Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

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Ork
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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Ork » Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:11 am

Increased critical and damage from crits is a balance mevhanic that if changed will have noticeable differences as I outlined in my post before. Prepare yourselves for low AC summer. If I know that I will be hit for 40 hp with the chance of 80 hp 10% of the time, I really don't need AC if I can get HP or damage mitigation. It changes when I can get hit for 40 hp or 120 hp 50% of the time.

In a similar way, mages won't feel compelled to invest in disc so much if they can maintain high levels of HP to mitigate a round of knockdown (which is now close to 200 hp instead of 400-600 w/ wm crit range/multiplier.)

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by -XXX- » Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:35 am

Yeah, dev crit should be enabled again as well!
...to make them mages invest, y'know!

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Hazard » Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:44 am

I'm so ready.

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Void » Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:26 am

-XXX- wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:35 am
Yeah, dev crit should be enabled again as well!
...to make them mages invest, y'know!
"The difficulty class of the save is 10 + ½ character level + strength modifier."

Given that reaching 30 strength is not a problem. That would mean DC of 10 + 15 + 10... DC 35 fortitude roll for instant death. Well, I can see why it is disabled.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Ork » Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:45 am

-XXX- wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:35 am
Yeah, dev crit should be enabled again as well!
...to make them mages invest, y'know!
you're a very smart person

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by -XXX- » Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:05 am

Ork wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:45 am
you're a very smart person
i know - mom told me

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Watchful Glare » Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:14 pm

Witnessed a duel the other day, Falchion vs Greataxe. I thought it'd be evenly matched, considering the Greataxe user was a barbarian with huge HP pool. Maybe he'd be able to get one massive crit off, keep us on the edge of our seat.

The Greataxe guy got shredded after one round of exchanging blows, didn't even push the other below barely injured and he had already dropped to near death. In character, another character saying "Never bet against a Falchion in a two-handed weapon fight."

I just dislike it when the most optimal choice seems one thing universally, barring this or that exception. And other options have more style, more love, but they remain the poorer choice. If the gap is too big (or too noticeable).
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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Void » Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:18 pm

Watchful Glare wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:14 pm
Witnessed a duel the other day, Falchion vs Greataxe. I thought it'd be evenly matched, considering the Greataxe user was a barbarian with huge HP pool. Maybe he'd be able to get one massive crit off, keep us on the edge of our seat.
It heavily depends on AC and equipment, though. If you manage to raise AC through the roof, falchion won't crit (that would require a very high value). And if the guy is barbarian, his AC can be low.

I recall meeting a barbarian with 11AC (because the player wanted to fight naked). That character had about 600 hitpoints, but was being shredded in a harpy cave.

The damage can also be reduced further by concealment. 50% concealment against opponents with no blind fight halves damage received.
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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Drowboy » Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:58 pm

It's still too easy to achieve high AB (or effective high ab with hexblade and bard buddies) for falchion to not make every other two-hander weapon save the +4 maul (on builds that can't afford falchion or aren't going wm, I guess) a joke. It just amazes me that anyone would look at scimitars/rapiers dominating the one-handers and say "why don't we just do this to everything."
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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by ReverentBlade » Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:24 am

Ork wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:03 am
If you want to use a greatsword, you accept the less-than-optimal choice to use it.
You "accept" everything when you build into it. Doesn't mean it isn't worth the discussion to fix it. Under this weird take there's no point in discussing the balance of anything, ever, at any point in time, since everyone has "accepted" imbalances by the very nature of having consented to playing the game at all.

Anyway.

There's no reason -any- weapons should be suboptimal, the math of damage curves and crit ratios is well understood at this point. There's no reason they shouldn't all have a level playing field with minor visual and thematic differences.

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Void » Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:49 am

ReverentBlade wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:24 am
There's no reason -any- weapons should be suboptimal, the math of damage curves and crit ratios is well understood at this point. There's no reason they shouldn't all have a level playing field with minor visual and thematic differences.
If all weapons are optimal, then they are all the same, and there's no reason to pick one instead of another or even play at all.

Imagine playing Dark Souls where all weapons have the same damage, same requirements, same hitbox and range, and same moveset. Kinda the same thing.

D&D games were kinda about making choices with tradeoffs and then figuring out what you can do with abilities you have. And not having a smooth path from level 1 to supremacy.
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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Watchful Glare » Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:19 am

Void wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:49 am
ReverentBlade wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:24 am
There's no reason -any- weapons should be suboptimal, the math of damage curves and crit ratios is well understood at this point. There's no reason they shouldn't all have a level playing field with minor visual and thematic differences.
If all weapons are optimal, then they are all the same, and there's no reason to pick one instead of another or even play at all.

Imagine playing Dark Souls where all weapons have the same damage, same requirements, same hitbox and range, and same moveset. Kinda the same thing.

D&D games were kinda about making choices with tradeoffs and then figuring out what you can do with abilities you have. And not having a smooth path from level 1 to supremacy.
A more accurate comparison would be "Imagine a Dark Souls game where there are no special moves to the weapons, it's only basic attacks, and there's only one of each weapon that does the most damage in it's category".

Nevertheless that it's entirely a different genre entirely. One of the issues that I can see as an uneducated person into the stream of that, so this is my impression, is the following.

I think it's only the 2h weapons where this happens the most, and it's more noticeable. 1h I see people with swords, 1h axes, daggers, shortswords, and I used to see them with whips as well rarely. Scimitars are very popular, but not the point where it's almost all you see.

2h is almost always certainly a Falchion, and it's hard to blame it. The difference between anything else vs Falchion is noticeable. It's not necessarily utterly broken, but I think it's egregious to the point where it's just what you see unless someone could not spare the feat.

I would ask math or mechanics savvy person to see if removing the 1.5 STR modifier on a Falchion, on account that it crits 50% of the time would completely neuter the weapon or just tone it down a little, by comparing it to others.
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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Void » Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:50 am

Watchful Glare wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:19 am
I think it's only the 2h weapons where this happens the most, and it's more noticeable. 1h I see people with swords, 1h axes, daggers, shortswords, and I used to see them with whips as well rarely. Scimitars are very popular, but not the point where it's almost all you see.
I've seen plenty of people with scythes and war axes, though. Double axes are also very popular.
Watchful Glare wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:19 am
I would ask math or mechanics savvy person to see if removing the 1.5 STR modifier on a Falchion, on account that it crits 50% of the time would completely neuter the weapon or just tone it down a little, by comparing it to others.
1. It doesn't crit 50% of the time. To crit you'd need to beat AC, this normally happens on the first hit, and crits always confirm only if you have same AB as the targets AC. Crit immune enemis also says hi. There's a ton of them.
2. Let's assume 30 strength. That's +10, and with +1.5 that adds 15 points. With 1.0 and not 1.5 you'd get 10 points, and will lose 5 damage which is 10 points on crit. So from strength you'd be dealing 20 and not 30 on crit. If you're not a weapon master.
3. Looking at both weapons, they have an issue that they're both bell curve weapons, meaning you'll be much less likely to roll high on damage dice.
Watchful Glare wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:19 am
game where there are no special moves to the weapons
Adding special maneuvers to weapons could be fun, but it is also a can of worms. There's already a special maneuver on a whip, for example, and you can't quickslot it properly.
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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Watchful Glare » Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:55 am

Void wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:50 am
Watchful Glare wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:19 am
I think it's only the 2h weapons where this happens the most, and it's more noticeable. 1h I see people with swords, 1h axes, daggers, shortswords, and I used to see them with whips as well rarely. Scimitars are very popular, but not the point where it's almost all you see.
I've seen plenty of people with scythes and war axes, though. Double axes are also very popular.
Watchful Glare wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:19 am
I would ask math or mechanics savvy person to see if removing the 1.5 STR modifier on a Falchion, on account that it crits 50% of the time would completely neuter the weapon or just tone it down a little, by comparing it to others.
1. It doesn't crit 50% of the time. To crit you'd need to beat AC, this normally happens on the first hit, and crits always confirm only if you have same AB as the targets AC. Crit immune enemis also says hi. There's a ton of them.
2. Let's assume 30 strength. That's +10, and with +1.5 that adds 15 points. With 1.0 and not 1.5 you'd get 10 points, and will lose 5 damage which is 10 points on crit. So from strength you'd be dealing 20 and not 30 on crit. If you're not a weapon master.
3. Looking at both weapons, they have an issue that they're both bell curve weapons, meaning you'll be much less likely to roll high on damage dice.
Watchful Glare wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:19 am
game where there are no special moves to the weapons
Adding special maneuvers to weapons could be fun, but it is also a can of worms. There's already a special maneuver on a whip, for example, and you can't quickslot it properly.
In no way shape or form do I think special manouvers could be added to weapons at he moment, nor would I suggest it. But I will address the point 1.

You have 50 AB as a martial class. Not a Weaponmaster, just regular martial class. It would be more egregious with a WM. You roll a 12 or above on the dice on your attacks. But let's assume you don't roll any higher than 12. Just 12, the bare minimum.

62 result vs AC 50. It rolls to confirm, you have that 95% chance to crit.

Second atack, hasted. [50 AB]

62 result vs AC 50. It rolls to confirm, you have that 95% chance to crit.

Third attack, at -5 AB. [45 AB]

57 result vs AC 50. It rolls to confirm, you have that 80% chance to crit.

Fourth attack, at -10 AB. [40 AB]

52 result vs AC 50. It rolls to confirm, you have that 55% chance to crit.
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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Security_Blanket » Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:48 pm

You people with your charts and your number crunching, it was all right in your face from the start. Have you never seen a halfling two-handing a scimitar doing loads of damage from the sheer frequency of their crits? What is it you were expecting to happen? You added a two-handed weapon with a 18-20 crit range, anything not immune to crits is going to have a very bad day. It's funny to me how Scythes are recognized as an issue yet Falchion was added in.

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Low Hanging Fruitlord » Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:40 am

Ork wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:11 am
Increased critical and damage from crits is a balance mevhanic that if changed will have noticeable differences as I outlined in my post before. Prepare yourselves for low AC summer. If I know that I will be hit for 40 hp with the chance of 80 hp 10% of the time, I really don't need AC if I can get HP or damage mitigation. It changes when I can get hit for 40 hp or 120 hp 50% of the time.
Is crit range stacking a 'balance mechanic' though? That implies that it was intentionally added as a field leveler or a counter to something else. That's not the case. It's just something that's been with NWN since the beginning, as part of its janky implementation of 3.0, and the meta has always accounted for its presence. (Incidentally, many forms of crit range stacking were nixed for 3.5, which is why the Keen quality and the Improved Critical feat do not stack in NWN2).

And if the developer wants to change the weapon meta, then it's a valid thing to review. After all, adjusting a single class (barbarian) in the wake of changing WM seems a lot easier than having to consider how the presence of standardized 19-20x3 weapons will play out in every single class/WM combination out there.
Ork wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:11 am
In a similar way, mages won't feel compelled to invest in disc so much if they can maintain high levels of HP to mitigate a round of knockdown (which is now close to 200 hp instead of 400-600 w/ wm crit range/multiplier.)
This observation invites additional questions. Is this a bad thing? Is there a particular danger that comes from spellcasters having a free skill, or more frequently cross-classing with non-Discipline classes, or going pure? Many of the more potent spellcaster cross-classing have benefits that go beyond Discipline, and many of those combinations come with Discipline anyways. For example, Ranger for the extra spell focus feat, Pal/BG for the divine sorcerer combination, Harper/Spy for unique perks (or another divine caster variant), etc etc.

Like, are you worried about wizard rogues? What's the concern here?

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:38 pm

Low Hanging Fruitlord wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:40 am
Ork wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:11 am
Increased critical and damage from crits is a balance mevhanic that if changed will have noticeable differences as I outlined in my post before. Prepare yourselves for low AC summer. If I know that I will be hit for 40 hp with the chance of 80 hp 10% of the time, I really don't need AC if I can get HP or damage mitigation. It changes when I can get hit for 40 hp or 120 hp 50% of the time.
Is crit range stacking a 'balance mechanic' though? That implies that it was intentionally added as a field leveler or a counter to something else. That's not the case. It's just something that's been with NWN since the beginning, as part of its janky implementation of 3.0, and the meta has always accounted for its presence. (Incidentally, many forms of crit range stacking were nixed for 3.5, which is why the Keen quality and the Improved Critical feat do not stack in NWN2).

And if the developer wants to change the weapon meta, then it's a valid thing to review. After all, adjusting a single class (barbarian) in the wake of changing WM seems a lot easier than having to consider how the presence of standardized 19-20x3 weapons will play out in every single class/WM combination out there.
Ork wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:11 am
In a similar way, mages won't feel compelled to invest in disc so much if they can maintain high levels of HP to mitigate a round of knockdown (which is now close to 200 hp instead of 400-600 w/ wm crit range/multiplier.)
This observation invites additional questions. Is this a bad thing? Is there a particular danger that comes from spellcasters having a free skill, or more frequently cross-classing with non-Discipline classes, or going pure? Many of the more potent spellcaster cross-classing have benefits that go beyond Discipline, and many of those combinations come with Discipline anyways. For example, Ranger for the extra spell focus feat, Pal/BG for the divine sorcerer combination, Harper/Spy for unique perks (or another divine caster variant), etc etc.

Like, are you worried about wizard rogues? What's the concern here?
Ranger doesn't actually net anymore feats the pure wizard, and sacrifices cl for discipline. So if pure wiz needed no disc then they would hsve bettrr summons, better dispel resist, etc. (And even better for wild mage)

*edit*

Here are some combos thst arise if caster needed no discipline:

30 pure
No need for abj def ever, bettrr epic simmom bonused, bettrr cl for niche spelld same feat count as ranger dip.

Specialists might need a look at

30 cookies like wild mage will need a look at
(Look at monk whrn you constantly take and give cookies)

26 shadow wiz 4 SDcan pull off pushing mundane feat into epic, have more skills and hp and still cl 30

We balanced a lot around disc tax.

That being said i sont think surviving an extra round makes discipline less mandatory. I think the opposite is true.

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by -XXX- » Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:46 am

I don't think that such levels of DPS are healthy for the game.
a) it makes PvE boring - the shotgun build simply murders everything before the rest of the party gets to do anything
b) it disqualifies low AC builds from PvP - some character archetypes have not been designed to attain AC values that'd have been meaningful in PvP
c) forcing character archetypes to multiclass into skill-dumping a mandatory cross-class skill is awkward and counter-intuitive

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Void » Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:53 am

-XXX- wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:46 am
I don't think that such levels of DPS are healthy for the game.
a) it makes PvE boring - the shotgun build simply murders everything before the rest of the party gets to do anything
"More crit immune enemies"?
"More ranged enemies"?

I kinda wonder about two things....
1. What if discipline skill got removed altogether? It doesn't exist in pnp, and nwn2 did it away as well.
2. Does that make sense to bring up pvp often? It doesn't occur that frequently and majority of the experience isn't player to player combat. (as this is not a MOBA)
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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by -XXX- » Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:03 pm

Void wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:53 am
1. What if discipline skill got removed altogether? It doesn't exist in pnp, and nwn2 did it away as well.
Knockdown would have to be removed as well.
NWN2 nerfed the feat to oblivion when compared to NWN1 and even introduced a series of hard counters - it still turned out to be OP

PnP is an entirely different animal - it's designed primarily as a co-op game where DM supervision is assumed, so it can get away with featuring overpowered game mechanics.
Furthermore, no version of D&D has been designed for and balanced around the level cap that Arelith operates in.
Void wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:53 am
2. Does that make sense to bring up pvp often? It doesn't occur that frequently and majority of the experience isn't player to player combat. (as this is not a MOBA)
PvP represents an important narrative device. When one side in an ongoing IG conflict is disproportionately favored by unbalanced PvP dynamics, the disadvantaged party often steers away from such confrontation, which stifles the story.

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by dominantdrowess » Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:25 pm

Watchful Glare wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:14 pm
Witnessed a duel the other day, Falchion vs Greataxe. I thought it'd be evenly matched, considering the Greataxe user was a barbarian with huge HP pool. Maybe he'd be able to get one massive crit off, keep us on the edge of our seat.

The Greataxe guy got shredded after one round of exchanging blows, didn't even push the other below barely injured and he had already dropped to near death. In character, another character saying "Never bet against a Falchion in a two-handed weapon fight."

I just dislike it when the most optimal choice seems one thing universally, barring this or that exception. And other options have more style, more love, but they remain the poorer choice. If the gap is too big (or too noticeable).
But the axe is going to win against anybody who has AC that's not dex-based. This is the fact that each class takes a radically different amount of damage based on the circumstances. A 25F/5WM or 25F/5LM is in more danger from a Scythe/Axe/Halberd/Maul than the Scimi/Falchion ... as are Paladin and BG. Those ALSO do more damage against PM builds because of their higher base damage... and even 15 or 20 Divine Champion builds and High-Disc Clerics are countered more by the higher enhancement bonus weapons because of Stoneskin. I mean hell -- one easy way to do this is rework Epic Warding.

Wizards have been losing popularity due to the High Save meta. Modify Epic Warding, make it available and watch people flock to higher Enhance weapons -- though WM is always going to knock the snot out of dex builds ... That's literally its job in a large melee.

With regards of those wanting to -ignore- the higher cost of one when it becomes to balance... when the majority of the experience is PvE in his own words: What's the point of ignoring cost when PvE exists to collect gold and the person who did it the most gets the ability to farm it better?

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