Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

[Wenchslayer]

I have noticed as a character that occasionally engages in conflict that players have been resorting to almost no roleplay at all before killing each other. This creates a situation of negative feedback that just kind of results in mindlessly pressing character skill keys when you see someone that can remotely be justified for killing since they'll probably do it to you too!

This kind of creates an environment where it's hard to go out on a limb and try to tell an interesting narrative beyond 'hey, look whose head I got guys!' There's far more interesting things that can be done prior to a mechanical conflict that can be done then killbashing.

I think part of the problem is teleportation mechanics. The teleportation mechanics in Arelith are extremely easy to acquire, and very strong. Within 1 round out of combat, a player can easily leave a situation that would cause them to otherwise have to resort to dying or other unpleasant results.

I've made a point of not using these teleportation mechanics at all recently and it's been a eye opener as to just how jumpy the general player base is in PvP as a result of these mechanics. I haven't had a single situation where I have gotten any result but one sentence followed by combat. And it's kind of a shame that I as a player have been going out on a limb despite this since I've been pretty much just punished continually for doing so.

If Portal Lenses had five round timer (Like a hearthstone in World of Warcraft) And other things like mage teleport and attunement potions had much longer times before they were activated, I think it would do much to discourage this 'Simply kill them before they teleport away' attitude that seems to utterly permeate the player base as a whole.

While these mechanics of teleportation are often said to allow players to avoid uncomfortable situations, that's not really true. It's more of a creator of these problems since antagonists feel denied by what are effectively, very abusable mechanics to avoid problems. This creates a direct contradiction between expectations and rewards (Roleplay before conflict, and managing to successfully 'win' the conflict.)

Reduce the effectiveness of these items and people won't really have an excuse anymore for why they just keep killing people without any roleplay beforehand. Quality of interactions will increase as a result.

[The GrumpyCat]

Hello.

So I'll begin by saying I'm actually not against the idea of a timer for portal lenses/attunement potions, or indeed Greater Teleport. (As a note - if we did this maybe Epic Teleport enabled you to use -teleport and/or Lenses without the timer? That'd be a nifty extra bonus.)

Keep in mind though that if someone is so eager to escape conflict in the first place, they may not neccesarly give you great rp afterwards if they loose it. Another key component is trust, and sometimes that's in short supply.

It's an interesting idea, and not a bad one.

[Void]

I think part of the problem is teleportation mechanics. The teleportation mechanics in Arelith are extremely easy to acquire, and very strong. Within 1 round out of combat, a player can easily leave a situation that would cause them to otherwise have to resort to dying or other unpleasant results.

Teleportation mechanic can also be relatively easily disabled for the entire area. The the situation becomes much more dire for the person who planned to run away, as they'll have no easy escape.

[Wenchslayer]

I think part of the problem is teleportation mechanics. The teleportation mechanics in Arelith are extremely easy to acquire, and very strong. Within 1 round out of combat, a player can easily leave a situation that would cause them to otherwise have to resort to dying or other unpleasant results.

Teleportation mechanic can also be relatively easily disabled for the entire area. The the situation becomes much more dire for the person who planned to run away, as they'll have no easy escape.

Not. Really. About 70% of PvP escapes amount to 'Run into a loading screen and teleport out before your enemies load in after you. It's incredibly easy to do. The feedback I offered would render this strategy no longer effective.

-Ward teleport is a very rare skill to have and fairly limited in application. If there were items that did the same, it might be easier to note. As it is it requires three feats and an epic level character.

The whole point is to increase quality of interaction by giving people more viable options to escape conflict by not having one that is just overwhelmingly the best . Right now there's basically one viable option, and it's teleport out.

[Morgy]

It is super easy to avoid consequences by running out the zone, then lensing, whilst your opponent might be RPing at you.

I agree it really puts me off trying to create a cool situation, or planning an elaborate ambush, when it’s so easy to vanish every time you eventually manage to track down a PC.

No one -has- to RP with you, but there are characters out there who cause or involve themselves in a lot of conflict, but do not grace you with the opportunity to hold them to account for it.

I believe lensing/teleporting/etc should be on a charge up that breaks with combat too, because I am definitely seeing people becoming more twitchy to attack purely due to this issue.

[Void]

Not. Really. About 70% of PvP escapes amount to 'Run into a loading screen and teleport out before your enemies load in after you. It's incredibly easy to do. The feedback I offered would render this strategy no longer effective.

It is not if the other party knows what they're doing, meaning they'll put potential escapee into the corner without a chance of escape without triggering an AOO or worse.

The only time I ever tried this escape tactic, I ended up dead due to amazing nwn pathfinding (also bad gear, and well placed enemy weapon master).

The reason why people run away is because in case of pvp it is highly likely that the attacker has masters degree in nwn1 mechanic, maximum possible gear, and ending up dead means you'll be out of business for a while. Fugue timer for pvp 20 minutes, and then you'll spend about a hour recovering your stats. Also, once they talked to you you've roleplayed hostility and are allowed to attack.

So the whole endeavor is not worth it and it is in general a better idea to abscond. Then, perhaps, return with a lot of friends. I believe the timer is not going to solve any of it.

[mourisson1]

Fugue timer for pvp 20 minutes,

Wait what? I wait like 5 minutes after I die in pvp

[Zavandar]

I think when there are situations such as people putting bounties on all surfacers in Andunor as well as the very obvious targeting of people with quotes around their names, the ability to escape that is good.

[Curve]

No one -has- to RP with you, but there are characters out there who cause or involve themselves in a lot of conflict, but do not grace you with the opportunity to hold them to account for it.

Often the answer to this is, 'these types of things will be reflected in someone's RPR' but, I don't see that happening. Rather people with high RPR and a tendency to avoid consequences play the system and the 'what about them' game with DMs.

There is a fine line between helping to ensure conflict is able to be resolved and allowing aggressors to have free reign. While I empathize with the OPs position I guess I would rather err on the side of providing an out to players who want it rather than erring on the side of helping see PvP end in death.

Our better RPR angels would suggest that letting people go if they seem so disinterested in mechanical conflict is the way to go, but people do cheese out of consequences with this mechanic and their role play can reflect that. Also, often times players see their enemies in a bad light when a more neutral party can see both sides of the situation much more clearly and blame is not so simple. I don't see a clear answer and think it boils down to opinions.

That being said, I would urge players to report players who are legitimately and constantly (more than once.) who use cheesy tactics to evade consequences. I would also urge DMs to craft a stance on players who do the same. Decide: is it an issue? Should we consider dropping RPR when players do this? Should we be more liberal with our actions relating to scoffing at in character accountability.

[Aradin]

Wait what? I wait like 5 minutes after I die in pvp

The higher level your character, the longer the fugue timer. It's likely you're only waiting 5 minutes because you have a low-level character.

As to the OP: I have mixed feelings about this. Part of me agrees with the premise entirely and supports a world where using a portal lens, casting a teleportation spell, drinking an attunement potion, or any other mode of instant transport takes x seconds instead of 1 action. Consequences for your choices, more immersive conflict, so on.

The other part of me says that if people want to roleplay with you they will, and no adjustment to teleportation or sprint mechanics or what have you is going to have a grand effect on that. Generally speaking I've found you'll garner a response from those you attempt to PVP if 1) the narrative you present is engaging enough for the other side to want to engage in return, and 2) if they're the kind of player who wants to engage in PVP/conflict at all.
In my experiences on the server so far as a member/showrunner of various conflicts, it's kind of a crapshoot as to guess which people will want to engage with you in random PVP. For longer plots you can ask people OOC if they're interested in being involved, do a bit of research to find the players who are up for an engagement, but for one-off situations where you're finding someone on the road, it's anyone's guess as to whether that player is someone who wants to engage in conflict, or is someone who comes home from work with only a couple hours to bash some monsters in dungeons and dying would have a negative effect on their evening, or is someone who gets stressed out by PVP, etc.

In this train of thought the question turns to an overall ask about server culture. In the theoretical situations where all the get out of jail free cards for PVP are removed and people are unable to flee from combat (let's say 85-90% of the time), does that make a better server? Does conflict being less escapable force people to be more cautious about leaving the safety of settlements, bringing a greater sense of realism to threats like denizens of the Underdark? Are PVP hounds going to start killbashing people more frequently than ever before because victims can't get away? What are the greater implications of making conflict much less escapable? Do we see 'gaming the system to avoid the consequences of your actions' less because it becomes less possible, or do we see new methods to do so sprout up to replace the ones lost by more stringent teleportation usage?

All in all, not sure which side I'm on but I like that you brought this up. Looking forward to watching this discussion.

[Edens_Fall]

I would prefer no change.

As it stands in most PvP (From my experience) is one side heavily outnumbering the other while being fully warded for battle. The other side (me) is not prepared for battle and alone. Being able to escape, which is what anyone would do in such a situation, is a nice option to have. Doesn't always work either I might add.

As far as limiting RP . . . eh? Most conflict RP in such a situation boils down to "You're a monster. We don't talk or make deals with monsters." *KB & end scene*

[Archnon]

Using mechanics to correct for bad RP is a rabbit hole not worth going down. The reality is, if you make lensing harder, the real troublemakers will just log out, which incidentally is also not an uncommon way to escape pvp that is very hard for the DMs to track (it wasn't my fault, I crashed) . At the same time, plenty of characters escaping is part of that characters MO. They are acting in character.

Be the RP change you want to see in the world. Engage in dialogue. If they run, so what. File a report with the relevant in character authorities. Take a screenshot of the character so you can give a super accurate description. Screenshot their description and incorporate it into your description. Build it into you character arc and take a leap of faith that they are doing the same and not just cheesing it. I mean, they could have just logged out.

[Drowboy]

I think when there are situations such as people putting bounties on all surfacers in Andunor as well as the very obvious targeting of people with quotes around their names, the ability to escape that is good.

This. If someone doesn't have a reasonable expectation to get anything good out of you, forcing them to sit there isn't going to be beneficial to either of you.

See also what Grumpycat said. In my experience if someone is that desperate to get away from playing with you, let them, neither of you were going to have fun otherwise.

Edit: frankly this is the same discussion as death rules and as was had last time lenses got nerfed. At the end of the day there is no version of inescapable PvP/hardcore death penalties that are going to please everyone, because if there was those full loot semi permadeath servers wouldn't be dead and we wouldn't be having these discussions here. It's not what people want, but maybe it's what they think they want in the moment.

[The GrumpyCat]

Rather people with high RPR and a tendency to avoid consequences play the system and the 'what about them' game with DMs.

Given that RPR is invisable and we are not transparent with our cases, I'm intreaged by how you came to this conclusion.

That being said, I would urge players to report players who are legitimately and constantly (more than once.) who use cheesy tactics to evade consequences. I would also urge DMs to craft a stance on players who do the same. Decide: is it an issue? Should we consider dropping RPR when players do this? Should we be more liberal with our actions relating to scoffing at in character accountability.

I agree that this is a discussion to be had. Keep in mind however, that much of our information comes from players. If you feel someone is consistently using teleport to avoid all consequences of their actions, and you want us to take that into consideration, you'll have to let us know. But also keep in mind that such is not illegal though - as mentioned, it may be taken into account in RPR reviews.

Using mechanics to correct for bad RP is a rabbit hole not worth going down. The reality is, if you make lensing harder, the real troublemakers will just log out, which incidentally is also not an uncommon way to escape pvp that is very hard for the DMs to track (it wasn't my fault, I crashed) . At the same time, plenty of characters escaping is part of that characters MO. They are acting in character.

Be the RP change you want to see in the world. Engage in dialogue. If they run, so what. File a report with the relevant in character authorities. Take a screenshot of the character so you can give a super accurate description. Screenshot their description and incorporate it into your description. Build it into you character arc and take a leap of faith that they are doing the same and not just cheesing it. I mean, they could have just logged out.

There's some truth to this for sure. That said I would point out that someone logging to avoid pvp once might (MIGHT!) Be believed once if they claimed it was a crash... once. Thereafter I don't think it's something we'd swallow.

All your other points hold some good truth however.

One thought however.
To teleport out of the area you either need someone with three feats OR no less than two possible items (portal lenses and attunement potions - and the former of these is widly avaiable in npc stores, if rather expensive.)

Maybe one thing we could do - to make the playing field fairer, would be introduce a -ward (teleport ward) item? Certainly a craftable one, and maybe even one purchasable from merchants? I

[Void]

Fugue timer for pvp 20 minutes,

Wait what? I wait like 5 minutes after I die in pvp

Assuming that's true, someone has to fix the wiki, as it lists 20 minute timeout timer for pvp, and always did.

However, you'll be still dealing with respawn stat penalty afterwards, which at high levels can be very long. I think it takes at least half an hour for your stats to recover if not a full hour.

------

It is also worth keeping in mind that if people can't teleport, then they can still disconnect if they REALLY don't want to interact (that's not a good behavior, of course). The lens is not instant in its current form either, you need to interact with a dialogue and (IIRC) that requires you to be out of combat, then there's cycling through all the possible destination.

[Curve]

Rather people with high RPR and a tendency to avoid consequences play the system and the 'what about them' game with DMs.

Given that RPR is invisable and we are not transparent with our cases, I'm intreaged by how you came to this conclusion.

I have played on Arelith since 2009ish and have had countless conversations with players and DMs about their own experiences and impressions with the way RPR drops are and have been handled over the years. I think it would be uncouth to list any specifics and because of that I should not have even brought it up. So- withdrawn from the public record, unless you would like to have a private conversation about this.

Edit* After stewing on it for a bit I think that while I think player's who see other players consistently cheesily escaping repercussions by any means should report it so that the DMs (who are in the best position to judge can do just that) the players also needs to realize that this kind of behavior is just how people do sometimes. Players get nervous and want to run, players make mistakes, players are sneaky in good and bad ways- Altering your perspective from "Oh boy what a trash player for running with a lense" to "Foiled again. How can I change so that this player wants to engage in good faith PvP" is the only real beneficial change that I can see being made.

[Scurvy Cur]

It is also worth keeping in mind that if people can't teleport, then they can still disconnect if they REALLY don't want to interact (that's not a good behavior, of course).

Presumably "well, even if we disable this feature, they can always commit a bannable offense instead" is not an argument that you are advancing seriously.

The lens is not instant in its current form either, you need to interact with a dialogue and (IIRC) that requires you to be out of combat, then there's cycling through all the possible destination.

Without wading into the pros and cons of an activation delay, this isn't entirely true.

Once the lens dialog opens, nothing short of dying will close it. Since the lens activates at wand/special item speed (fairly close to instant), you can get away more or less instantly provided you are out of combat when you activate it. It's also worth noting that dropping from combat is often as simple an exercise as holding down the w key for a few seconds, since the game is pretty quick to consider you "out of combat". 6 seconds of not being attacked/making a save/etc is enough.

I think this is actually part of the problem. It creates an incentive to pull the trigger on your lens the moment hostile settings go out (or even instead of responding IC to your opponent), because the longer you wait, the less guaranteed your instant escape is.

Also, there's no need to "cycle through destinations". Your first entry in your -portal_ord list should always be a safe teleport destination for precisely this reason.

[Dreams]

If your RP is compelling and enjoyable, hopefully people won't just flee it immediately. If it seems like it is coming across in bad faith, maybe they will. Who cares? There are ways to counter stuff like this. Plan ahead, get one of those methods available. I mean it's not like someone fleeing via portal is any different to hiding away in a quarter/ship all the time.

[The GrumpyCat]

If your RP is compelling and enjoyable, hopefully people won't just flee it immediately. If it seems like it is coming across in bad faith, maybe they will. Who cares? There are ways to counter stuff like this. Plan ahead, get one of those methods available. I mean it's not like someone fleeing via portal is any different to hiding away in a quarter/ship all the time.

That really depends if they give you a chance though, doesn't it?

Back in the day - before Discord, there was the still the whispered opinion that all Uders were griefers and lamers (entirely untrue but there you have it.) I expect that sort of thing 'All of XXX faction is lame' is just as, if not even more, prevelent now.

So there's an argument to be made that if people are forced into rp more, if escape is less easy - then they may discover the other 'side' isn't as bad as they think? It's an argument anyway. Than again - they can just respawn as well.

I'm probably sounding like I'm coming down heavily on the idea of the timer - and in truth I'm relitivly neutral about it. But I can't help but agree that when you don't have much trust in your fellow player, or you're merely trying to do the entirely 'In Character' thing of escaping asap, it can be hard to continue a narrative.

[Void]

Presumably "well, even if we disable this feature, they can always commit a bannable offense instead" is not an argument that you are advancing seriously.

The argument is that if Party A is interested in a specific type of interaction (conflict dialogue), and Party B is looking for a way to avoid said interaction, then Party B cannot be made to participate in said interaction through introduction of rules or restrictive mechanics. If they don't want to do it, they won't do it.

The right idea is to look for other people to interact with and see who is more receptive for desired interaction.

In the op's case introduction of extra cooldown mechanic can lead to a scenario where people that were fleeing will not stay to interact, but instead will come up with more ways to flee or more ways to avoid situations where they might have to flee. Meaning amount of opportunities for "conflict roleplay" will not increase.

PVP in this game is unfun for me, and in case my character runs into a hostile party that is likely to engage in combat, one of the most sane choices is to immediately abscond, unless there's a REALLY good reason to think the talking is possible and the risk is worth it.

A conflict roleplay without fight can still happen in neutral zones which have "no fight" restrictions. That's another angle worth pursuing. If you really want to try talking to someone you fought, you can try scheduling a meeting in one of those locations. Maybe they'll bite once their neck is no longer at risk.

[Curve]

Not liking PvP as an excuse for fleeing all hostile interactions kind of bums me out as an attitude towards the game. I am hard pressed to think of a situation where roleplaying that dislike of PvP as part of your character would not be preferable to just running away. Do people really feel like they have PvP forced on them when they are not in any way involved in the RP leading up to it, allied with other characters who are engaging with this kind of RP, or initiating the conflict themselves?

I would suggest trying,
*Puts hands in the air in a non-threatening way!* I don't want to fight! How can we solve this another way?
*Whips out a sack of gold,* Please take this for my life!
*Flops on the ground like a bytstander!* Help, someone help!
*Rubs clammy palms, sweat beads form his forehead, looks nervously around* I'm scared and don't want to die. Please.

Or even just going out on a limb and try to engage in the mechanical conflict. Maybe you will lose, maybe you will win. Who cares, really. But, you might find that it's not that big of a deal and you become a stronger roleplayer because of it.

Sometimes I think players want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to roleplay as epic heroes and villains who never lose and who always have the smart answer while not really backing that up with player on player conflict. I am always so completely fascinated and can not pile on enough praise for players who roleplay fear, hesitance, or any other attribute that is not traditionally looked at as positive.

[Zavandar]

When people feel like their options are "die now" and "die after being RP'd at for 5-10 minutes", I don't blame them for wanting to leave.

I also don't think them fleeing is even something that should be punished or looked down upon. Why would you, for example, sit there and let yourself be captured by people you're fairly certain will just torture and kill you anyway?

"To create a story," some people say. I'd counter and say being afflicted with a momentary bout of stupidity and suicidality is a strange story.

It's okay for antagonists to have to work for killing people.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

When people feel like their options are "die now" and "die after being RP'd at for 5-10 minutes", I don't blame them for wanting to leave.

I also don't think them fleeing is even something that should be punished or looked down upon. Why would you, for example, sit there and let yourself be captured by people you're fairly certain will just torture and kill you anyway?

This is a good point. Fleeing is part of taking death seriously.

[Zavandar]

Fleeing is part of taking death seriously.

100%.

[Void]

Not liking PvP as an excuse for fleeing all hostile interactions kind

That's not a nice thing to say.

Most characters have many good reason to flee from potential dangers, and have no obligation to try talking it out. Because the most reasonable option in many cases is to run immediately. Also, thinking for too long means you might lose means to run, because the other party may be able to lock the area and it takes a split second for them to do it. You only need to expeirence teleport lock once to learn to lense away at any sign of trouble.

*Puts hands in the air in a non-threatening way!* I don't want to fight! How can we solve this another way?
*Whips out a sack of gold,* Please take this for my life!
*Flops on the ground like a bytstander!* Help, someone help!
*Rubs clammy palms, sweat beads form his forehead, looks nervously around* I'm scared and don't want to die. Please.

This does not work in a huge number of cases.