and go make some money and do the runic runs that are only available out to sea. As it is right now, it's pretty gated.

I see this and it confirms my growing thought process that the runic stuff should be removed from Gnit and put on the high end ships you have to fight to board. I mean, there is a crafting set up outside the castle with ghosts in it. It just ain't right.
either that or make gnit a hell of a lot harder.

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Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by FallenDabus » Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:12 am

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:21 am
I'm not sure we are at the point where we need more ships just yet, though its likely coming soon. I empathize with the perspective that there are people who could do better with their ship ownership, but sailing and how much people actually like it is still sorting itself out. There really is only one "Nat" after all. I think if we are going to judge folks based on how they use their ship we need to start now, as opposed to counting the last six months against them, since again sailing is relatively new and no one knew how much fun it could be at its inception.
Is my character's name turning into a synonym for ignorantly rejecting the existence of anything but ship content on Arelith? :P


I may have a bit of a controversial take on this. I do not believe that the experience of the flagship crews or the sizable Sencliff crew I have been a part of the past five months is that helpful to this discussion. That is not to diminish it as an important topic, but rather to shift to a bigger picture with sea content. There is a ton I would love to get into on the topic of bigger ships, but I do not believe it to be a priority.

Pseudo-Flagships (crew 5, 1st Sister, 2nd Sister, Wailing Maiden) and Flagships (crew 6, Dreadnought, Guldorand Galleon, Cordor Flagship) should be IMO be considered niche ships. (Dramatic pause in fear of booing and having rotten vegetables thrown at me!)

Beyond the benefit of more varied sea content for non-pirates in general, I believe the main dev focus going forward should be on crew two and three ships becoming the norm the system and sea content is built around. That I think would shift the whole state of the sea content in a much healthier direction. With development focus, I mean small ships specifically should gain additional mechanical utility and content purposes that the high crew requirement warships do not possess.

Most look at the smaller ships as "worse big ship". That is something we should just do away with. I got a couple of ideas myself how we could approach it on a design level, but the how is far less important than the why. There are likely a hundred great and exciting ways to make smaller ships have a novel and enjoyable purpose unique to them.

It is very easy to get sailing with these ships. They are great for spur-of-the-moment sailing when characters find each other, and can be very easily supported by small crew factions. They do not affect the balance of power between settlements at sea, so you could add two dozen of them without it being much of a factor for the Wailing Maiden, Leviathan or Dreadnought. There is just less at stake with them. They are not the pride and symbol of powerful factions and cities. Sinking someone on an Iron Courier is hardly some grand victory that yields itself well to propaganda one can plaster noticeboards with.

I also believe that adding more small ship charters and ownable ships will shift the context of the big, ownable ships in a constructive way. If you own a pseduo-flagship (and I think Dracoknight's suggestion to make them guild houses that can be lost by lacking activity is great) you are owning one of the most powerful ships on the sea and need to put in a sizable effort to build a faction to support it. We expect the same if you own a 6 quarter guild house after all. However, with more ships, you are no longer a victim of circumstance. You can just as easily trade down and have a very relaxed and enjoyable time at sea on a smaller ship.

My expectation (and I could be very well wrong on this!) is that it will make it much more exciting for folks to invest in sailing to sail a bit on the side, as well as more players being passionate about sea content. That would also help make it far easier for flagships to just hire a couple of freebooter sailors when they want to head to sea.
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Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by ltlukoziuz » Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:59 am

I agree with Dabus that what is necessary is a shift of focus to smaller ships. Can't talk on Sencliff or Andunor, but for Surface, your choice at the moment are:

- Join one of the three settlements Navies and hope they're well organized/let you act in it (at least one of them at the time of writing has basically "sunk their ships in harbor", not having that)
- Hope to join up with one of couple private ships
- Get a rental (and have to supply your own weapons and ammo, while also not being able to upgrade them or have a diving bell, limiting its usability for both ship battle and what can be accessed)

And what I've seen around is not that there's too few ships OR too few sailors - it's too little leadership. Andunor, from the sounds of it, had people willing to spend enormous amount of effort, time and resources needed to kickstart, but some other places are seriously lacking it. So if there's not enough people willing to be "movers and shakers" of naval content, then yeah, imo it should be focused to be more spontaneous and accessible. ZeroPointEnergy put up a nice guide on how to start up in it (though for a lot of people having sail gear is a tough pill to swallow (including me, with just how crammed my inventory and storages are)), but it's only good enough for a quick skip around, maybe shoot around with some smaller ships. Getting out in far waters? That's a much harder ask


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Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by FallenDabus » Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:22 am

I believe you are absolutely right that sailing content is far harder to get into as a plain surface sailor. Sencliff is by far the easiest place to build and run a sailing faction in. Imo, it has very little to do with the crew sizes for flagships and the private-owned ships directly.

I have been co-running the Roses now for well over four months. Usually, even when we get smaller in size for a time, we still have around ten active players and a couple of semi-active players in the faction. While it would be great if I could to pat myself on the shoulder and suggest it is because my stellar roleplaying skills (which I lack) or my genius insights to running a faction (which I lack as well) a lot of it comes down to being based in Sencliff.

The Roses were just a result of me not finding the type of crew I wanted to join. A lot of that is just timezone stuff or personal preference of what I like to engage with. So I really feel for non-pirate surfaces who want to get into sea content and feel like they have few options that would allow them to passionately engage with the content.

First big advantage of Sencliff is just that it is a hot spot for new players who want to interact with sea content. You walk onto the dock, see a new or familiar character, and you know they likely would love to get out to sea. "'hoy, 'eadin' out ta sea. Care to put some distance between yerself and the shore?" "Sure!" Voila, easy as that.

The second advantage are the Sencliff-specific sailing writs. They encourage new characters to want travel with older characters who are happy to help. It is a great way for new players to become familiar with the sea content and very quickly get at ease with the mechanics. Most sencliff characters I know spent about half their time leveling with already leveled characters, so it is incredibly inclusive. RP starts at 30 is not a thing on Sencliff, in that there is a lot of effort by folks to get you involved immediately.

Finally, you get access to two additional ships that are pretty good for larger factions. So being Sencliff based means you can basically sail on every surface charter ship (both pirate and non-pirate), and you got access to the two most powerful charter ships when you can sail with a bigger group. Still severely outclassed by most of the private and settlement held ships, but far better than the rest of the charters for PvE and PvP content.

All of this does not exist for the rest of surface. Even more so than in other places, the sea content feels gated because:
ltlukoziuz wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:59 am
- Get a rental (and have to supply your own weapons and ammo, while also not being able to upgrade them or have a diving bell, limiting its usability for both ship battle and what can be accessed)
Three former faction members who were part of the Roses and made new characters to get involved and help get something going outside the cliff. All three severely struggled with it, despite being incredibly familiar with it. It was not they could not get out to sea and enjoy themselves, but that unlike in Sencliff, some of the content is gated by settlements / ship owners.
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Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Nurel » Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:55 pm

Red_Wharf wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:01 am
Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:26 am
there is a crafting set up outside the castle with ghosts in it. It just ain't right.
Every time I go there I'm filled with a nearly irresistible desire of bashing every single one of those fixtures for ruining my immersion, but that wouldn't be very nice.
it's been my understanding that these fixtures over there exist to compliment the awesome graveyard which was made on that island. That graveyard is great BTW, its exactly the type of player influence I like to see on the Arelith Mod.

On ships: I agree with the "we need more ships" sentiment, although what I would *really* love to see is Player-made ships which we can make at will and attach to factions etc. I am sure this is easier said than done, but it does sound quite awesome to me :)

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Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:21 pm

For what it's worth, I'm not against adding more private ships either. But even if we add ten more, the amount of ships in existance will be far outweighed by the amount of people wanting to own one.
That's where we come in. We do need to keep a better eye on how much they're being used. And that can be a little difficult. Because it's not about how often their owners touch their quarters, or how much they are online, or how much their owners rp even neccesarly. It's down to how much a ship is used!
But yeah, 'adding more' isn't always the answer. And even if/when we do add more, this is going to be a continuing issue.
Nurel wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:55 pm
Red_Wharf wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:01 am
Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:26 am
there is a crafting set up outside the castle with ghosts in it. It just ain't right.
Every time I go there I'm filled with a nearly irresistible desire of bashing every single one of those fixtures for ruining my immersion, but that wouldn't be very nice.
it's been my understanding that these fixtures over there exist to compliment the awesome graveyard which was made on that island. That graveyard is great BTW, its exactly the type of player influence I like to see on the Arelith Mod.

On ships: I agree with the "we need more ships" sentiment, although what I would *really* love to see is Player-made ships which we can make at will and attach to factions etc. I am sure this is easier said than done, but it does sound quite awesome to me :)
The crafting fixtures were rejmoved as they weren't complementing much to be honest. The Graveyard is very nice though, and remains entirely untouched.
This too shall pass.

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Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Curve » Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:40 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:08 pm
Curve wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:06 pm
Do it.
Please don't. As a rule you shouldn't be destroying more than one fixtuer per 24 hours.
Just to be clear, I certainly do not advocate breaking any rules. I hope I don't come off as argumentative when I say that I more so advocate taking advantage of the one fixture every 24 hours limit/rule. The server's really pretty areas can easily be made god awful with fixture bloat. Be they immersion breaking, incessant signage, lack effort, or (this may be a hot take) self serving with [Pay Attention to my character name!] in the title. Sometimes we as players can suss out what needs to go?

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Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by ActionReplay » Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:50 pm

I will add more ships but just to be clear that won't solve the problem. We have to take more drastic measures on those who keep their permanent ships anchored by docks all time, using them as glorified quarters / storage. I've already implemented measures on this but we haven't acted on them just yet, its still a bit on a trial basis atm.

That being said, consider this the only warning I give :)

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Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Deryliss » Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:29 pm

Thank you both <3
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Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by ZeroPointEnergy » Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:16 pm

ltlukoziuz wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:59 am
I agree with Dabus that what is necessary is a shift of focus to smaller ships. Can't talk on Sencliff or Andunor, but for Surface, your choice at the moment are:

- Get a rental (and have to supply your own weapons and ammo, while also not being able to upgrade them or have a diving bell, limiting its usability for both ship battle and what can be accessed)
People can and do upgrade rentals. This even happened before there was no consequences for being sunk.

Some temp rentals you have to dock into the crow's nest to interact with a shipwright but all of them are upgradable and probably already have.

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Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Wenchslayer » Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:26 pm

FallenDabus wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:39 pm
@Wenchslayer I'd be really curious to know what the experience has been with the NPC crew that larger ships got access to? Have you felt it has become easier to go out to sea, now you can basically just conjure a couple 30 sail rank characters onboard to cover empty slots without the whole average tanking?
Imagine you have a dungeon, and it requires 6 characters with 75 lockpick skill just to beat it. Adding in 3 spare npcs with 30 skill doesn't solve that problem. Alternatively, you could use 3 players with an 90 lockpick DC.

It's more effective to use a 3 man or a 2 man or a 4 man vessel then to use the Dreadnaught with two 30 rank crewmen that can't be buffed. The companion with three high skill characters will trade better with a Cordorian Galleon then the Dreadnaught with 3 high skilled characters and 3 NPCs. They'll also make more gold.

For PvM content, Flagships are largely an excessive use of resources as of this patch, when the same benefits can be acquired from a 4 man rental, with less time wasted (You don't have to return to port) and lower shares of gold and coin, and far higher risk if you fail due to in character elements of prestige and status associated with them. The primary pay off is being able to say 'Mine's bigger' effectively. .

The reality is that while flagships would be optimal for PvP if crewed effectively (Which is very difficult to do in the first place, and most ships can just escape you easily anyway.) they aren't typically warranted for PvM. Changes to the diving bell content, or more powerful npc content may change this and make a flagship more impressive in future.

This is also not something easy to balance. World of Warcraft couldn't balance it's PvM versus PvP features until it finally decided to just use two entirely different statlines.

Andunor is limited by only have a 3 man and a 6 man ship. Thus, there's no middle-ground 4 man brigantine or you would see the Dreadnaught used far less as a result of this logic.

The practical benefit I saw from NPC sailors was that if someone had to quit early, an npc could take over until we reached port and called the session early. The sessions still have to be called early in those instances. It was a quality of life change but not a mechanical change of note. It was also a welcome addition that did solve a quality of life problem, which was allowing the option have players quit early while we were returning our very slow ship to dock.

I'd rather see a gradual crew reduction across the board to encourage content being used along with less of a need for these optimal warlock/loremaster/cleric builds. Keeping in mind however, that the rewards from ship content may need to be scaled down as well to compensate. Crew sizes should be like Dungeon sizes and likely optimized around the same capacity. 3-5 people for typical higher end content.

I'd encourage more items and and diversified build content for sailors. That Northman's Armor that nobody uses for example could have +5 sailing on it easily. It says it's meant for Luskanite sailors. Help buff classes like fighter or other heavy armor wearers that really need it anyway. Swashbuckler specific items would also be smart like a set of swashbuckler locked robes.

'Gift of Sail while encouraging, does little for most settlements since few characters plan at character generation to play a sailor. It's mainly a benefit to the Sencliff start. Which again, already dominates the server for this role in population.

Moreover, we can't retroactively apply for these gifts on our characters, and few are willing to throw away 100s of hours of items and gold to go relevel it.

Finding someone who pre-planned a sailing build in Andunor rather like finding an albino squig in the Underdark. This is also the case for pretty much every settlement but Sencliff. At the moment, if -relevel is ever removed, the underdark sailing scene will gradually lose most of it's current playerbase.

Thus, I'm likely to advocate for systems that favor organic roleplay, and growth, and diverse character contribution and not pre-planned from level 1-30 characters that play three specific classes.
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Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by ZeroPointEnergy » Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:39 pm

Out of curiosity, do you find the constant companion perpetually tied up as of late?

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Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Sincra » Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:50 pm

Wenchslayer wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:26 pm
Finding someone who pre-planned a sailing build in Andunor rather like finding an albino squig in the Underdark. This is also the case for pretty much every settlement but Sencliff. At the moment, if -relevel is ever removed, the underdark sailing scene will gradually lose most of it's current playerbase.
Just want to clarify a wording here to make sure.
Are you suggesting that people are swapping the sail skill in and out using the relevel command, or that people are swapping to permanently dedicate?
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Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Wenchslayer » Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:59 pm

Sincra wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:50 pm
Wenchslayer wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:26 pm
Finding someone who pre-planned a sailing build in Andunor rather like finding an albino squig in the Underdark. This is also the case for pretty much every settlement but Sencliff. At the moment, if -relevel is ever removed, the underdark sailing scene will gradually lose most of it's current playerbase.
Just want to clarify a wording here to make sure.
Are you suggesting that people are swapping the sail skill in and out using the relevel command, or that people are swapping to permanently dedicate?
The latter. Most players make characters are completely unaware that the sailing mechanics exist as an option in a place like the Underdark. It's just not well represented.

If the -relevel function did not exist, we would hear 'Oh well, that's cool, but I'm already level 16.' Instead we end up with dedicated players.
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Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by FallenDabus » Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:06 pm

Wenchslayer wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:59 pm
Sincra wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:50 pm
Wenchslayer wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:26 pm
Finding someone who pre-planned a sailing build in Andunor rather like finding an albino squig in the Underdark. This is also the case for pretty much every settlement but Sencliff. At the moment, if -relevel is ever removed, the underdark sailing scene will gradually lose most of it's current playerbase.
Just want to clarify a wording here to make sure.
Are you suggesting that people are swapping the sail skill in and out using the relevel command, or that people are swapping to permanently dedicate?
The latter. Most players make characters are completely unaware that the sailing mechanics exist as an option in a place like the Underdark. It's just not well represented.

If the -relevel function did not exist, we would hear 'Oh well, that's cool, but I'm already level 16.' Instead we end up with dedicated players.
That makes a whole lot of sense, yeah. Do you think there is any way to help with that, should relevels no longer be a thing?
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Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Wenchslayer » Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:52 pm

Not unless the mechanical requirements are made more flexible, no, or there is a sudden massive influx of new players. Without relevel my faction effectively ends or becomes too small to use the flagship as I see it as we can no longer replace players who move on.
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Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by ltlukoziuz » Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:59 pm

ZeroPointEnergy wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:16 pm
ltlukoziuz wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:59 am
I agree with Dabus that what is necessary is a shift of focus to smaller ships. Can't talk on Sencliff or Andunor, but for Surface, your choice at the moment are:

- Get a rental (and have to supply your own weapons and ammo, while also not being able to upgrade them or have a diving bell, limiting its usability for both ship battle and what can be accessed)
People can and do upgrade rentals. This even happened before there was no consequences for being sunk.

Some temp rentals you have to dock into the crow's nest to interact with a shipwright but all of them are upgradable and probably already have.
They do, but doesnt the upgrade revert after sailing, becoming a yet another recurring cost to perform? Guess another point that should get mentioned more often, if the upgrades are permanent even on temp ships.


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Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by FallenDabus » Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:56 pm

Upgrades are permanent, even on temp ships, yes.
Natasha Dryby ~ Songstress of the Sea!
Shaelin Durothil ~ Divine Seeker of Sehanine (retired)
Yowyn ~ Svirfneblin Druidess (retired)

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