Fall 2021 Balance Adjustment Megathread

[garrbear758]

I don't really care about the 3.0 discord, or the usage of discord by developers as a form of communication; times are changing, and the way people use the internet and talk to each other has changed significantly from 2007. Forums simply do not fill the same role they did years ago.

What does bother me is a certain translucency where very crucial and important updates are concerned, especially in a thread where many developers have replied with the ostensible goal of transparency. As many people now are aware, there were recent additions to loot tables in the form of UMD-restricted books which, in essence, more or less undo the entire "Loremageddon" change.

Now, anyone who knows me knows that I definitely don't have a problem with that. I think on the whole it is a good change, with a few caveats (namely, that they are loot drop only, and can't be crafted; such an essential suite of items shouldn't be at the mercy of RNG.) What I find extremely disagreeable is that there has been ZERO mention of these books anywhere but drops in Discord, and especially the 3.0 -- again, I stress, that these are informal channels, whether they are offhand mentions in the official Discord or in the 3.0 it makes no difference to my mind. There has been no forum post about a change that is GARGANTUAN in the significance of how it will affect the meta/balance/whatever. Not in the Updates, not in the Discord update channel, and not even here in these posts about intentions and transparency and so on.

I am not sure why this is the case, so instead I will just post the stats of these books for any interested player to look at. You can loot them from the same "magic" bookshelves that you can find things like summoning books or scroll drops in.

To be fair, these came exclusively from myself and Irongron, and most of the staff were not even aware of them until they came up in game either. You can blame the 2 of us for that, as we don't ever announce loot items, and this one was kind of an experiment, although I think it panned out pretty successfully in regards to what we wanted. With that said, these do not undo loremageddon, as lore can still be used for scrolls just as much as it could before theses items were added. What they do is make some of the less min-maxed builds that have been power crept past / made obsolete since loremageddon relevant again and able to compete with the other more "modern" arelith builds.

[Skibbles]

I had a feeling I was missing come context lately hearing about some books here and there.

I don't know where else to ask this but what on earth is 3.0 and Main? Are there two official discords or something?

[Curve]

What they do is make some of the less min-maxed builds that have been power crept past / made obsolete since loremageddon relevant again and able to compete with the other more "modern" arelith builds.

I don't want to pick on your every word and hope that what I am about to say does not come off that way because it is not my intention to do so. But, I don't think that these books will do what you have outlined. They will change the whole server/meta/whatever. They will not just be used by these modern builds (that you guys are nerfing, I think) but by the next crop of modern builds, the current crop of modern builds. By everyone and not just the old builds. The addition of these items is a very big deal. Much bigger than this update, or the last, or the next one.

[Lindos]

I had a feeling I was missing come context lately hearing about some books here and there.

I don't know where else to ask this but what on earth is 3.0 and Main? Are there two official discords or something?

3.0 is the Discord Server that was created and mainly used before (but is still currently being used by a good number of people last I saw) the Arelith team created their own, which is the 'Main' Arelith Discord Server.

As an aside, I would like to remind people to stay on topic and discuss the latest updates in the 'Fall 2021 Balance Adjustment Megathread', thank you.
You can create your own threads/topics in regards to other topics in their respective subforums.

[VibeKings]

To be fair, these came exclusively from myself and Irongron, and most of the staff were not even aware of them until they came up in game either. You can blame the 2 of us for that, as we don't ever announce loot items, and this one was kind of an experiment, although I think it panned out pretty successfully in regards to what we wanted. With that said, these do not undo loremageddon, as lore can still be used for scrolls just as much as it could before theses items were added. What they do is make some of the less min-maxed builds that have been power crept past / made obsolete since loremageddon relevant again and able to compete with the other more "modern" arelith builds.

I'm sorry Garrbear but I don't agree with that at all. These two things can't exist in the same space as the other. One of them will always be superior to the other, and now that UMD is essentially "back again" it will be the side that can use timestop/gate/wof/etc. with impunity. And you can't make these books any less common, either, because scarcity doesn't address the fundamental problem they bring to the table; all that you do in that case is gatekeep them to people who are willing to mule these items in their circle of friends... unhealthy for a smattering of reasons I don't think anyone is unaware of.

While yes, lore can be used for scrolls, it is pretty much a moot point as these books vastly outstrip scrolls in every sense. The only reason to have lore now is for True Sight, which requires a mere 25, a score pretty much anyone can reach with minimal investment. These builds don't "compete." The UMD builds are just king again. Like I said, I don't have a problem with that, but I feel like the distinction between looted books and craftable items is really important, especially for casual players. There is already a huge gulf in the strength of characters who do things like spring for 5% gear, stockpile heal pots, etc. Now to be competitive players must farm libraries (of which there are relatively few) to get their books. It's more than a question of investment vs. investment -- there's a reason there weren't dozens and dozens of 80 lore weapon masters (brief window of 19 WM loremasters notwithstanding!) floating around.

EDIT: Curve's post is well-put.

[Tarkus the dog]

A couple of issues with the books:

-Lore is very difficult to get to 80 unlike 35 UMD which requires a simple UMD dump and perhaps drinking a CHA potion.

-All the solid and creative builds that came out of UMD no longer being mandatory have been nerfed too hard in the meanwhile for there to be any reason to play them over the dipping into the UMD variants ( ranger+ 3monk, pure monk, CoT+anything, high WM, Div + epic dodge gone ).

-Dipping into UMD becomes mandatory once again and by mandatory I mean if you're playing a build that doesn't go 35 UMD it's very likely you're weaker than those that do. This can't be good for the healthy environment of the game because the entire point of NWN is combining different classes together. Vanilla NWN fails at this but the lore change adjusts this issue. When one of the three classes becomes a must-have UMD class, then defeats the entire point.

-There is no real counter-play to instant timestop ( unless you get really lucky ). By instant I mean unlike the scrolls which take 3 seconds to go off and force you in the same place for 6 seconds using a book happens instantly with no down-time. One can use a mestils book + drink a haste potion and they're good to go. Before you could see somebody read the timestop scroll and maybe heal a little, go invisible/stealth, use timestop of your own, but now the moment you drop to badly wounded the opposing melee/harm cleric/you name it can insta-use the book and send you to the fugue. This is simply not fun. This also applies to instant mass haste ( why bring a mage when anyone with a book is instantly one?), instant premonition, instant mestils ( fighting an EDR build that can spam mestils isn't fun ), instant mindblank when a stun spell is being cast at you -- How do you counter this at all? You really don't.

We've gone full circle with the introduction of the books, and all the creativity that lore has given us is thrown out of the window. if this is the vision the development/administration team sees for the future of Arelith, I'm not in the least affected and can easily go back to many 3 rogue builds I played in the past which would now be stronger than before and I don't mind rolling characters, but I wonder what is the future for all the characters not built around dipping into the UMD class that don't want to become a normal reward.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

For the record, I wouldn't have known that gar and kenji were considering nerfing cot had they NEVER mentioned it on the official discord. I had a conversation with kenji about it briefly. My gripe was that almost everything I heard after that was from friends who are still on the 3.0 and knew I was invested as my current character was a cot. And again, I totally get why that would feel comfortable, with lots of people you know to know mechanics. I just wanted to point out how it leaves out some potentially good feedback is all.

[Curve]

It is also important to remember (to quote a smart friend of mine) "you can't nerf players". This means that it is the least mechanics savvy in the community that will feel the brunt of these current changes (nerfs) and additions (books, unannounced items) the most by way of not knowing how to rapidly adjust to an often changing meta, not having friends who will inform them of the new items, by loosing their investment of playtime in gearing, leveling and cultivating roleplay. At the same time the most mechanics savvy players will roll characters, figure out the new meta and effectively use/abuse it and what new items they can find.

[Anomandaris]

A couple of issues with the books:

-Lore is very difficult to get to 80 unlike 35 UMD which requires a simple UMD dump and perhaps drinking a CHA potion.

-All the solid and creative builds that came out of UMD no longer being mandatory have been nerfed too hard in the meanwhile for there to be any reason to play them over the dipping into the UMD variants ( ranger+ 3monk, pure monk, CoT+anything, high WM, Div + epic dodge gone ).

-Dipping into UMD becomes mandatory once again and by mandatory I mean if you're playing a build that doesn't go 35 UMD it's very likely you're weaker than those that do. This can't be good for the healthy environment of the game because the entire point of NWN is combining different classes together. Vanilla NWN fails at this but the lore change adjusts this issue. When one of the three classes becomes a must-have UMD class, then defeats the entire point.

-There is no real counter-play to instant timestop ( unless you get really lucky ). Before you could see somebody read the timestop scroll and maybe heal a little, go invisible/stealth, use timestop of your own, but now the moment you drop to badly wounded the opposing melee/harm cleric/you name it can insta-use the book and send you to the fugue. This is simply not fun. This also applies to instant mass haste ( why bring a mage when anyone with a book is instantly one?), instant premonition, instant mestils ( fighting an EDR build that can spam mestils isn't fun ), instant mindblank when a stun spell is being cast at you -- How do you counter this at all? You really don't.

We've gone full circle with the introduction of the books, and all the creativity that lore has given us is thrown out of the window. if this is the vision the development/administration team sees for the future of Arelith, I'm not in the least affected and can easily go back to many 3 rogue builds I played in the past which would now be stronger than before and I don't mind rolling characters, but I wonder what is the future for all the characters not built around dipping into the UMD class that don't want to become a normal reward.

The discussion about these books is a perfect example of the issues being raised with balance management.

When I first saw screenshots a little ways back I was amazed those made it into the loot table. These don’t “just help” non min/maxed builds to keep up, they help anyone who can hit 35 UMD. That includes those min/maxed that didn’t want to push for 80 lore, or those who did can now do a relevel for a much easier point of access through UMD. Or builds that were just fine without lvl 9 spells but we’re running 35 lore and 15 umd got a major power buff if they can hoard consumables.

Adding umd 35 books that give access to incredibly useful pvp tools is a big deal balance wise. These items are already being hoarded, UMD is being geared toward 35 as a staple and that’s not even talking about the absurd rods and other consumables out there like anti magic rod, gems of nullification that have no umd req.

Right or wrong, effective or not towards the intended purpose, it was decided by two people without as much as a whisper to anyone else. changes that heavily affect by balance should be managed consistently by roughly the same process.

[I will never sleep]

I don't know why the link to 3.0 was edited out of Kenji's post,

I don't really care about the 3.0 discord, or the usage of discord by developers as a form of communication; times are changing, and the way people use the internet and talk to each other has changed significantly from 2007. Forums simply do not fill the same role they did years ago.

and while this is arguably true- I've never seen a developer of any game ever be like "come talk to us on discord instead of through these official channels". This isn't to narc on the 3.0 people- most of them are fairly long term players and know their stuff. But I see, with ever increasing frequency, having the forums and official channels denounced very commonly in more unofficial circles for a multitude of reasons. I don't know why these elephants in the room are never addressed. I don't know why the community need be split this way and so incoherently. I don't know why transparency is only given when it is expressly asked for and otherwise buried in old discord (third party program) messages. It just feels very unprofessional, to me, though I get this is just a volunteer project.

--

As for actually on topic things:

I don't know why those books needed to exist. They were talked about in many circles for quite a while and made out to be pretty broken but the question just wasn't raised I guess due to aforementioned lack of transparency. I spent the better part of the last few months gearing up a umdless tristat weapon master just for those to be released and well, might as well dump everything and relevel into a umd dip to be "competitive", right?

I feel like if we want more character cycling (do we?) it should be less of a headache to gear one up. The frequency of changes instills me in a certain fatigue that makes me just want to stop keeping up. This isn't even addressing sometimes builds getting demolished to the point of needing a level 1 rebuild, because "build for it at level 1 or suck" is very real and prevalent on arelith, yet rebuilds are not.

I relate to Watchful Glare's post a lot - especially with the idea we're headed to MOBA style 'seasons' of ever-shifting metas. There's so much cool stuff here, and I certainly don't really want it to stop, but at the same I don't even understand what is happening anymore.

Sometimes, albeit rarely, the PGCC has a higher population than some actual main Arelith servers.

It just makes me wonder if I'm playing the same game or if half of Arelith's changes are because people 'main' PGCC and character spreadsheets, putting actual game time to the side, and then adjustments are carried out according to perpetual theorycrafting instead of reality.

Yes I'm aware that theory can swiftly carry to reality, like high-visibility issues like quarterstaff, but still I hope the distinction is made.

I know it's probably totally unintentional, and partly just humor on my part, but calling it a 'season' gave me some spooky Diablo 3 vibes.

I empathize with both of these comments greatly. It feels like the server has generally gone in a direction the last few years that I would say has harmed any kind of high investment roleplay for me, and more caters to the playstyle of only playing a character the time it takes them to grind up, get geared, and lose/win a couple pvps or hit the exact level+wealth combo they need to roll and attempt to get to their actual character.

And that to me just isn't a playstyle I care for.

[Kenji]

Hey guys,

Quick reminder: this is a feedback thread for the recent balance adjustment, not balance management or how the developers should approach balance. The devs technically don’t need any of your explicit permission to do any of this, they need Irongron and other server admins’ permission to do so. This is not a democracy, nor is it a republic. Speaking as if anyone other than Irongron has the authority to dictate where the server development process goes is really just preposterous and out of turn.

But we do value your inputs and feedbacks pertaining to the topic at hand. Some of us are taking our time to read and process your words here and I implore you all to stay on topic and save the words about our decision-making process for the administration team.

Again, if any of you have any more problems on how the balance adjustments process is made, feel free to send a private message to the Administration team and let them know how you feel.

Edit: or make another feedback thread about the balance management and how opaque/oblique the process is. Vent and complain over there, get that thread locked up after 10 posts. Just don’t do that here, please. Thanks.

[MalKalz]

I had a feeling I was missing come context lately hearing about some books here and there.

I don't know where else to ask this but what on earth is 3.0 and Main? Are there two official discords or something?

3.0 is an unofficial, player led Discord.

Our official Discord can be found in the header of the forums.

[Kaeldre]

Every character has three class slots, these are valuable. If you want to use the UMD books you have to sacrifice one of them.

If you want to keep all three, which many meta builds do, you can choose to invest into lore instead.

Neither invalidates the other, and both options remains strong choices depending on your intentions for your character.

[-XXX-]

Every character has three class slots, these are valuable. If you want to use the UMD books you have to sacrifice one of them.

If you want to keep all three, which many meta builds do, you can choose to invest into lore instead.

Neither invalidates the other, and both options remains strong choices depending on your intentions for your character.

The problem is with the Chronovodian Grimoire specifically. As Tarkus explained, this item grants access to the best version of Timestop that's superior to scrolls and the actual spell.
Furthermore, you don't even need UMD to use it - just play one of the planetouched award races.

[Kenji]

Barbarian Changes
Foreword
There are concerns in regards to the recent barbarian adjustments that they may be buffed too much on top of an already powerful kit. There are also questions in regards to why the development decision has decided to look at something that is obscurely relevant (or irrelevant) to their power level such as their passive AC instead of their damage output. This post is made in hopes of addressing such concerns and shedding some light on our approach.

Premise
Barbarians, due to certain heavy prerequisites for their class-specific feats, can only be optimized by a few races. Any other races that aren't "optimal" for barbarians are required to sacrifice one or even two integral feats to the barbarian class rather than only losing 1 or 2 AB/dmg in general.

The team's vision for the class is that any race can play barbarians and succeed, albeit the differences between the races, while still exists, are minute and don't infringe on "viability" in the Arelith PvE scene.

Approach
We reduce the prerequisites to certain class-specific feats, be it stat prereqs or level prereqs, let's list them out again:

• Mighty Rage: 20+ Barb lvl removed
  This allows Barbarian/Knights that generally don't go beyond 17 levels of barbarians to take this feat, while Barb/WM or deep barbarians aren't really affected by this change
• Thundering Rage: Lowered Str prereq from 25 to 23
  This allows small-sized PCs such as halfling and gnome to satisfy the prerequisite easier
• Constitution Modifier: Rage AB loss from not reaching 16/18 base con has been reduced to 14/16 base con, instead
  This allows races such as elves and 1-major gift races to reach easier.

Results
Refer to this Pre-adjustment and Post-adjustment stat spread spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
Reference builds:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Summary in general
We look at 3 archetypes, with 2 variants for the deep barb archetype (one with int, the other without)
1. Barb/WM (21 Barb/4 Ftr/5 WM)

• Unchanged for Dwarf
• HOrc gains 1 or 2 damage
• Human and Elf gain 1 rage AB
• Hin and Gnome gain 1 rage AB and 1 epic feat

2. Deep Barb (26 Barb/4 Ftr)
14-int variant

• Unchanged for Dwarf and HOrc deep barbs
• Human and Gnome deep barbs gain +1 fort and 30hp
• Hin and Wood Elf deep barbs can now get Thundering Rage

8-int variant

• Unchanged for Human, Dwarf, and HOrc
• Hin, Elf, and Gnome gets +1 fort and 30hp

3. Div Barb (21 Barb/6 Ftr/3 BG)

• Human gains 33 skill points and 1 AC
• Dwarf gains 33 skill points and 2 AC/saves and 1 dmg, but loses 30hp, 1 fort save, and 1 AB if using the after spread
• HOrc gains 2 AC/saves and 1 dmg, but loses 30hp, 1 fort save if using the after spread
• Hin gains 2 AC/Saves/Dmg but loses 33 skill points
• Elf gains 1 AB/AC/Saves/Dmg, but loses 33 skill points
• Gnome gains 1 epic feat

It's important to recognize that the spreadsheet does not cover reward races or uncommon barbarian races such as hobgoblins or orogs, or drow. But we are confident that the above spreadsheet should suffice in showcasing how the adjustments should affect the majority of the populace in terms of being able to build into barbarian with ease.

Summary
These changes have allowed hin, elf, and gnome to build easier into the barbarian class while not buffing the other races by a large margin. The tradeoff is well worth the racial diversity that comes with it. Further readjustments are always possible.

Concerns
The first thing to address is- Why do we look at the Dodge AC's reduction/removal? With these changes, the div barb archetype has the most to gain. If we were to reduce the dodge AC from barbarians, then the change will affect div barb the most, whereas the other archetypes do not really care for the loss of AC as they don't build for AC, to begin with.

Readjustments
If we deem the new Div Barbs have gained more than they should have, we should lower the innate Barbarian Dodge AC by 2.

If Barb/WM continues to be a problem after recent adjustments, then we should lower 2H dmg scaling after lvl21. Note that with Divine Power being added to Shaman's spellbook, and more adjustments to Shaman spellbook are to come, 2H Shaman Barbarians will be viable. With their usual spread of 27/3, which equates to an effective 21 barb level, this means the 2H dmg nerf will also affect the new shaman barbarians. This approach is to proceed with caution and will require more afterthoughts.

A side note on Barb/WM - their prominence comes from the reduced presence from high AC builds such as Div, Dex, or Both, due to the presence of high AB builds such as CoT or Hex that can get an effective 60AB vs their high AC at almost all times. With the aforementioned high AB outliers reduced in their passive effective AB, this may mean dex, div, or both may rise to prominence again. While barb/wm aren't necessarily weak or hard-countered by dex/div, they may not need adjustment after this first part of adjustments. We'll see how this all pans out in the coming months.

In Closing
With this post, I hope it sheds some light on the barbarian end and, in the end, allows everyone to move on whether they agree or disagree with the decision.

I will be posting more in regards to Monk and Healer, even though the latter wasn't touched in this part of the adjustment.

Edit: or I can choose NOT to post more about monk and healer so I can utilize my time to make the new weapon - Pikes - a thing, fix some bugs, or rework Cavalier script. Maybe make dinner and take care of my pregnant wife, too.

[Kenji]

Cleric: Healer Path
TL;DR:
- Remove Healer Path, turn all existing Healer path Clerics into Regular Clerics
- Introduce New Cleric Path
- No rebuild necessary. At most, it may require -relevel. Mainly -domain command is used
Existing "Healer" Healers -> Take new Path and Healing Domain to become the same healer mechanically but with more flexibility
BCleric Healer Monk -> Regular BCleric monk without taking new path but can still take Healing Domain to retain some old functionalities if they so choose so
Harm Spamming Healers -> Take new path, death and healing domain, something similar
!!!Regular Caster Clerics that didn't want to take "healer" path -> Take new path and embrace caster cleric culture without being dubbed a "healer"
- Communicate with and educate the player base. Let them know of these changes to minimize confusion about the Healer path's eventual removal.

Essay
The Healer path for clerics is a design from a time without access to Haks or new NWNX functions. It is currently limiting the design space of domains. Because whatever work is done for domains, healers can utilize that and then gain from its own kits while its intended drawbacks are circumvented via simple multiclassing into monks and/or casting Divine Power.

The original healer intended to cater to unarmored caster clerics that focuses on healing, but it can be turned into something else far more effective. There exists 2 main archetype healers that really steps on its intended purpose since its inception:
Battlecleric Healer/Monk using Divine Power -
High AC Healer/Monk that spams Harm -

The immediate question is: What's to stop the new path from becoming the old Healer path, then?
Fortunately, there already exists one example to learn from right in front of us: the healer path itself.

If we were to break down why healer path remains just as effective beyond being a caster cleric, the problem lies with two things:
Divine Power: raises the healer's BAB to that of a full BAB and thus negates the lack of weapon proficiency beyond simple.
Monk dip: allows dex and wis to AC that negates the lack of armor and shield

The follow-up question would be: Why not just disable Divine Power and/or remove monk dip synergy from the Healer path?
This would mean any existing battlecleric healer/monks or harm-spamming high AC healer/monks will be forced to remake their character should they decide not to be new path, an undesirable outcome.

So the solution is this:
Existing healers will become regular clerics once the path is taken out. In its place will be the new path that old healers can choose to become or not. They can then take Heal/Protection or Heal/Death domains to retain some of the original functionalities from the old healer path.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Thank you for taking the time to write this, I've been wondering a lot about what's going to happen. I'm curious what the caster cleric is going to look like, can you give some examples of how it would work? Or is it still in early planning phases?

[Exordius]

I to am curious about the new caster cleric path, can you offer any insights? Also when a healer path becomes a normal cleric will they gain armor proficiencies back automatically and how will they be able to accept the new path without a full rebuild?

[dominantdrowess]

Feedback: ::Divine Champion / 2-hander Script Synergy::

Divine Champion BAB Weapon Bonus: Does not Stack with "Two-Handed BAB +1" bonus.

My change should have been net-neutral when unbuffed. (I have 15 Divine Champion Levels, with max charisma penalty.)

Losing 1 BAB from Two-handed, and Gaining 1 from Divine Champion passive (15 levels - 2 from charisma's list) should have been the same AB as before:

But it isn't.

[LovelyLightningWitch]

Can we expect changes to swashbuckler and loremaster?

Since dex builds seem target of the balance changes.

[mash]

Barbarian Changes

[...]

Edit: or I can choose NOT to post more about monk and healer so I can utilize my time to make the new weapon - Pikes - a thing, fix some bugs, or rework Cavalier script. Maybe make dinner and take care of my pregnant wife, too.

I think this said all and more than needed to be. No further questions, thread can be closed.

[Irongron]

Barbarian Changes

[...]

Edit: or I can choose NOT to post more about monk and healer so I can utilize my time to make the new weapon - Pikes - a thing, fix some bugs, or rework Cavalier script. Maybe make dinner and take care of my pregnant wife, too.

I think this said all and more than needed to be. No further questions, thread can be closed.

Agreed. Definitely more than enough feedback here for the team to process. I'm locking this one too, until such time as the second part of this update is released.