Phylacteries

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AstralUniverse
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Re: Phylacteries

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:45 am

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:41 pm
I still don't like that death spells destroy objects in nwn
On one hand I dont like that a Necromancy spell affects objects which are things without mind body or soul. But on the other hand when speaking of Phylacteries specifically, technically there's some kind of soul energy in it that can be destroyed by necromancy, but then logically it would leave the Phylactery intact and empty. It's indeed a weird one.
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malcolm_mountainslayer
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Re: Phylacteries

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:11 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:45 am
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:41 pm
I still don't like that death spells destroy objects in nwn
On one hand I dont like that a Necromancy spell affects objects which are things without mind body or soul. But on the other hand when speaking of Phylacteries specifically, technically there's some kind of soul energy in it that can be destroyed by necromancy, but then logically it would leave the Phylactery intact and empty. It's indeed a weird one.
That's not a bad point, especially with how arelith phylacteries don't work at all how actaul ones do (destroy lich body, soul return to phylactery while lich body reforms. but the soul doesnt just chill in the phylactery constantly, its like permanent magic jar with a regenerating undead body for your host.

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Re: Phylacteries

Post by Kenji » Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:41 am

mourisson1 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:15 am
I feel like phylacteries being a bit of trouble for dexers, is just similar to locks etc being problematic for STR characters. It motivates people to either group up, or solve it solo in non-efficient way.
This generally summarizes the design intent.

It isn't about what any of us wants, but it's about what server culture we want to foster. Do we make it easier for all builds to solo, and thereby encouraging lonewolves? Or do we add certain obstacles and then ways to bypass said obstacles to encourage more group interactions?

Back to the proposed craftable Wyrd Stone, while it may not be as feasible for lowbie writs, with the option of crafting it being made available, we can assume art crafters can get requests out of these stones. Perhaps it'll enhance some of the Runecaster RP by allowing them to literally craft iconic rune items (spells on stones).

Worse comes to worst, it just means art crafters getting more stuff to put in their stores, or the craftable is a dud, and nothing changes.

CNS
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Re: Phylacteries

Post by CNS » Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:58 pm

Kenji wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:41 am
mourisson1 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:15 am
I feel like phylacteries being a bit of trouble for dexers, is just similar to locks etc being problematic for STR characters. It motivates people to either group up, or solve it solo in non-efficient way.
This generally summarizes the design intent.

It isn't about what any of us wants, but it's about what server culture we want to foster. Do we make it easier for all builds to solo, and thereby encouraging lonewolves? Or do we add certain obstacles and then ways to bypass said obstacles to encourage more group interactions?

Back to the proposed craftable Wyrd Stone, while it may not be as feasible for lowbie writs, with the option of crafting it being made available, we can assume art crafters can get requests out of these stones. Perhaps it'll enhance some of the Runecaster RP by allowing them to literally craft iconic rune items (spells on stones).

Worse comes to worst, it just means art crafters getting more stuff to put in their stores, or the craftable is a dud, and nothing changes.
The crux is how many Mithril Dust will it take to make

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Re: Phylacteries

Post by Void » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:34 pm

Kenji wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:41 am
Do we make it easier for all builds to solo, and thereby encouraging lonewolves? Or do we add certain obstacles and then ways to bypass said obstacles to encourage more group interactions?
"Encouraging group itneractions" does not mean more of those interaction are going to occur.

If the character ends up without a party most of the time, they'll continue to be without a party most of the time, except there's one more annoying thing to deal with.

Also, phylacteries should be probably made immune to destruction spell. As being able to one-shot a placeable vs others having to draing its hp with DR definitely doesn't sound right.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

ltlukoziuz
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Re: Phylacteries

Post by ltlukoziuz » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:55 pm

Void wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:34 pm
Also, phylacteries should be probably made immune to destruction spell. As being able to one-shot a placeable vs others having to draing its hp with DR definitely doesn't sound right.
That's exactly its purpose (and in fact, it's not even Arelith-unique - the spell does that in vanilla too. "This spell can target placeables, which will automatically fail the saving throw (no roll is made), and are destroyed (unless plot)."). And it IS the solution to everyone in this thread bemoaning that phylacteries are hard to bash. Going to Shadow Crypts as a lone rogue? Well, just grab a bunch of grenades, and ask a friendly cleric to make the scroll (hitting 50 lore is not that difficult if you have it in mind thanks to easy access to +5 lore items). Sure, it doesn't work for low level people (read - less than ~17-20 lvl), but honestly, more grouping in low levels should happen


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Re: Phylacteries

Post by Void » Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:38 pm

ltlukoziuz wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:55 pm
Going to Shadow Crypts as a lone rogue?
The talk was about all other content, and not the end level dungeons. So you aren't going to shadow crypts. You're going to cordor crypts, you're alone and you're level 7.

Also, the reason I started the thread was not exactly because they are "hard to bash", but because everything has a phylactery, which doesn't make sense from lore perspective. The mechanic is overused and it isn't fun.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Phylacteries

Post by ltlukoziuz » Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:46 pm

Void wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:38 pm
The talk was about all other content, and not the end level dungeons. So you aren't going to shadow crypts. You're going to cordor crypts, you're alone and you're level 7.

Also, the reason I started the thread was not exactly because they are "hard to bash", but because everything has a phylactery, which doesn't make sense from lore perspective. The mechanic is overused and it isn't fun.
Void wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:34 pm
"Encouraging group itneractions" does not mean more of those interaction are going to occur.

If the character ends up without a party most of the time, they'll continue to be without a party most of the time, except there's one more annoying thing to deal with.
I actually wanted to respond to that post in previous one I made but forgot. Well, if you will imagine that you're always alone, then you will be alone. But if you will try to create group interactions - they will appear. My own experience both in trying to find partners for writs as well as seeing others doing same once I get to epics, is that there are almost always people wanting to join up, and accepting to go wherever you need to go. Most of times, just sitting around in hub or next to registry agent for 30-60 mins is more than enough to find someone to party up.

If you will be negative about it, then of course there will be no one to interact with. But that's simply not the case. Not even in the so called "dead time" (and honestly, I would say aussy time isn't as dead time as eastern european/mid asia is, when you barely have 40-50 people across whole Arelith ecosystem), even then I could find folk. Sure, you might need to compromise (say, only do one of three writs together, or maybe choose a different path, and have to go to a place where you already have done the writ), but I don't think that's a hindrance a tiniest bit. After all - if end goal is RP and stories, then any interaction with another person should be so. A few ingame friendships started out like that, just hooking up on completely random writ goals.

---

EDIT: Side note: Why are you level 7 in cordor crypts? It's a 9-10 dungeon at minimum (and if its recommended level is set that low, then there should be a post to up it)


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Void
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Re: Phylacteries

Post by Void » Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:07 pm

ltlukoziuz wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:46 pm
Well, if you will imagine that you're always alone, then
It simply does not work this way.

Some people do not form connections easily, and no matter what you do, they won't easily party up. No matter the server, no matter the populace, regardless of mechanics you implement, they will spend most of their time solo. When they do form connections, it will be a small circle of people they already know. If those are not online, there is no party.

If you have not experienced anything like that, then you're not part of that group. It is not about "being negative", it is a player personality trait, which you can't fix by adding more mechanics. This also translates well into low-charisma characters.
ltlukoziuz wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:46 pm
EDIT: Side note: Why are you level 7 in cordor crypts? It's a 9-10 dungeon
Why shouldn't the character be in that dungeon? The lowest level at which it is possible to survive and clear the dungeon solo it is about level 6. With a rogue it is going to be harder, but likely is doable.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

ltlukoziuz
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Re: Phylacteries

Post by ltlukoziuz » Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:15 pm

Void wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:07 pm
Some people do not form connections easily, and no matter what you do, they won't easily party up. No matter the server, no matter the populace, regardless of mechanics you implement, they will spend most of their time solo.

If you have not experienced anything like that, then you're not part of that group. It is not about "being negative", it is a player personality trait, which you can't fix by adding more mechanics.
I'll admit I've been there myself back in the past, though not really anymore, and in fact, it's precisely because of all the positive reinforcement that the initial connections gave. I will echo others and say that we shouldn't cater to making everyone a lone wolf (in fact, the game is already too far into that imo), and absolutely any update that introduces more positive reinforcement for grouping should be welcomed.
Void wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:07 pm
Why shouldn't the character be in that dungeon? The lowest level at which it is possible to survive and clear the dungeon solo it is about level 6. With a rogue it is going to be harder, but likely is doable.
Because there are easier places which will be much easier and just as rewarding? Just because you can punch through the place while wasting tons of money on consumables to survive the place doesn't mean you should just hammer through it dumbly. Anyway, this point is digress to offtopic too much, especially because even if there should be phylacteries removed because of lore reasons, cordor crypts definitely has lore reason to keep the phylactery. Honestly, outside Gruumph the Shaman (an already way overtuned boss fight for the area it is in thanks to Acid Sheath and mass Dispel spam), and Manor of Mourn's boss (but that's high epic place where group is almost necessary, so moot point), I don't think there's a single phylactery that shouldn't be lore-wise (excluding UD because I dont know UD writs).


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Re: Phylacteries

Post by Void » Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:24 pm

ltlukoziuz wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:15 pm
I'll admit I've been there myself back in the past, though not really anymore, and in fact, it's precisely because of all the positive reinforcement that the initial connections gave. I will echo others and say that we shouldn't cater to making everyone a lone wolf (in fact, the game is already too far into that imo), and absolutely any update that introduces more positive reinforcement for grouping should be welcomed.
I disagree with that.

There are different play styles and "lone wolf" is one of them. Forcing a group mechanic onto lone wolf only gives them a reason not to play.

There's also nothing wrong with being a lone wolf character, as they'll still interact with others, when they need to. They'll still check and respond noticeboards, may build camps and such, and in doing so, they contribute to the world. And if a person is happy with the way they are and the way they play, why would you try to force them into a group?
ltlukoziuz wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:15 pm
Because there are easier places which will be much easier and just as rewarding?
Because those places are easier, there's no point in going there. Overcoming a challenge is a reward of its own.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Phylacteries

Post by ltlukoziuz » Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:32 pm

Void wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:24 pm
Because those places are easier, there's no point in going there. Overcoming a challenge is a reward of its own.
Okay, that one is on me. For some reason I thought you were the one to ask for nerfing to phylacteries initially, hence the arguments why they shouldn't be, but that was not the case once I took a look at start of this thread. Sorry for that ;)


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Re: Phylacteries

Post by Void » Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:49 pm

ltlukoziuz wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:32 pm
Void wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:24 pm
Because those places are easier, there's no point in going there. Overcoming a challenge is a reward of its own.
Okay, that one is on me. For some reason I thought you were the one to ask for nerfing to phylacteries initially, hence the arguments why they shouldn't be, but that was not the case once I took a look at start of this thread. Sorry for that ;)
I said that there's too many of them, it doesn't make much sense.
Void wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:59 pm
It would be nice to see fewer bosses with phylacteries.

When you meet the first one it is kinda neat, and if the opponent is a lich, it makes sense, but over time it feels like EVERYBODY has a phylactery. I'm kinda surprised treasure rat hasn't gotten one at this point.
I usually would be able to damage one even with a dexer, though for a dexer it will be "death by being pecked by a duck" kind of attack.

A huge number of bosses has a phylactery right now, and while one or two feel special, when you find 8th dude with a phylactery for no reason, you just sigh for more vial bashing time.

Somebody could design a tougher boss around phylacteries, if they really wanted to.

For example:
Make it twelve phylacteries. Put each into a different room. Add different challenge for each one of them. Traps, tough enemies, puzzles. Make phylacteries respawn on timer. Add teleport traps. Then a labyrinth. Make labyrinth rearrange itself from time to time. Make the whole thing no rest, no teleport, and cover half of it with anti-magic zone, lock the door behind people upon entry. Add turrets that zap anything that moves with random blast of fire, ice, acid, positive energy, negative energy, paralysis, dispell, slow, and mordekainen. Open bunch of portals to provide a stream of incoming enemies. Place bunch of enemies with immunity to magic, high DR and physical resistance. Add acid sheath on some. Then add the timer to the whole area, where if the party fails to clear it in specific time period, everybody dies within. Now that would be a lich that takes his safety seriously.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

malcolm_mountainslayer
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Re: Phylacteries

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:01 am

I don't mind some things are group mechanic oriented, but yeah some people are mot goimg to reliably have parties. Even on skal, whrn i instantly find a party, i find myself accomplishing less as i have to log by time first writ is over cause set up time ate into all my playtime. Ideally i rp and meet people on the road. I never have time for the post loot splitting either.

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Re: Phylacteries

Post by -XXX- » Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:24 pm

Kenji wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:41 am
It isn't about what any of us wants, but it's about what server culture we want to foster. Do we make it easier for all builds to solo, and thereby encouraging lonewolves? Or do we add certain obstacles and then ways to bypass said obstacles to encourage more group interactions?
I think that we're waaay past that point right now. If that is a genuine area design concern, then I'd say that the phylacteries might actually need a buff (!) as most PGCC enthusiasts can casually solo the overwhelming majority of Arelith's PvE content.

That being said, I find that the phylacteries rarely provide an actual challenge. Even for the dexers - they'll likely end up taking an eternity slowly chipping the phylactery away while they sit behind their untouchable AC. I find this design to be actually quite mean TBH, as it makes the player to waste their online time rather than interactively engaging them.

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Amateur Hour
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Re: Phylacteries

Post by Amateur Hour » Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:29 pm

It's worth keeping in mind some people are just always going to struggle to find groups for reasons entirely out of their control. If your playtime is between, say, 4 am and 8 am server time, you're going to have to get very lucky to find anyone who can help. Lone-wolfing may be necessary.

I think the new writ system, where higher-level players can help out lower-level ones without it invalidating the lower-level players' efforts, is a good step towards combatting that, though. It does take generously-minded players...but I'd argue that even with an extremely evil character, a good roleplayer can come up with a plausible reason to help out a newbie/lowbie with a writ, even if it's something like "watching you struggle with things that I blast through easily will amuse me."

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LovelyLightningWitch
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Re: Phylacteries

Post by LovelyLightningWitch » Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:48 am

Amateur Hour wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:29 pm
It's worth keeping in mind some people are just always going to struggle to find groups for reasons entirely out of their control. If your playtime is between, say, 4 am and 8 am server time, you're going to have to get very lucky to find anyone who can help. Lone-wolfing may be necessary.

I think the new writ system, where higher-level players can help out lower-level ones without it invalidating the lower-level players' efforts, is a good step towards combatting that, though. It does take generously-minded players...but I'd argue that even with an extremely evil character, a good roleplayer can come up with a plausible reason to help out a newbie/lowbie with a writ, even if it's something like "watching you struggle with things that I blast through easily will amuse me."
Another case may be overlapping playstyles.

If you and another person have a matching playstyle (slow crawl thru dungeon, heavy use of descriptions and such), and the only people available are those who just run ahead without any RP once you arrive at a dungeon...

You'll probably end up not grouping with them again, ICly citing their "suicidal recklessness" (which works quite well if you got a rogue as part of your duo, and the person you grabbed was some melee smasher who triggered all the traps.)

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Re: Phylacteries

Post by Void » Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:27 pm

LovelyLightningWitch wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:48 am
You'll probably end up not grouping with them again, ICly citing their "suicidal recklessness" (which works quite well if you got a rogue as part of your duo, and the person you grabbed was some melee smasher who triggered all the traps.)
On related note, when your character has a mark of destiny, that has an amazing effect on gameplay, as you won't really want to recklessly charge into anything.
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Nobs
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Re: Phylacteries

Post by Nobs » Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:50 pm

I think its a good laugh to see all them liches with their phylactery right there in open sight for every one to bash.

You would think that a lich is a bit smarter then that...

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