Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

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Curve
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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Curve » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:14 pm

Zavandar wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:50 pm
Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:46 pm
Fleeing is part of taking death seriously.
100%.
Sure. I don't think any reasonable person would say there is never a time to run away. I think what is being talked about is excessive running away, never giving anyone a chance to engage with your character in a hostile manner. We do many things in this game for the sake of what is fun over what is realistic. I'm just saying to try this one out every so often.
Void wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:57 pm
Most characters has many good reason to flee from potential dangers, and have no obligation to try talking it out. Because the most reasonable option in many cases is to run immediately. Also, thinking for too long means you might lose means to run, because the other party may be able to lock the area and it takes a split second for them to do it. You only need to expeirence teleport lock once to learn to lense away at any sign of trouble.
Yeah, I see where you are coming from and again I want to stress that I am not speaking in absolutes, sometimes you don't feel like dealing, sometimes you have time restraints, whatever. What I am talking about is best practice and ways to make the game more interesting and fun for everyone. Sometimes it is healthy to go out on a limb and trust that the risk of getting killed does not outweigh the potential fun of letting go, of giving your in-character enemy a chance to do something neat.
Void wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:57 pm
This kind of thing doesn't work if you're a monster on surface that just run into a full regiment of radiant heart.
This kind of thing also doesn't work well if you're a spy from the enemies of andunor who has been snooping on underdarkers for past two cycles and now finally has gotten spotted.
I don't know about anyone else, but when I go into the UD on a surfacer I hope for some form of conflict roleplay, and when I do the same as a monster character I hope for the same.

I could be wrong here, but when I see these arguments for not engaging unless your win is unquestionable, or you have the superior numbers I can understand how people perceive the server's culture of conflict to be. I'll say it again, you don't always have to be in a 40rpr mindset, you don't always have to be willing to lose, and you don't always have to be willing to invest 3 hours in capture RP. But, just give it a shot. Try letting loose a bit more often.

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by chris a gogo » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:15 pm

Teleportation.
Leave it alone if someone doesn't want to spend 20 mins listening to you monologue it's only fair they should have a way to avoid it.

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflic

Post by Duchess Says » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:23 pm

I don’t get the objection to fleeing one bit. If my character is a coward that is exactly what I am going to do. You can and should consider making someone run for their life a victory and trash their honor for it afterwards. Consider that the win.

You know there’s a third option besides running and logging if someone doesn’t want to fight… it’s to go limp and take the death without fighting back. There’s just no scenario where you can make someone enthusiastically engage in PVP if they don’t want it.

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Void » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:34 pm

Curve wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:14 pm
What I am talking about is best practice and ways to make the game more interesting and fun for everyone.
I prefer to maintain consistent character personality and not twist it too much for the sake of story turns. If the character would flee, the character flees.

You're already given a chance - few seconds before the other party starts running. You can use that moment of time to convince them to stay.
Curve wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:14 pm
I could be wrong here, but when I see these arguments for not engaging unless your win is unquestionable,
If the character is smart and ot bound by something, they'll try to avoid dying. And if they can't win they'll try to flee.
Fleeing means your character is being taken seriously, as a threat. Isn't that what the character would want?

Besides, they might return. With reinforcements in tow, which will certainly contribute to the story.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Emotionaloverload » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:41 pm

Zavandar wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:41 pm
When people feel like their options are "die now" and "die after being RP'd at for 5-10 minutes", I don't blame them for wanting to leave.
This.

Instead of changing teleport, it might be better served to change attitudes. Not every single conflict has to be "Now you die". Not every slight is pvp worthy. Being good or evil isn't good enough either. I would rather see build up being encouraged, expanded conflict rp being encouraged. I'm not sure how you'd do this beyond rpr. Teleport is not the problem. We need more trust and better storytelling.

Running away is a legitimate course of action for pvp. Unless the character is obligated to stand and fight (for honor or whatever), running away is entirely fine. You can use it in rp. Running away can have the same benefit to story as pvp. Its what you make of it.

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Eters » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:09 pm

The ability to opt out of PvP should always be open to players in my opinion, it should not be limited by by a 5 rounds timer or anything like that. Because what are you going to do in the 5 rounds that someone's fiddling with a lens? Tell them about the bee movie script? No, you'll kill them.

Arelith's current playerbase is jumpy not because of portal lenses, but because of the nature of the game mechanics themselves, initiative often means victory, and people will always seek, by one mean or another, to have that initiative. Such is further emphasized by how snappy some effects are. A barbarian's rage is instant, it's effective, and it's often deadly to whoever gets stunned by it. So as a player, it's probably logical to think "Why should I, when I have already stated my intent to fight, and I have respected the minimum requirement of roleplay before PvP, give away the chance of victory by letting X, Y or Z to use a clarity or a mind blank?" A timestop book is instant, almost impossible to counter and can settle a fight in 1 round or less, so why not make use of it?

As things currently are, the only way to have a meaningful conflict situation, is to have trust between players. You must trust that the dude on the opposite end of the screen is actually trying to build a story with you, not just stomp you, bash you and share your demise in a private discord or boast about your head in the halls of whatever settlement they're part of for eternity to come, then stuff said skull in a chest to show to every guest that comes to said house (Don't look at me, you know it's true.) And by experience, I have found that very few people are willing to build a proper narrative from conflict.

It's unfortunate but it is the current reality of the "PvP" aspect of the server, it's competitive like a MOBA at this point and everyone's going for "Exciting PvP where I crush 20 unwarded guys and claim myself as the top gamer in a 10+ old game." rather than give everyone involved a narrative and a story to tell after said encounter, and I've seen PvP and heard of it, and even been part of some of it in the last, year or so. And I can objectively say that the fights that left a lasting effect on the narrative of my character or its development cannot even be counted on the fingers of a hand. It's a rush, in the moment, and afterwards it ends up as a video in my shadowplay folder or a report to be written.

A time will come where you will have a lens and won't use it, an attunement potion and not use it, and still indulge in the narrative given to you by the opposite side, you will approach it with an open mindset, accepting both defeat or victory and going with whatever outcome is settled, you will either win and give the opposing person a narrative to grow upon and build their own character from, or you will be defeated and in your defeat you will be graced with a narrative that will make your character grow.

But that distant dream will only happen when the community will go above their current egos and learn to trust one another, find humbleness in themselves and focus on the larger picture rather than fleeting moment of OOC happiness from one won PvP or another. And until that day will come, the situation will remain the same as it is now.

But to speak about the topic at hand, teleportation is not foulproof, there are IC ways to stop teleportation from working, acquire them and make use of them, and accept that it is very difficult to stop a person that wants to run away, from running away.

For the characters which learned the behavior of their targets well, not even a lens is enough to finish an encounter, I had situations where I fled and my pursuer managed to learn the habits of my character's escapes and predicted where I shall lens, and followed me there and punched me in the face very, very hard. Just as escapes can be creative, pursuits can also be the same.

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by ZeroPointEnergy » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:59 pm

Honestly, I don't see the problem in letting people run away easily. The incentive's certainly there to be quick on the trigger to nail someone but outside of assassin contracts, I don't see what's the big deal.

Dead or not dead, they can always come back later with 6 people and call it a win. Whether you die or don't die, you can always razzle them while they're shopping in the crow's nest. The biggest downside is being deemed 'weak' as your head gets shown around to people or stuck in a stall.

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:47 pm

The comments in this thread both from players, staff and ex-staff kinda of make me question why -ward_teleport is even a thing. And in general this discussion is a bit confusing. If the problem is that people get 1-lined too often and arent given a chance to escape pvp (sometimes while being hunted by multiple different factions) then making lenses harder to use by some sort of delay would certainly make the problem worse. Or instead, if the problem presented is that people are too afraid to RP and just click a lens instantly as soon as things get hostile - well, I dont really see a problem there - Warding against teleportation is a thing, and besides no-where is really 100% safe, I like to remind. Escaping a hostile scene is perfectly IC legit thing to do, if you can click your lens in time. I wont deny that there's a problem of 1-lining in this server but changing how escaping pvp works isnt the angle to take here. And something to think about, if you are in a hostile scene and you're not offering the other side a way out other than "surrender or die" they *might* be less trigger happy with the lens. The problem I see is normally people click the lens because there is no alternative for the character ICly speaking.
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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:08 am

Teleport is not the problem. We need more trust and better storytelling.
I mean - this is the ultimate truth right here. But the problem is that it's a very difficult thing to instill.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Eyeliner » Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:31 am

It's been mentioned but we're not all in deep storytelling mode all of the time. If it's after work and I'm getting an hour of grinding writs in before bed I'm not going to be in the mood for tense RP or high stakes PVP. I just wanna chill and get in the killing monsters zone. If some longstanding enemy I need to avoid is around I may just play something else; if some rando my character has never met wants to start a fight just because then you'd better believe I am teleporting away. On the weekends when I have longer blocks to play and really get into it, yeah, let's draw it out. Maybe this isn't 50 RPR behavior but 50 RPR doesn't pay the bills and this is just entertainment to me so I'll put in the effort I can.

Anyway if someone is dodgy and keeps avoiding a fight there are myriad ways to pin them down. If they cheese the mechanics like logging out then tell a DM, if they keep teleporting but it's all part of a cat and mouse game then enjoy the moment. If someone ports out because your epic drow party caught them alone doing writs in Arelith Forest, I can understand that's frustrating but maybe they just weren't up for it. I dunno, this problem du jour doesn't seem that bad.

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Hazard » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:20 am

I experience this a lot. People using area transitions to escape while others are loading. People hopping servers. People being on edge and ready to attack at the slightest movement because they expect (correctly) that it will be a lens or attunement potion or teleport. This is normal. This is every day.

If I reported every time I saw this, I'd honestly be making reports nearly every time I play the game. Maybe it's the aussie time-zone. We do love our pvp down under... but there must be a better way.

Sub-dual and rope were a good addition, and an item people can throw on the ground to disable teleporting for a while could help, but as someone said it's basically standard practice for the problematic player to just AT and then escape. You can plan ahead for it sure, but that takes time and people and that's a lot of extra effort and responsibility put on a group of people doing the right thing, just to stop one person from doing the wrong thing.

I don't know the solution to this. Maybe instead of making escape too difficult (because this punishes players who just don't want to be ganked by someone too), we find a way to incentivize losing and make it fun and rewarding when done in the spirit of co-operation.

No one uses prisons anymore. Maybe if we did an overhaul to how the prisons are designed and how they work, they would get used. I think we could make prisons fun even for the prisoners. Some of my most memorable moments have been while in a cell, interacting with enemies through the bars and other prisoners, but these golden moments were rare and relied entirely on a very awesome person having not only captured you .. but you LETTING them.

It is much rarer now not just for a person to allow you to capture them and go along with it (almost unheard of), but also for the victor to even want to capture you, because they don't expect you to play along, they rightfully expect you to just respawn and come back after the 24-hour rule has lapsed, because that's Arelith. That's what happens here 9 times out of 10.

If we made prisons bigger, with dining halls, individual cells, general population, facilities all under protection of many (housing system) locked doors and teleportation warding, I think we could get people actually using them. Maybe even have little tasks to do in there, that generate some reward. A cuff item that gives a big debuff to attacking or casting, or the prison itself is a magically dampened area so no casting. Not being able to wield weapons with the (prisoner) tag. I don't know, just brain-storming, it would be a lot of work so probably not a helpful suggestion. Would make for cool "prison" meta too, like a monk not needing magic or a weapon to be threat to a guard.

All I know is that when taking (and interacting) with prisoners was more common-place, I found myself not only willing to be captured by guards or raiders or whatever, but sometimes EAGER to be. It also encourages IC opponents to roleplay with each other, and nurture the respect and trust they have for each other to deliver a narrative beyond "I win you lose."

We should try to encourage more capture RP and reasons for it, not only for the capturer but for the captured. Maybe a settlement generates gold upon capturing someone to simulate them being used for labor? The PC can get a message explaining that they are used for labor sometimes.

Okay rant over. What am I doing.

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by yoimtide » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:34 am

I've had more unpleasant situations than not in terms of narrative through conflict, but also some very good ones.

The best ones are when people aren't "playing with their food" and just tormenting you before they kill you, but instead try and make it interesting by giving you some kind of out or giving you something memorable to talk about in character.

I recall confronting someone who my character caught pickpocketing, and they just ... logged out. I cornered them, they realized I could still see them, and so they logged out.

There was a time when someone didn't even give me a chance to respond to their conflict RP after saying "if you don't leave right now I'm going to attack" and then attacked 2 seconds later while I was typing.

The bottom line for me is that the focus for RP conflict shouldn't be the conflict, but the story telling. If my character comes across a murder group that seems like they are just looking to collect heads, my character is going to leave.

And at the end of the day, if someone doesn't want to RP with me and leaves, then I'm glad they didn't waste my time or theirs.

I'd prefer no change to how teleport currently works, but I would like to see more people focus on the narrative rather than the conflict.
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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Basementfellow » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:45 am

the competitive moba comparison seems apt unfortunately. i find it pretty lame, and i dont even dislike mobas.

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:03 am

Zavandar wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:41 pm
When people feel like their options are "die now" and "die after being RP'd at for 5-10 minutes", I don't blame them for wanting to leave.

I also don't think them fleeing is even something that should be punished or looked down upon. Why would you, for example, sit there and let yourself be captured by people you're fairly certain will just torture and kill you anyway?

"To create a story," some people say. I'd counter and say being afflicted with a momentary bout of stupidity and suicidality is a strange story.

It's okay for antagonists to have to work for killing people.
I couldn't have said that better myself.

Besides, if it makes PvP perpetuators feel better, consider it a victory when your victim flees. After all, you can interpret that as an indirect admission that you are the better PvPer. Take the win and call it a day 🙃


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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by La Villa Strangiato » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:25 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:03 am

Besides, if it makes PvP perpetuators feel better, consider it a victory when your victim flees. After all, you can interpret that as an indirect admission that you are the better PvPer. Take the win and call it a day 🙃
Or you brought ten warded people to hunt down one person...
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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Arienette » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:47 am

Of the last 10 PvPs I have been involved in, about 7 have been like this:

I run into some random person or people from the “other team”. Characters I have never seen before.

I say something like “Not looking four trouble, let’s give reach other a wide berth”

The “other guy” agrees this is a good idea.

We part ways.

Minutes later they show up fully warded and / or with friends and proceed to one-line killbash.

I have learned that I have 2 reasonable options in these semi-frequent situations.

1. Killbash the “other side” while I have the advantage.

2. Unass the area and teleport away as quickly as possible.

Because I don’t want to be part of the server culture problem. I have begun choosing option 2. If you take that away I will be incentivized to kill on sight before the bad guys can hunt me down and murder me for the crime of being a human/drow/whatever.

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:10 am

I agree with the idea behind having items that can do -ward teleport. I also think a 60 second timer after transitioning might be good. I'm not touching the rest with a ten foot pole though :D Happy thanksgiving to all my fellow Americans!

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Skibbles » Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:00 am

I think that, whether the RP is PVP or not, if the first thing most people want to do in reaction to a character's presence is to promptly clear out... maybe the problem isn't with everyone else.

"Nowhere should ever be safe from me," is a mantra often said in some threads, and sometimes even verbatim. Should we really wonder why fear, anger, mistrust, and resentment is so palpable in the community if an ongoing concern is the ease/difficulty in which someone can feel another's wrath?

I don't even think the mantra is technically incorrect, and I'd sooner return to EVE Online than Pony Simulator (I made that up.. hopefully), but that it is said and sometimes so explicitly will never not be strange to me. Why is it so important?

I'm not sure what the solution is, but come to think of it I'm not sure what the problem is either. Sometimes I wonder if I'm even playing the same game as everyone else.
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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by ltlukoziuz » Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:28 am

I dunno if I just had all the good examples of how people should act, whether it's the locations I'm in that determined these outcomes, but I just haven't seen this be a problem. As a surfacer, I had:

Group of us walk into a single drow while going to dungeon. A bit of standoff, but it all fizzles into us leting them go (even offering a teleport back to underdark, which they refused and used own lens) and some heated RP inside our group, as not all agreed to the decision that our impromptu group leader chose
Later on, once we switched dungeons (because someone else was quicker than us), and we encounter the same drow plus two more people at the very last room of dungeon. Once again, a standoff, everyone clearly warded because dungeon... and nothing, because everyone remembered how it all went last time. We just all eyed each other down, a bit more heated discussion by one of us about whether it's the right thing to let em go, and we all shuffle out the portal fixed in the dungeon, both groups.
----
Most of times when I ask an underdarker to leave a surface settlement, it ends up into eventually complying. They often try talking down, sometimes some arguments arise, sometimes I hostile mid talks to show that they're one offense from getting forcefully kicked out, but all leave, on walking, not even teleports (even though technically it would be acceptable outcome at that situation). There was one exception, but even that one was so well mannered and mature, that I can hardly count it as exception. Folk come in, after some discussion and talks on law are asked to leave, and while one person seemed to comply, the other one was too heated, so I asked them out of the settlement gates to have a duel. They agreed. We left the settlement, even did the 3-2-1 countdown and lashed out at each other. (this in fact was the only time it ended up into actual PvP blows instead of just conflict talks) Quick subdual later (I didn't even go for the kill or roping down/imprisoning), the person does leave in a portal, and I'm really sad that never got followed up. Hoped it would be great to actually someone hold a grudge on settlement and start working to it, but nope.
----
There was one time where above situation literally turned into mexican standoff. Spot a drow and duergar entering settlement and walking straight into tavern to shop, ask another guard who was with me to be my backup and walked in to sort this out. I ask them to leave, they first insist that they're here to shop and nothing else but upon repeated request they follow it up - with third person RP'ing having blade against my back, just coming out of stealth. In turn, my back up stealths out and appears behind the third guy, knife also against their back. Have a literal standoff, ready to swap into weapon and start it all out (at least I had already ! by that point, but didnt do anything yet, not sure on rest) - and they decide to back out. We lead them out, the other guard decides to track em a bit, I just stayed to watch over town - and that's it. No gank squads, no nothing.
----------------------



What are all above situations about? About just giving it a chance. Not everyone is here to kill, murder and maim. Conflict RP is miles better than just going into 1-sentence killbashes. And if it still happens, just report. The things won't change if you won't be the proactive person to move that change. And even if it's not something that's an offense usually, it's building a case, and checking for repetitive behaviour. The DMs are not omniscient, and if we don't give them reports, then they won't always be able to catch these out and give a talking down/more measures if necessary. It's the same for situations where people flaunt death (heck, once a person literally used a phrase "they murdered me" less than few hours after incident, while still standing and RPing out (at least they RPed an injury and were being healed during that time, but then after leaving, went back into action)), it's the same for other situations where it's something not going as server culture is expecting it to be. It's hard to expect things to change if there's no reinforcement, especially positive and proactive one.


P.S. Sidenote - I have seen a few people use what I would consider a nuclear option - a description mentioning that they're not interested into any kind of PvP and would try their hardest to get out of it (one person into even going into rant of being a tired parent). Well, it is an option, but if you do go to places where conflict is possible (like surfacer walking in UD or opposite), well... You're kinda bringing that upon yourself.


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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by LovelyLightningWitch » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:16 am

Arelith is an amazing server for simulation. We have intricate crafting, the most advanced settlement system in all of NWN1 and NWN2.

Why the hell is there an attempt made to ruin what Arelith is amazing at (simulation) for sake of PvP?

It's already practically impossible to find decent RP. It's always PvP with underdarkers or PvP with that faction or this faction. Characters feel like they don't have a life outside of PvP.

I utterly hate PvP, albeit is not the most hated concept I have. It does enable the other two, which are identity death and permadeath/permamutilitation/permamaim. People who PvP will inevitably harrass you OOC and IC to drive you to take a permadeath or shame you for daring using Regenerate to fix their dumb scars.

Why the hell do you feel obligated to force people into situations they are uncomfortable OOC?

Teleport lenses, yoink and teleport allow me to avoid dealing with such. Let me focus on simulation and enjoying the intricate mechanics this server provides for roleplay without DMs.



As for surrendering.

Great. Surrendering as an elf to a drow. Or some fiend cultist. Either it's getting enslaved, or sacrificed and harrassed into taking a permadeath because "lolth ate your soul" or "Orcus ate your soul."

I don't care about conflict. I loathe conflict. It still gets imposed onto me if I want to say, attend to my duties as a lay-servant of Angharradh and hunt undead near the Nexus or Wardstone with my partner. Or just even being around the elven settlement and walking through Guldorand can lead to abyssalists going to try and kidnap you.


My focus is on religious roleplay, on mentoring (half)-elves on elven customs and traditions. I stay out of conflict, I stay out of PvP. But apparently that's not good enough because people don't like not being allowed to go out of their way to emote how they carve an elven ear off an Angharradite's head and then proceed to shame the Angharradite when she reads a Regenerate scroll to grow it back.

Or claim that you can't play a good aligned PC (who does her religious duty by fighting NPC vampires and liches) unless you pvp drow!

P.S. Sidenote - I have seen a few people use what I would consider a nuclear option - a description mentioning that they're not interested into any kind of PvP and would try their hardest to get out of it (one person into even going into rant of being a tired parent). Well, it is an option, but if you do go to places where conflict is possible (like surfacer walking in UD or opposite), well... You're kinda bringing that upon yourself.
Just being an elf and going to Nexus Falls will inevitably have drow attack you.

Or being an elf and going to the Weatherstone.

Or being an elf and spending time around Minmir (you also get banites and infernalists this way! Extra fun! Super motivating to log in)

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Imperatrix » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:42 am

LovelyLightningWitch wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:16 am
Great. Surrendering as an elf to a drow. Or some fiend cultist. Either it's getting enslaved, or sacrificed and harrassed into taking a permadeath because "lolth ate your soul" or "Orcus ate your soul."
I am pretty disinterested in this thread but I wanted to address this because I have heard similar sentiments raised in other places.

Becoming a slave or permakilling your character is always the choice of the player. It doesn't matter if they kill you, capture you, drag you to the slave master, or smack you on an altar of Lolth, the decision is ultimately yours and you don't have to do it. Nothing makes me more furious on this server than people acting as though someone is somehow obligated to accept the terribly implemented system that is slavery just because they lost PvP, especially since it's usually a trap that new players who don't know any better get pulled into.

I will say that I have played here for years and I have never personally been harassed into accepting either of these outcomes, but if it actually happens, put them on your -notells blacklist and report them to the DM Team.

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Watchful Glare
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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Watchful Glare » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:13 am

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:46 pm
Zavandar wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:41 pm
When people feel like their options are "die now" and "die after being RP'd at for 5-10 minutes", I don't blame them for wanting to leave.

I also don't think them fleeing is even something that should be punished or looked down upon. Why would you, for example, sit there and let yourself be captured by people you're fairly certain will just torture and kill you anyway?
This is a good point. Fleeing is part of taking death seriously.
Why would you RP capture at all, then? In all likelihood, they will just torture and kill you anyways. Why RP something that puts your character on the backfoot at all?

I agree that fleeing is part of taking death seriously, however. I only disagree with how easy it is at the moment. And it is also coming from someone that's played characters that can bypass this mechanic entirely and deny others escape, but I'm aware there are others that have experienced this and I see their point.

I've been reading through the answers in this thread and I agree that teleportation should be on some sort of cooldown. Where you activate it, and it triggers in five rounds if you stand still, like climbing.

The block teleportation at the moment means it can be avoided by bringing other characters in your party and turning the interaction effectively into a gank, because you need it in order to guarantee that your target will not flee and will RP with you in that disadvantaged position that no one wants to be in. Otherwise if you want to capture them and RP with them in that situation, the optimal thing is to one-line them before they can lense out just in case, in which case they can either accept capture and RP elsewhere or you get the consolation prize that you killed them and they're dead at least.

And I have seen people get one-lined, it's lame, but it's not against the rules. So it will continue to happen. It's not even characters I particularly enjoyed, mine hated them and greatly enjoyed their ignominous demise but OOCly it's a turn off. And when you see it happen it leaves you with this feeling that if your character is in a similar situation it better be quick on the draw. It's either lense or be killed. Not always, no, but the feeling lingers when you see it happen.

The balance then is in favor of those who have access to a regular group go to hunt people, and knowing your character is in relative safety unless you see a group of enemies in your server of choice.

To anyone without it, things would change little. If you still want to escape you have to make a run for it with someone else on your tail. Either lose them by stealthing, turning around a corner, outrunning them through a dangerous place, or reach an actual leyline before them. All valid.

Escaping is at the moment run through a transition and lense while the rest haven't loaded yet. Which also encourages killing them before they have the chance to do so.
Last edited by Watchful Glare on Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Biz here was a constant subliminal hum, and death the accepted punishment for laziness, carelessness, lack of grace, the failure to heed the demands of an intricate protocol.

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Hazard
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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Hazard » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:15 am

Yeah, anything like slavery, permadeath, disfigurement is totally up to you.
If you're using regen/gres to restore parts of your character, that's totally fine.
Anyone trying to pressure you into anything along the lines of the above mentioned should be reported.

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Watchful Glare » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:40 am

Skibbles wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:00 am
I think that, whether the RP is PVP or not, if the first thing most people want to do in reaction to a character's presence is to promptly clear out... maybe the problem isn't with everyone else.

"Nowhere should ever be safe from me," is a mantra often said in some threads, and sometimes even verbatim. Should we really wonder why fear, anger, mistrust, and resentment is so palpable in the community if an ongoing concern is the ease/difficulty in which someone can feel another's wrath?

I don't even think the mantra is technically incorrect, and I'd sooner return to EVE Online than Pony Simulator (I made that up.. hopefully), but that it is said and sometimes so explicitly will never not be strange to me. Why is it so important?

I'm not sure what the solution is, but come to think of it I'm not sure what the problem is either. Sometimes I wonder if I'm even playing the same game as everyone else.
In addendum to my last post, I don't think it's as prevalent as it may seem. I've been playing for over two years and I've not been in that many PvP situations.

The last thing related to PvP I experienced was a situation where my character got one-line killed by someone that showed up hyper warded, (accidentally subdued, turned into some improptu smack talk to make up for the awkwardness of it, and then straight out killed) and then offered to RP a capture after a bit. And I decided to go ahead and RP it because that is what I considered to be narratively better, talked it out and we agreed on retconning the death as a capture because it would make little sense.

Amusingly, for the comments about "Why would you ever RP a situation in which your character is not in a position of power, they'll just be killed and tortured anyways." He wasn't neither tortured, nor killed. He didn't have a good time considering the situation he was in, but he talked his way out of it and lived.

I suspect him not having a "Death before dishonor, I will never compromise, think I'm afraid of you? You're pathetic, look at this scrub trying to act intimidating just because he got the jump on me. You think you're tough? I'll just respawn" attitude had something to do with it.

That in turn made for a better RP with everyone involved as we actually get a story going beyond 'hey look whose head I got' as Wenchslayer put it in his first post.

The player that did the capture messaged me OOCly about it being an immensely enjoyable experience, as well as the others that were brought in to interact with my character during it, and I agree it was a lot better that way. It just comes with an undersanding that your character will not always be the best, sometimes things will not go their way. The transition-lense upon conflict, or the 'I fear nothing, I will die a honorable death, my ancestors are smiling upon me!' smells to me of "I don't want to RP defeat or acknowledge this. I'll either lense, or respawn and ignore it."

As a consequence, the only way for your character to enforce any level of (redundant, I know) consequence or situation on the other character where they don't have the upper hand but yours does, is to kill them on the spot because that is as much as they're willing to compromise themselves and it doesn't require consent.

And you better do it fast because they'll lense out otherwise.

Which leads into a frustrating situation, either for the one that got one-line killed, or the other one that had their target pop a lense and flee on the spot because they decided to lengthen the RP.

Is it always like this? Likely not. But it happens.
Biz here was a constant subliminal hum, and death the accepted punishment for laziness, carelessness, lack of grace, the failure to heed the demands of an intricate protocol.

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Void » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:45 am

LovelyLightningWitch wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:16 am
As for surrendering.

Great. Surrendering as an elf to a drow. Or some fiend cultist. Either it's getting enslaved, or sacrificed and harrassed into taking a permadeath because "lolth ate your soul" or "Orcus ate your soul."
Speaking of which, the game could use additional suicide option aside from -unrelent. Because in some cases rather than being captured it makes more sense for a character to end their life on the spot.

As for people trying to pressure you into permadeath, report them.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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