A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

Rowlind Salem
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:31 pm

A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Rowlind Salem » Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:07 am

Can we just get some more lower class ships for people to own?

There's not enough to go around. If we want people to sail then we need more ships. And not rentals. Rentals are fun, but I don't really see any reason why there can't be like 10 or 12 Penny Rose to Liberator class ships available for purchase.

Between Cordor, Guldorand, Brogdenstien, Crow's Nest, Sibayad, and Sencliff there could easily be 3 or 4 smaller class ships in each place. These are all well established port settlements where it is reasonable to believe these ships would exist.

Perhaps a leasing system similar to the Darrowdeep/Gloom properties where you get a ship for a few IG years?

Whatever the case may be, there's been a lot of consolidation of power to benefit the one or two people that own ships and actually use them. It would be a much more interesting dynamic if there were more ships to go around.

As it is now, its creating a lot of tribalism and it's gotten ugly. I don't think it's long before people start rolling their sailor characters and doing something else.

There's a lot of creative ideas for crews and whatnot that are getting suppressed by this lack of resources.

thank you.

PS, for Sencliff it would be sweet if the thing you interact with the buy the quarter was moved into the Locker. I mean, wouldn't Sencliff want to hide that information from any ol anyone that comes by the docks?

Sombricimos
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:41 pm

Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Sombricimos » Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:25 am

PS, for Sencliff it would be sweet if the thing you interact with the buy the quarter was moved into the Locker. I mean, wouldn't Sencliff want to hide that information from any ol anyone that comes by the docks?
Moving the sign to the Locker would indeed be neat, for two reasons.

The one you mentionned.

And to decrease the chances of having the ship snatched away by a player when it was agreed to wait for a moot to decide. (Moot usually happen in the Locker).

User avatar
Roofshadow
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:29 am

Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Roofshadow » Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:01 am

I tried one of the rentals today for the first time, and it was so incredibly fun exploring one of the random encounter islands! I 100% agree it would be great if there were a few more ships, even just the basic little baby sloops for exploration. It would be nice for a very reliable way for a sailing character to be able to drag smaller crew and friends off on adventures.

Deryliss
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:33 pm

Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Deryliss » Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:53 am

Just wait until you find out how many of the current property ships aren't used *as ships* but instead as unbreakable item storage (because you can't quarterbreak into ships).
Marijani, Priestess of Istishia

Archnon
Posts: 854
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:05 am

Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Archnon » Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:38 am

There is a conflict opportunity here too. Smaller faster ships are ripe for IC conflict and piracy and provide a .ore interesting story opportunity than another npc encounter.

User avatar
The GrumpyCat
Dungeon Master
Dungeon Master
Posts: 6565
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:47 pm

Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:32 pm

Deryliss wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:53 am
Just wait until you find out how many of the current property ships aren't used *as ships* but instead as unbreakable item storage (because you can't quarterbreak into ships).
We try to monitor this and it's less than you think - last I checked anyway.

But I'll try to continue monitoring it

Keep in mind that it takes a lot of sailors to run a ship. This perhpas seems a little less of a 'not enough ships' and more of 'too many people want to wear the captain's hat.'
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

Deryliss
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:33 pm

Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Deryliss » Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:50 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:32 pm
Deryliss wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:53 am
Just wait until you find out how many of the current property ships aren't used *as ships* but instead as unbreakable item storage (because you can't quarterbreak into ships).
We try to monitor this and it's less than you think - last I checked anyway.

But I'll try to continue monitoring it

Keep in mind that it takes a lot of sailors to run a ship. This perhpas seems a little less of a 'not enough ships' and more of 'too many people want to wear the captain's hat.'
I'll bite.

Taking a trip to Skal and back to clear barnacles is minimal, risk-free maintenance. This is how ships appear to be active while never actually showing up on grid or being used for sea content.

Taking a lot of sailors to run a ship is the point. Many of these captains are unwilling to relinquish control (meaning keys), because that gives full access to the ship which includes the precious storage, and possibly having fixtures vandalized and stolen.

Because the amount of captains in the server is countable with two hands, its easy to keep track of who's doing what, who's using their ships for sea content, and who's just using them as luxury floating apartments with unbreakable storage. For as long as these players act as gatekeepers to the sea content, it will remain as a 'thing for sencliff pirates to do' as goes the meme, players whose only achievement was reaching the signboard before anyone else.

One comparison I often make is the Deep Wells. Imagine if the Deep Wells, in their complexity and breadth, were only accessible through personal quarters held by a handful of people with no incentive to bother letting people walk through their house to explore what's on the other side, fearful that they might steal something from their storage while they weren't looking, or having a few fixtures stolen.

Imagine if those quarters were then held by characters who don't even visit Guldorand, and mostly RP in closed cliques in other settlements.

That's the tragedy of sea content in Arelith, to what is otherwise the coolest content addition in recent times.
Marijani, Priestess of Istishia

Curve
Posts: 549
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:47 am

Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Curve » Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:15 pm

Some ships have been held for real life years. Even if the players holding those leases for so long were using them regularly and in an inclusive way it is a selfish overuse of a server resource.

User avatar
Edens_Fall
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 1065
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:45 am
Location: North America

Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Edens_Fall » Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:39 pm

I kind of have the opposite view. Too many ships compared to sailors. It was near impossible to crew the Guld flagship for example.

User avatar
ZeroPointEnergy
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 81
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:19 pm

Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by ZeroPointEnergy » Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:09 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:32 pm
Deryliss wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:53 am
Just wait until you find out how many of the current property ships aren't used *as ships* but instead as unbreakable item storage (because you can't quarterbreak into ships).
We try to monitor this and it's less than you think - last I checked anyway.

But I'll try to continue monitoring it

Keep in mind that it takes a lot of sailors to run a ship. This perhaps seems a little less of a 'not enough ships' and more of 'too many people want to wear the captain's hat.'
No, a lot of people are pretty content to be sailors speaking as the person that co-runs the Roses of Misfortune. There seems to be many things that end up a death spiral for ships:

1. The captain does not give enough access originally and loses interest.
2. The captain does not want to give access and just use it to park at Gnit for easy runics.
3. The captain asks too much for access to the boat.
4. People know they can cheese the system by just sailing in local, undetectable waters to Skal/Sibayad

A lot of it rests on the captain.

Currently we're trying to broker an agreement for use for a galleon. We actually have six people and can man it properly but we hit two problems:

1. The settlement leader does not want pirates doing pirate things because that'd hurt their chance for election. We have no voting block for them to lean on too. Understandable, if a bit sad, so it's just easier to let it rot.

2. Talking to these people they actually express genuine fears of being looted wontonly and storage is a concern. This is also understandable as losing your items is a big deal.

It requires something that's uncharactistic to the most people and that's give access to people that you aren't 100% about and be attentive on when things are getting snatched and who's got access. When that's the other option, why not just use it as a luxury apartment?

This may look different from your spreadsheets or whatever's going on the other side of the screen. But this is the sentiment commonly shared and we seem to experience when interacting with permanent boats. As AR said, temp boats get way more use then permanent boats.

The server's big. So something's missing here.

Because if I leave a temp rental pirate boat to it's own devices people don't pop up ready to take navigation. I'm usually the one that has to herd the pirates around to get people to finish writs/ attack boats/etc.

Deryliss
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:33 pm

Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Deryliss » Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:27 pm

Edens_Fall wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:39 pm
I kind of have the opposite view. Too many ships compared to sailors. It was near impossible to crew the Guld flagship for example.
I can provide a partial overview of why this is the case, but I admit its a complex problem that I don't have the full view on.

Problem one is how few players even know sailing is an option, or have the forethought to plan their characters for it. Even after all this time its not widely known how much fun the sea content is, and because its being so heavily gatekept its not a realistic option for many.

Problem two is how dependent that content is on the keyholders. If you join the crew of the Ironhelm you're 100% dependent on whomever controls it (no names, because its not a personal matter to the player/character) being online and in the mood to either hit the oceans or manage the key access to let you all have fun.

Problem three is how political and factionalized the various sailing groups are. One of my characters has made overtures to join the crew of the Leviathan, but there was no option to be a free agent. It came 'bundled' with guard faction responsibilities and several conditions and caveats designed to weed out any potential infiltrators/spies/saboteurs. This makes sense, but is also a barrier to entry that some will not bother with.
(this also adds to the point that most experienced sailors who have sailing capable characters probably have pirate ink)

Problem four is.. well, it's Guldorand :( I love Guld but the place is still a bit of a ghost town, and has become somewhat of a commuter city for characters who can't find/afford permanent residence in Cordor.


Personally, and to not be a hypocrite about all this, I'm trying to be the change I want to see as well. With the arrival of the +6 sail skill gift I am planning out a character to be a guldorand resident who may very well end up applying to sail aboard the guld warship and/or the leviathan, while being fully fleshed out from level 1 as a dedicated sailor.

In retrospect, I think adding *more ships* might not be the solution (or if we do, it would be a small number). But we need to figure out how the ships that exist can see use. I have suggestions, but I know the feedback forum reacts poorly to suggestions, so for now we players have to be the solution.
Marijani, Priestess of Istishia

Curve
Posts: 549
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:47 am

Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Curve » Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:39 pm

Deryliss wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:27 pm
Problem two is how dependent that content is on the keyholders. If you join the crew of the Ironhelm you're 100% dependent on whomever controls it (no names, because its not a personal matter to the player/character) being online and in the mood to either hit the oceans or manage the key access to let you all have fun.
Wait, people are being asked to join a crew but not given a key to the ship? That is a bad deal and the captains of these ships should reconsider their dedication to inclusive roleplay. There is inherit risk to inclusivity and there is responsibility that comes with the privilege of holding server resources.

Deryliss
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:33 pm

Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Deryliss » Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:42 pm

Curve wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:39 pm
Deryliss wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:27 pm
Problem two is how dependent that content is on the keyholders. If you join the crew of the Ironhelm you're 100% dependent on whomever controls it (no names, because its not a personal matter to the player/character) being online and in the mood to either hit the oceans or manage the key access to let you all have fun.
Wait, people are being asked to join a crew but not given a key to the ship? That is a bad deal and the captains of these ships should reconsider their dedication to inclusive roleplay. There is inherit risk to inclusivity and there is responsibility that comes with the privilege of holding server resources.
Yup. Main problem is, once you have key access to the ship, you also have key access to the storage, and for many of these ship owners that's a step too far.
Marijani, Priestess of Istishia

User avatar
Alpine Fresh
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:24 pm

Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Alpine Fresh » Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:52 pm

Lock the chest behind a door with its own key?

That way, only the captain, and trusted crew members can access it. I agree with Curve about the responsibility of inclusion that these Captains should live up to, but at the same time, trust is something that should be earned. Having two (or more) levels of access would provide a nice (player-run) opportunity for progression for crew members, and a way for Captains to show someone they've earned their place.

I feel fixtures should generally be covered by the rules, so I don't see that as such a concern. There's always "Be Nice" out there, for when people are just being silly.


Deryliss
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:33 pm

Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Deryliss » Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:07 pm

Alpine Fresh wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:52 pm
Lock the chest behind a door with its own key?

That way, only the captain, and trusted crew members can access it. I agree with Curve about the responsibility of inclusion that these Captains should live up to, but at the same time, trust is something that should be earned. Having two (or more) levels of access would provide a nice (player-run) opportunity for progression for crew members, and a way for Captains to show someone they've earned their place.

I feel fixtures should generally be covered by the rules, so I don't see that as such a concern. There's always "Be Nice" out there, for when people are just being silly.
This would be ideal. I can see four useful levels of access:
Deckhand: Able to board freely, operate guns, raise/lower sails, and use sailing tools. This is your rank for unproven people, prospects, guests. They won't be able to operate the ship on their own.
Sailor: As Deckhand, but also able to navigate, operate the grappler, change flags, essentially all sailing functions. With at least one of these on board you could do all sailing things.
Mate: Able to access the storage/high security area of the ship, essentially every function except managing the lease itself. Ideally also able to spawn Sailor/Deckhand keys to take the admin load off the Captain.
Captain: Only one, the owner of the lease. All of the above, but has access to the signboard, can manage the lease, can promote to Mate status, can rename the ship, etc.

Whether this is doable or not... this would make the ships basically factions in their own right.
Marijani, Priestess of Istishia

Rowlind Salem
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:31 pm

Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Rowlind Salem » Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:17 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:32 pm


Keep in mind that it takes a lot of sailors to run a ship. This perhpas seems a little less of a 'not enough ships' and more of 'too many people want to wear the captain's hat.'
It's really not. For the smaller type ships, 3 or 4 is all you need, which is about as big as most crews generally get. At least only that many are on at once. Not everyone wants the leadership mantle, but the thing with how it is now, you're really only allowing one legit crew to even exist. Because only one crew gets a ship. owing a ship and having to rent one makes alll the difference in running a crew.

Like, there's a big difference in being able to offer being part of a crew house vs being part of a ship, when it comes to sailing rp. I'm just not sure how big of a deal it would really be to add a few canned versions of ships to various port to increase the chances of people getting to be on the water.

Deac0knight
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:17 pm

Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Deac0knight » Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:21 pm

There is a system in game that can already do this function and it's the guild hall function. It just requires more signs. Let's say you have a guild hall with a main sign and then two quarters with signs (like the Sencliff crew halls). You can do the same for a ship even if there's no quarters attached to the additional signs. Main sign has the room access. Captain can hand out keys if he wants. Other two signs just give access to the boat. Personally, I'm in favor of having the amount of signs based on the crew number of the ship and if you can't keep a crew large enough to support the crew value, you lose the boat just like guild houses get lost when there's not enough people to support it.

User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by -XXX- » Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:29 pm

Once again, there seems to be yet another issue here that could have been easily avoided by having larger citizenship storage capacity.

Duchess Says
Posts: 211
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:52 pm

Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Duchess Says » Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:32 pm

Make ships buildable. You could pay a shipbuilder NPC an extremely large amount of money or possibly even let the crew build it themselves with many weeks of crafting points & materials.

I don't think this idea would work with land quarters as you'd need a represent them on the map so tiles would have to be changed if a new house was built, but you don't generally see ship exteriors in games you just enter the area right? So there could be a standard repeating floor plan to represent a custom built ship and it would go away if the crew disbands or even if it's sunk.

Wenchslayer
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon May 31, 2021 1:25 am

Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Wenchslayer » Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:47 pm

Underdark could probably use more vessels to create options for those who don't want to sign on with existing factions. A four man mid-sized to go along with the lighter ship and flagship would be nice, since Andunor is locked out of using almost all surface ships.

That said, under the Black Corsairs and Sharps, we've managed to successfully crew the dreadnaught for close to two months now, and remain from my understanding, the only active flagship crew that goes out daily when desiring to.

I have to agree with Gumpy-cat as well. Players inexperienced with the system seem to underestimate the crew sizes it takes to keep a ship fully active more then once a week until they've done it. Had to recruit at least twenty sailors, and draw from a revolving pool of them to keep it going out regularly. Even then, we sometimes lack numbers , and can only go out at certain hours. Aside from Sencliff, nobody is made aware of the often strong incentives to take sailing skills, (The gold. So Much. Gold.) especially in the Underdark.

Keep in mind, creating this force was an active player plot that took months to see to fruition, was cancelled and dismantled once during that time, required an I.G active registry that was subsidized for sailors, milllions of gold invested and several I.G civil conflicts over succession just to retain control of a flagship.

As a rule, if you want a ship out and active every day, you need significantly more crew then the ship actually calls for. Typically at least two times the actual crew size in my experience. The bigger the ship, the more you need to keep it from going inactive.

Of the playerbase in Andunor, maybe 10-15% of them can actually sail. The rest cannot, and once the -relevel feature is disabled, we are likely to have very few recruits if any since few if any players actively plan at character generation to become a sailor character.

Being a 'Captain of a flagship' is a fair amount of OOC work and requires an understanding of how to ease player's barrier to entry for enjoyment and to often compromise on personal goals as a result. It's basically a part time job. Part of my OOC faction design principles was to create an environment where players who maybe only were able to login a few times a week for a couple hours could still take part in utilizing the most infamous warship in Arelith Isle, on a sort of 'pick-up' rotating system. Spontaneity was encouraged rather then planning pre-set OOC events. Players who wish to be captains as a rule will need to give other players a reason to be invested in their crews. That's not something you can fix with a skill patch.

Despite that, the moment one of our plot driving players quits, Dreadnaught will go back to dock for some time, and that's fine. I've personally been in favor of lowering barriers to entry and increasing options to gain sailor skill. Aside from Sencliff, which is an outlier, most settlements currently struggle to get enough sailors for their existing ships. Andunor's saving grace was a player plot, and the fact that it is the single largest city based player pool when all three districts are combined.
Characters:

Eruantian Chil Rylinn Aelorothi -- Rolled

Kreeq Blaktoof, -- Rolled

Jhaamdath Xunviir -- Active

User avatar
FallenDabus
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:15 pm
Location: EU

Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by FallenDabus » Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:39 pm

@Wenchslayer I'd be really curious to know what the experience has been with the NPC crew that larger ships got access to? Have you felt it has become easier to go out to sea, now you can basically just conjure a couple 30 sail rank characters onboard to cover empty slots without the whole average tanking?
Natasha Dryby ~ Songstress of the Sea!
Shaelin Durothil ~ Divine Seeker of Sehanine (retired)
Yowyn ~ Svirfneblin Druidess (retired)

TooManyPotatoes
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:14 pm

Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by TooManyPotatoes » Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:20 pm

Im certainly trying to encourage the Ironhelm to be used more. Now that we cant lose upgrades this definitely has increased its use.

One of the biggest things to make me reluctant in giving use to just anyone is that access to the ship hire sign (no one perma owns the ironhelm) goes right through the barracks where sensitive information and a storage chest is held. Id rather minimise access to that.

That said, handing out more access to the ironhelm is on my to do list and i appreciate the reminder this thread provides.

Deryliss
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:33 pm

Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Deryliss » Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:15 pm

TooManyPotatoes wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:20 pm
Im certainly trying to encourage the Ironhelm to be used more. Now that we cant lose upgrades this definitely has increased its use.

One of the biggest things to make me reluctant in giving use to just anyone is that access to the ship hire sign (no one perma owns the ironhelm) goes right through the barracks where sensitive information and a storage chest is held. Id rather minimise access to that.

That said, handing out more access to the ironhelm is on my to do list and i appreciate the reminder this thread provides.
The Ironhelm was actually the first ever ship I sailed on. It was during one of Thane Vintergard's charm campaigns to Skal, where they set up a forge and a mini throne hall to promote dwarven crafts and hail newly arrived dwarves. It was *spectacular* and still one of my fondest Arelith memories. I can't wait to see the Ironhelm out and about again. :)
Marijani, Priestess of Istishia

Babylon System is the Vampire
Posts: 951
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:14 am

Re: A distinct lack of ships compared to the amount of sailors around

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:21 am

I'm not sure we are at the point where we need more ships just yet, though its likely coming soon. I empathize with the perspective that there are people who could do better with their ship ownership, but sailing and how much people actually like it is still sorting itself out. There really is only one "Nat" after all. I think if we are going to judge folks based on how they use their ship we need to start now, as opposed to counting the last six months against them, since again sailing is relatively new and no one knew how much fun it could be at its inception.

Post Reply