Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Ork » Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:40 pm

Kenji wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:28 pm
I changed my mind, let's make everything either 18-20 x2 or 19-20 x3
Sold.

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Void » Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:41 am

Kenji wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:01 am
It's time to streamline the weapons:
If the weapons have same stats, then they're the same, so there's no reason to pick one over another and consider tradeoffs.

I'd prefer if weapons were left alone and kept unchanged. I also think that trying to streamline is not the right choice, besides a lot of streamlining has already been done. Like putting focus and specialization into groups.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Watchful Glare » Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:39 am

Kenji wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:01 am
It's time to streamline the weapons:

Tiny Weapons
Simple: 1d3, 18-20 x2, few 20 x2, finesse
Martial: 1d4, 18-20 x2, finesse
Exotic: 2d2, 18-20 x2, finesse

Small Weapons
Simple: 1d4, 19-20 x2, few 20 x2, finesse
Martial: 1d6, 19-20 x2, finesse
Exotic: 2d3, 19-20 x2, finesse, can be two-handed by small creatures, +1 AB and 1.5x str mod applies while 2H and/or finesse

Medium Weapons
Simple: 1d6, some 19-20 x2, some 20 x3, few 20 x2
Martial: 1d8, some 19-20 x2, some 20 x3
Exotic: 2d4, 19-20 x2, some can be finessed, can be two-handed by medium creatures, +1 AB and 1.5x str mod applies while 2H and/or finesse

Large Weapons
Simple: 1d10, 20 x3, few 20 x2
Martial: 1d12, 20 x3
Exotic: 3d4, 20 x3, can be two-handed by large creatures, +1 AB and 1.5x str mod applies while 2H

Begone with the scimitar/rapier meta and let the disarm meta begin!

I'll bet $10 bucks (which will go to patreon donations for Arelith) that this thread gets locked in 3 days time.
Bit of a conundrum, people that want to optimize will always optimize no matter what you do. It's just a choice when you play the game.

I think it only becomes vexating when one choice is glaringly superior to others, and it's not only a slight edge, that it becomes an issue, because it becomes the standard. So even if you have beautifully crafted new 2h weapons added, if they still don't measure up to the one that dominates it's rare that they will see use. And that's no one's fault really.

It's the only thing that's noticeable on this field (that I see myself, so bear in mind this is anecdotical. I don't have access to the data so it might very well be that everyone uses greatswords, greataxes, mauls and other weapon and I just haven't seen them).

I'm not even sure if this is possible from a code prespective, but if it were I'd suggest taking away the 1.5 STR bonus on the Falchion for 2h is another option to tone it down. Keep the crit rate as is. You still crit every time, but it does slightly less damage than it used to.
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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:43 am

Look guys, I just wanted to cry about not having greatsword for Torm, I don't think we need to radically change the weapon system and think the devs have done a good job even if I have the opinion that a chaotic greataxe and lawful greatsword would have been better.

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Watchful Glare » Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:45 am

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:43 am
Look guys, I just wanted to cry about not having greatsword for Torm, I don't think we need to radically change the weapon system and think the devs have done a good job even if I have the opinion that a chaotic greataxe and lawful greatsword would have been better.
It's too late now, here grab this gasoline container, there's no time to explain. Welcome to the forums.
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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Hazard » Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:08 am

Kenji wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:28 pm
I changed my mind, let's make everything either 18-20 x2 or 19-20 x3
Yessss.

This I can get behind. Unlock this thread.

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Curve » Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:24 am

Move scimitar and rapier to exotic and call it a feat tax for being optimal. Falchion, kukri and the dread scythe all require exotic.

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by dominantdrowess » Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:01 am

Hazard wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:08 am
Kenji wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:28 pm
I changed my mind, let's make everything either 18-20 x2 or 19-20 x3
Yessss.

This I can get behind. Unlock this thread.
But the math on -those- two choices aren't mathematically equivalent; 19-20 x3 is blatantly superior in almost all cases. Hense the status-quo and a complete lack of answering the question as to your objective for wanting to change it when a lot of people are using the new crafted items and mixing it up. o . O?

I feel like you're being sarcastic over a serious discussion, or trying to derail it, but I don't know you, so I am not sure. Can you explain your reasoning and math with AC charts like the ones they're using in builds and mechanics?

The following examples include the additional AB gained by crafted items. Once you get over 48 AC, the new crafted items are better than the Falchions, Scimitars, Kukri and Rapiers; which do not have equivalent enhancement bonuses.

Charts for averages of the current balance: These numbers are precisely why the two-handed bonus (not scaling properly with 1.5x strength damage) was reduced from 2 AB to 1 AB; hitting more often creating a stronger divergence in damage % to the point where it became awkward to justify the use of a shield given the AB totals that were flying around for awhile.

Image

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Curve wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:24 am
Move scimitar and rapier to exotic and call it a feat tax for being optimal. Falchion, kukri and the dread scythe all require exotic.
The above numbers already show they already pay a pretty big tax.. of 10x the time and gold; not to mention being vastly inferior for a sustained period before they get the successful keen.

If I am being honest though, I feel like the weapons master class expands this gap a bit in a weird way because of its arbitrary x1 crit multiplier increase at level 5, and 2 point crit-range increase (which actually favors axes, scythes, and straight swords (long/great/bastard)) at level 7.

I think this advantage by the majority of the player base is partially imagined because of the coordination of people in a team fight who go all out enough to push for this 'advantage'.. when the reality is usually: Epic Dodge Rogues who get knocked down just die in team fights when the murderball runs them over; but the players who strongly coordinate this tactic are 10% more effective at it because of these weapons, when those who don't care, don't use the tactic these items are slightly better at in the first place, and the easier, crafted racial weapons they chose have been made statistically better for their playstyle.

Two two-handers on a 70 AC Epic Dodge character basically auto-kill them without a -pray in 1 round from the moment the KD lands regardless of weapon-make because their AC becomes about 30 when knocked down; though the same build wins the 1v1 vs the 2-hander, but loses the 2v2 (dexdex vs. twohandtwohand) because of the limitations of epic dodge.

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Void » Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:14 am

dominantdrowess wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:01 am
Hazard wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:08 am
Kenji wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:28 pm
I changed my mind, let's make everything either 18-20 x2 or 19-20 x3
Yessss.

This I can get behind. Unlock this thread.
But the math on -those- two choices aren't mathematically equivalent; 19-20 x3 is blatantly superior in almost all cases.
The difference is 4.5% power increase in case of 19-20x3 in situation where AB is equal to target AC. It should be 1.15 of base damage for 19-20x3, and 1.1 of base damage for 18-20x2 on average. That largely happens because 1 always misses, so you get (17/20 + (2/20)*3) and (16/20 + (3/20)*2) of base damage respectively. I'm not sure if that's "blatantly", although difference is there. That's single hit only, without account of additional attacks.

When AC raises, the difference will shrink, as some crits will stop confirming.

Also, I'm quite Hazard is responding in the threads for fun.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Tarkus the dog » Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:12 pm

you cant address melee accordingly without addressing non-melee first

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Kenji » Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:03 pm

dominantdrowess wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:01 am
The following examples include the additional AB gained by crafted items. Once you get over 48 AC, the new crafted items are better than the Falchions, Scimitars, Kukri and Rapiers; which do not have equivalent enhancement bonuses.
Whats the reference AB here? 49?
We have builds that go from passive 45 AB all the way to 55 AB. Whenever looking at these charts, it’s more important to keep the delta AB/AC in mind than the theorized AC value. There are also scenarios that would cause a shift in delta AB/AC where one will likely need to take the entire chart into account:
- Flatfoot (corner stealth, WoF blind, under 50% health timestop, darkness, hips, knockdown, using healing kit instead of potion, or etc)
- True Strike potion (but who doesn’t run away when seeing the obvious TS pot chug pause?)
- Expertise (sitting in improved expertise for that boost in 10 AC while fishing for 20s can be a thing)
- longer duration AB boosts/AC reduction (rage, divine wrath, knight, hex)
- unpreparedness (shotgun PvP)

Base on these I am skeptical of the statement that 18-20 weapons would perform less than other weapons if target AC is higher than 48. That AC is too specific and the statement is too absolute. There’s a reason why rapiers and scimitars are still favored over longsword or battleaxe.

I’d also like to discount the effort of obtaining 5% keen’d mdamask being considered as a part of balancing as that has more to do with being a part of a faction, having more playtime, getting very lucky, and grinding Adamantine materials/crafts than individual builds or player skill.

Last but not least, any drastic weapon changes are unlikely to happen in the next year or two, but it can’t hurt if we start the process of finding a solution to the annoying rapier/scimitar/falchion/kukri/even double sword meta.

As a post script, objective discussions such as showing charts and number crunches are appreciated, these are great! However, statements that start with “I like” or “I don’t like” tell that those are likely subjective views and should probably be taken with a grain of salt, nothing more.
Last edited by Kenji on Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by -XXX- » Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:45 pm

Kenji wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:03 pm
Last but not least, any drastic weapon changes are unlikely to happen in the next year or two, but it can’t hurt if we start the process of finding a solution to the annoying rapier/scimitar/falchion/kukri/even double sword meta.
IMO this is more a PvE oriented issue. Arelith monsters tend to have fairly low AC in general, so an 18-20 weapon is a strong consideration for those who are looking for grinding as fast and efficiently as possible.

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Kenji » Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:53 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:45 pm
Kenji wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:03 pm
Last but not least, any drastic weapon changes are unlikely to happen in the next year or two, but it can’t hurt if we start the process of finding a solution to the annoying rapier/scimitar/falchion/kukri/even double sword meta.
IMO this is more a PvE oriented issue. Arelith monsters tend to have fairly low AC in general, so an 18-20 weapon is a strong consideration for those who are looking for grinding as fast and efficiently as possible.
Let’s refer to the chart, and give it to high passive AB builds such as Fighter 25/WM 5, high WM, CoT, or even BCleric/BFS builds. Rapier and scimitar are flat out better in both PvE and PvP because the statistics are skewed to the left of the chart for those high passive AB builds where they don’t rely on methods of flat footing as much as certain low AB non-div dex builds

So it is not just a PvE issue.

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by -XXX- » Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:43 pm

Kenji wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:53 pm
Let’s refer to the chart, and give it to high passive AB builds such as Fighter 25/WM 5, high WM, CoT, or even BCleric/BFS builds. Rapier and scimitar are flat out better in both PvE and PvP because the statistics are skewed to the left of the chart for those high passive AB builds where they don’t rely on methods of flat footing as much as certain low AB non-div dex builds

So it is not just a PvE issue.
These weapons being on par or better with other options in PvP makes this even worse, because even if that wasn't the case a good chunk of the player base would have still gravitated towards them anyway, since they'd still represent the supperior PvE option :
Low~ish AC of monsters = more consistent crit rate and more steady, evenly spread damage output (as opposed to large dmg bursts that often get wasted on "near death" mobs) = more damage over time = faster and more efficient grinding.

After all PvE constitutes 99% of gameplay experience of even the most determined PvP enthusiasts.

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Drowboy » Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:05 pm

I mean, this is all a really solid argument for not adding a two-handed scimitar, so let's not do- ah, woops
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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Kenji » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:01 am

-XXX- wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:43 pm
Kenji wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:53 pm
Let’s refer to the chart, and give it to high passive AB builds such as Fighter 25/WM 5, high WM, CoT, or even BCleric/BFS builds. Rapier and scimitar are flat out better in both PvE and PvP because the statistics are skewed to the left of the chart for those high passive AB builds where they don’t rely on methods of flat footing as much as certain low AB non-div dex builds

So it is not just a PvE issue.
These weapons being on par or better with other options in PvP makes this even worse, because even if that wasn't the case a good chunk of the player base would have still gravitated towards them anyway, since they'd still represent the supperior PvE option :
Low~ish AC of monsters = more consistent crit rate and more steady, evenly spread damage output (as opposed to large dmg bursts that often get wasted on "near death" mobs) = more damage over time = faster and more efficient grinding.

After all PvE constitutes 99% of gameplay experience of even the most determined PvP enthusiasts.
What makes what worse, and what does 99% of gameplay experience have to do with number-crunching? Are you trying to say that anything we do is pointless so we should keep things as is? What's your point here?

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by RedGiant » Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:49 am

I think we are missing an angle here in the large-ish amount of crit-immune PvE content (constructs, elementals, undead, random bosses), and the much smaller number of crit-immune PvE states PC can either obtain or enter into (5%s, pale-masters, druid elemental shape). Situationally, then, high base damage weapons can out-perform low base damage weapons, making a greatsword or greataxe preferable to even the vaunted falchion.

On that note, tinkering with the base damage has been done before and is a viable way to...da-dum-tiss...attack the problem. I generally prefer solutions which add options rather than take them away, so rather than eliminate weapon-tiers, perhaps our resident math guru could just come up with some slight tweaks to make weapon choice more of a dilemma.
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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Void » Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:20 am

-XXX- wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:43 pm
After all PvE constitutes 99% of gameplay experience of even the most determined PvP enthusiasts.
That one's likely false.

There are different classes and playstyles, but after the time I spent here, it feels like majority of server experience is actually walking somewhere and not fighting. That can be combined with talking part.

It feels that you'll probbaly spend 50% (or even 50-75%) of your time walking and talking if you're combat oriented, and 90-100% if you're not, pretty much no matter what you do.
Kenji wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:01 am
Are you trying to say that anything we do is pointless so we should keep things as is? What's your point here?
Frequent mechanical changes create severe disruptions of the game, and feeling of uncertainty as you don't know if you can play anything or your concept is going to be heavily altered tomorrow, no matter what you choose. There were many changes already, and maybe things should be indeed kept as they are for a couple of years or so.
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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Low Hanging Fruitlord » Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:42 am

Kenji wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:03 pm
Last but not least, any drastic weapon changes are unlikely to happen in the next year or two, but it can’t hurt if we start the process of finding a solution to the annoying rapier/scimitar/falchion/kukri/even double sword meta.
Rework weapon master.

Monk UBAB was removed because the effect of a few levels of monk was multiplicative. Whatever additive bonuses your other classes offered to your on-hit damage, UBAB multiplied it. Things like Ranger, div-dips, etc., were all enhanced by having more hits to apply the other classes' on-hit bonuses.

Similarly, Weapon Master multiplies whatever damage the rest of your build does. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Divine Champion's CHA requirements for some of its bonuses were put into place because of WM cross-classing. While other classes offer additive damage, crits multiply.

So delete the crit enhancement part of Weapon Master and add to the PrC to make it so that that one feature isn't the whole schtick. The idea of the Weapon Master is to become an ultra-specialist in a single weapon type, but in practice that single weapon type was anything with an 18-20 crit range (or 4x for the memes). Instead, have WM offer abilities based on the class of the weapon you choose to focus in. Staff masters that can do AoE knockdowns with whirlwind strike, for example. Halberd masters that can combine disarm and KD with one attack, and force riders to dismount. Weebmasters that can use the +6 Shield bonus from the Parry skill while 2-handing a katana. Etc.

Really, there wasn't too much interesting RP involving the 'weapon master' pick beyond 'yo, I trained super-hard in the scimitar and now I'm amazing.' Changing the melee weapon meta can start with a rework of the WM PrC.

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Void » Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:55 am

Low Hanging Fruitlord wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:42 am
The idea of the Weapon Master is to become an ultra-specialist in a single weapon type, but in practice that single weapon type was anything with an 18-20 crit range (or 4x for the memes). Instead, have WM offer abilities based on the class of the weapon you choose to focus in. Staff masters that can do AoE knockdowns with whirlwind strike, for example. Halberd masters that can combine disarm and KD with one attack, and force riders to dismount. Weebmasters that can use the +6 Shield bonus from the Parry skill while 2-handing a katana. Etc.

Really, there wasn't too much interesting RP involving the 'weapon master' pick beyond 'yo, I trained super-hard in the scimitar and now I'm amazing.' Changing the melee weapon meta can start with a rework of the WM PrC.
This sort of reminds me of PnP Kensai.
Signature Weapon (Su): The kensai chooses one of his weapons (it must be one for which he has the Weapon Focus feat) to become a signature weapon. Most kensai choose
either a sword or bow for this weapon, but even a kensai's natural weapons can be chosen. If the weapon is a manufactured one, it must be of at least masterwork quality.

Upon qualifying for the class, a kensai gains the ability to establish a link with his signature weapon. The character focuses part of his life energy on the weapon, making it more effective in his hands and his hands alone.
This one is not a master of weapon type, but master of a single specific weapon. The weapon undergoes improvements, and requires kensai to sacrifice xp to improve it.
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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:05 am

I don't think nerfing weapons master is the way to go. You do that and you completely eliminate strength melee characters from the game. As much as everyone hates getting got in a round, long drawn-out fights heavily favor classes that can cast/corner stealth. That's already true if I am being honest, since ac can get so high on arelith that even as is its hard to one round kill someone even with the scariest builds unless the person they are killing is either caught completely unaware or not very good. Combine that ac with high levels of stackable damage and high saves taking away the original intended weaknesses of said builds and yeah ... you got a meta where high ab high damage strength characters are necessary for variety.

What could be done however, in regards to weapon variety... and this is just a base thought process not a fully formed idea, is make the weapons master class have variations depending on the weapon they choose. So, scim gets the extra crit range, but a long sword or whatever gets +2 damage or something. Like I said, not very well thought out, just a thought to build on if it strikes anyone's fancy.

ADD ON!
Just to give an example because I was not very clear, assuming each weapon is keen with improved crit and weapons master levels..

Falchion/scim gives 55% crit range
Greatsword/bastard sword gives 40% chance of crit, +4 damage
shortsword/dagger gives 40% crit range +2 ab that counts as an enchantment (like high level pure fighters).

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by -XXX- » Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:37 am

Kenji wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:01 am
What makes what worse, and what does 99% of gameplay experience have to do with number-crunching? Are you trying to say that anything we do is pointless so we should keep things as is? What's your point here?
OK, I was hinting at the matter being a little more complex and hinging on the wider context.
I'll try to elaborate by breaking it down:


A) 18-20 weapons seem to be too prevalent = annoying and immersion breaking.
B) 18-20 weapons are being balanced to be on par or better than alternatives mostly with regards to their PvP performance.

C) 18-20 weapons outperform alternatives during PvE by the sheer virtue of their 18-20 crit range.
D) PvE constitutes the majority of combat-oriented gameplay experience of most players.

E) A considerable chunk of the PvE content has not been updated for over a decade.


Now, looks like you have identified A) as an issue and seem to be suggesting a fix in the B) step.
I say that players would choose 18-20 weapons even if B) was false because of C) and D) applies and suggest that matter might require to also be approached in step E)

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Tabby » Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:23 am

I wonder if the Great Sword compared to the Falchion, differ in materials needed to craft?
Hence if its cheaper, og would make sense.

Sometimes weapons types is just better Than others..
Make some Unique Great Swords, that would balance it out :)

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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Watchful Glare » Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:37 pm

Low Hanging Fruitlord wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:42 am
Kenji wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:03 pm
Last but not least, any drastic weapon changes are unlikely to happen in the next year or two, but it can’t hurt if we start the process of finding a solution to the annoying rapier/scimitar/falchion/kukri/even double sword meta.
Rework weapon master.

Monk UBAB was removed because the effect of a few levels of monk was multiplicative. Whatever additive bonuses your other classes offered to your on-hit damage, UBAB multiplied it. Things like Ranger, div-dips, etc., were all enhanced by having more hits to apply the other classes' on-hit bonuses.

Similarly, Weapon Master multiplies whatever damage the rest of your build does. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Divine Champion's CHA requirements for some of its bonuses were put into place because of WM cross-classing. While other classes offer additive damage, crits multiply.

So delete the crit enhancement part of Weapon Master and add to the PrC to make it so that that one feature isn't the whole schtick. The idea of the Weapon Master is to become an ultra-specialist in a single weapon type, but in practice that single weapon type was anything with an 18-20 crit range (or 4x for the memes). Instead, have WM offer abilities based on the class of the weapon you choose to focus in. Staff masters that can do AoE knockdowns with whirlwind strike, for example. Halberd masters that can combine disarm and KD with one attack, and force riders to dismount. Weebmasters that can use the +6 Shield bonus from the Parry skill while 2-handing a katana. Etc.

Really, there wasn't too much interesting RP involving the 'weapon master' pick beyond 'yo, I trained super-hard in the scimitar and now I'm amazing.' Changing the melee weapon meta can start with a rework of the WM PrC.
Not the way I thought this post was going to go; doubt it would happen anytime soon, but if WM was ever going to be reworked this approach would be an interesting way to do it.
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Re: Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

Post by Hazard » Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:24 am

Low Hanging Fruitlord wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:42 am
Weebmasters.

:lol:
+1

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