Disguise culture

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Skibbles
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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Skibbles » Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:37 pm

Sincra wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:30 pm
Aside from the fact changing names throws a spanner in a few mechanical systems it is the above that makes me disagree on changing actual names to match a disguise name if used long term.
I'm just saying that if Bruce wore his Batman outfit to school, to his wedding, to all his social occasions, all his business ventures, and never told a single soul his real name or even hinted anything otherwise.... maybe Bruce just doesn't exist.

If someone is using multiple disguises, like in your example, then they're probably using it right. That's not what I'm talking about though.
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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Hazard » Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:02 am

Let's say I have a character called Victoria Floppysocks and she has -6 bluff, 8 int and 8 wis.
Victoria isn't allowed in town because she kicked a guard in the shin after they told her off for using the charity barrel as a restroom.
Victoria needs a disguise! But she has the dumb and lacks skill. She does her best and returns as "Victoria With a Moustache".

Rulebreak?

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by -XXX- » Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:55 am

Hazard wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:02 am
Let's say I have a character called Victoria Floppysocks and she has -6 bluff, 8 int and 8 wis.
Victoria isn't allowed in town because she kicked a guard in the shin after they told her off for using the charity barrel as a restroom.
Victoria needs a disguise! But she has the dumb and lacks skill. She does her best and returns as "Victoria With a Moustache".

Rulebreak?
Arelith Wiki wrote: Forbidden
Any situation where your character is not attempting to actually disguise.
Nicknames - 'John "Fury" Doe', "Big Mama"
Titles - 'Commander Richard', 'High Minister Crassius Vinegar'
Added Descriptions - 'Tarina Tal (Bloody)'

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:42 am

-XXX- wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:55 am
Hazard wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:02 am
Let's say I have a character called Victoria Floppysocks and she has -6 bluff, 8 int and 8 wis.
Victoria isn't allowed in town because she kicked a guard in the shin after they told her off for using the charity barrel as a restroom.
Victoria needs a disguise! But she has the dumb and lacks skill. She does her best and returns as "Victoria With a Moustache".

Rulebreak?
Arelith Wiki wrote: Forbidden
Any situation where your character is not attempting to actually disguise.
Nicknames - 'John "Fury" Doe', "Big Mama"
Titles - 'Commander Richard', 'High Minister Crassius Vinegar'
Added Descriptions - 'Tarina Tal (Bloody)'
While I technically agree that it falls under the rules, I feel the example might be a little tongue in cheek- after all, someone who comes back disguised as "Victoria with a moustache" and no actual disguise is basically graciously leaning into their character's flaws and offering you a blatant upper hand in the scene for the sake of RP.

Remember that outside of a few core rules around taboo subjects for the server's rating sake (and the odd outlier like Raid Rules), most such restrictions can be waived between two parties. I can't see how this would give anyone an advantage other than the person identifying the badly disguised Victoria - even if someone by some miracle couldn't pass the spot check, in the situation described, it sounds to me like the person is inviting anyone who wishes to call them out on the fact that they, in fact, didn't do anything other than go out and put on a moustache.

Picture a random Victoria. Now picture her with a moustache trying to hide from the guards. It's freakin' hilarious, and the only reason I'd bother a DM about it is to let them in on the joke, and maybe commend the other person's RP for following their character to such a disadvantageous situation- but YMMV.
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Re: Disguise culture

Post by a shrouded figure » Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:14 pm

+1, while yes this is Irongron’s world, we the players, bring it to life. Situationally I’m personally a fan of Victoria with a Mustache, for the scene. Now if Victoria never removed this disguise- that’s what the rule is for.

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by -XXX- » Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:53 pm

I merely pointed at a rather clear DM ruling regarding the matter at hand after a question has been presented.

The correct way to do it would be disguising the character as "Vicky" while editing the character's description and periodically emoting that they were wearing a fake moustache.

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Amateur Hour » Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:16 pm

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:42 am
-XXX- wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:55 am
Hazard wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:02 am
Let's say I have a character called Victoria Floppysocks and she has -6 bluff, 8 int and 8 wis.
Victoria isn't allowed in town because she kicked a guard in the shin after they told her off for using the charity barrel as a restroom.
Victoria needs a disguise! But she has the dumb and lacks skill. She does her best and returns as "Victoria With a Moustache".

Rulebreak?
Arelith Wiki wrote: Forbidden
Any situation where your character is not attempting to actually disguise.
Nicknames - 'John "Fury" Doe', "Big Mama"
Titles - 'Commander Richard', 'High Minister Crassius Vinegar'
Added Descriptions - 'Tarina Tal (Bloody)'
While I technically agree that it falls under the rules, I feel the example might be a little tongue in cheek- after all, someone who comes back disguised as "Victoria with a moustache" and no actual disguise is basically graciously leaning into their character's flaws and offering you a blatant upper hand in the scene for the sake of RP.

Remember that outside of a few core rules around taboo subjects for the server's rating sake (and the odd outlier like Raid Rules), most such restrictions can be waived between two parties. I can't see how this would give anyone an advantage other than the person identifying the badly disguised Victoria - even if someone by some miracle couldn't pass the spot check, in the situation described, it sounds to me like the person is inviting anyone who wishes to call them out on the fact that they, in fact, didn't do anything other than go out and put on a moustache.

Picture a random Victoria. Now picture her with a moustache trying to hide from the guards. It's freakin' hilarious, and the only reason I'd bother a DM about it is to let them in on the joke, and maybe commend the other person's RP for following their character to such a disadvantageous situation- but YMMV.
I feel like a way to get around this while still staying within the rules is to have Victoria Floppysocks disguise to "Fictoria Vloppysocks".

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Tabby » Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:37 am

Being a character that uses disguises now and then with semi high Bluff, i used several different outfits, with names attached, first and lastname, but i also har the more Generic names "Hawk'in Scout" etc. More or less, when you drastically change your outfit (hood + fully clothes) i would say you are a New Persona and then you can disguise. Even if you have a low bluff.

What i dislike and agree with, is the "Your disguise is broken" text.
Og should be more like, "Prying Eyes rest on you" no matter if it is broken or not" perhaps this text should ONLY appear when you have a high Bluff, as a "sixth sense" and none with low bluff (meaning you never know if someone noticed you)
What also need to stop is the Tells to a disguise person, as people KNOW it will reveal their username (og you reply a tell it will), and hence can identify the Disguised person. This is just bad behaviour from other players.

Being disguised for a longer period of time i see no problems with, but if its to break mechanical, then its just poor player conduct.
Same with the "someone revealed me, insta True Sight" that is clearly bad OOC playing.

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by -XXX- » Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:39 am

Without the "your disguise was broken" / "your disguise held under scrutiny" lines there'd have been no way to tell whether the disguise was legitimately broken or if a metagaming incident report should be filed.

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Tabby » Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:49 am

-XXX- wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:39 am
Without the "your disguise was broken" / "your disguise held under scrutiny" lines there'd have been no way to tell whether the disguise was legitimately broken or if a metagaming incident report should be filed.
Out of curiorisity how can it be metagaming? If a player break it, then its fair and Square, if he dont how can he know who the real character is?

I dont abused the game, so for me its more "tempting" to Meta, when a OOC message tell me that i have been discovered?

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:15 pm

Tabby wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:49 am
-XXX- wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:39 am
Without the "your disguise was broken" / "your disguise held under scrutiny" lines there'd have been no way to tell whether the disguise was legitimately broken or if a metagaming incident report should be filed.
Out of curiorisity how can it be metagaming? If a player break it, then its fair and Square, if he dont how can he know who the real character is?

I dont abused the game, so for me its more "tempting" to Meta, when a OOC message tell me that i have been discovered?
Leaving aside issues of them somehow knowing who you are without breaking your disguise (maybe they spotted your name change on the list, maybe someone told them in tells, IDK.) there's other issues where disguise comes into play.

If someone breaks your disguise, but don't know who your character is - they stil recognise you as disguised.

If someone doesn't break your disguise then... (though I'll add this is dependent on circumstances(1)) they shouldn't really be rping susspicion your way, as far as they're concerned you ARE a Hawkin

For example you're playing a new disguise, - "Elly." You're just wandering through Bendir, checking shops, but not wanting to be recognised for your real self - Sasha Silverscales!

You get no message that your disguise is broken. You know its held true all the time. Yet some of the Hawkin are following you, susspicious. - and then confront you, spending time to try and talk to you, questining you carefully. This is likely metagaming. They have no reason to susspect you as far as you know. So you can report that.

In the same situaitonk, as you're passing the Hawkin, you get the message 'your disguise has been breached!' - Even if these Hawkin don't know who your character /is/. they can tell that your character is disguised in some way, and so they're within their rights to act susspcious and such.

That's just one example the message is useful for disguisers.


(1) - If you're going to a Myon Party dressed in full black, with a skull mask, with the diguise name 'Xanxor Elfslaughterer' then obviously I'd expect people to rp some susspicion your way. Context and such does matter.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Tabby » Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:05 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:15 pm

If someone breaks your disguise, but don't know who your character is - they stil recognise you as disguised.

If someone doesn't break your disguise then... (though I'll add this is dependent on circumstances(1)) they shouldn't really be rping susspicion your way, as far as they're concerned you ARE a Hawkin
An Idea could be, remove the " ", that absolutely makes everyone alert on someone being disguised? Place a text under [example box]
Where it will be revealed if you blew the disguise, i know its there now, but perhaps on top, then one can scroll down to See more detail.
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:15 pm
For example you're playing a new disguise, - "Elly." You're just wandering through Bendir, checking shops, but not wanting to be recognised for your real self - Sasha Silverscales!

You get no message that your disguise is broken. You know its held true all the time. Yet some of the Hawkin are following you, susspicious. - and then confront you, spending time to try and talk to you, questining you carefully. This is likely metagaming. They have no reason to susspect you as far as you know. So you can report that.

In the same situaitonk, as you're passing the Hawkin, you get the message 'your disguise has been breached!' - Even if these Hawkin don't know who your character /is/. they can tell that your character is disguised in some way, and so they're within their rights to act susspcious and such.

That's just one example the message is useful for disguisers.


(1) - If you're going to a Myon Party dressed in full black, with a skull mask, with the diguise name 'Xanxor Elfslaughterer' then obviously I'd expect people to rp some susspicion your way. Context and such does matter.
:) I dont know :) perhaps the system is good enough as it is.
Just.. being sneaking around in the Underdark disguised, you feel double secure, when no message pops up, and suddenly, when just the "failed to break your disguise" happend, i should be ignoring this, and Hope others ignorer the " ", that is between my name?

For be i feel thats alot of Alarms giving OOC to people.
With no "" and no OOC messages, who would know who is suspicious, disguised. Making it abit more natural.

Anyways, im fine with the current state, as i dont "exploit" the mechanic, but if its an issue? Then here my little suggestion :) :)

Dormant Character: Tabitha Fuzzypaw - Shelved, searching all corners for treasures and secrets.
Misty Scrollsinger - Still searching answers, but is now elsewhere

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Void » Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:41 pm

Tabby wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:49 am
-XXX- wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:39 am
Without the "your disguise was broken" / "your disguise held under scrutiny" lines there'd have been no way to tell whether the disguise was legitimately broken or if a metagaming incident report should be filed.
Out of curiorisity how can it be metagaming? If a player break it, then its fair and Square, if he dont how can he know who the real character is?

I dont abused the game, so for me its more "tempting" to Meta, when a OOC message tell me that i have been discovered?
Another player says in a tell/on discord/through forum pms that "Bob" is actually Alice.
Then you see "Bob" and say "hey, I know you're Alice!" without breaking their disguise. That's metagaming.

The line in the log lets the player know that somebody knows who they are. Unfortunately it also lets them know that somebody is examining them. Which is, like you said, VERY tempting to act upon, especially if you're sneaking. Because seeing this message while you're sneaking means you've been spotted.
Tabby wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:05 pm
An Idea could be, remove the " ", that absolutely makes everyone alert on someone being disguised? Place a text under [example box]
Where it will be revealed if you blew the disguise, i know its there now, but perhaps on top, then one can scroll down to See more detail.
That coudl be interesting. I'm unsure if this can be implemented in the game however.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by ltlukoziuz » Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:02 pm

Tabby wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:05 pm
An Idea could be, remove the " ", that absolutely makes everyone alert on someone being disguised? Place a text under [example box]
Where it will be revealed if you blew the disguise, i know its there now, but perhaps on top, then one can scroll down to See more detail.
Sadly, that is not possible (and confirmed by staff that they can't do anything going that direction) because if you remove any signifier in the name, then there's nothing stopping from impersonating the staff (say, send someone a tell suggesting something erroneous).


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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Void » Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:46 pm

ltlukoziuz wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:02 pm
Tabby wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:05 pm
An Idea could be, remove the " ", that absolutely makes everyone alert on someone being disguised? Place a text under [example box]
Where it will be revealed if you blew the disguise, i know its there now, but perhaps on top, then one can scroll down to See more detail.
Sadly, that is not possible (and confirmed by staff that they can't do anything going that direction) because if you remove any signifier in the name, then there's nothing stopping from impersonating the staff (say, send someone a tell suggesting something erroneous).
It could be probably done in reverse, however. Which means adding quotes to everybody who is not a staff/dm.

Another option is marking staff names with characters that normal players are not allowed to use in names or disguises. For example, [DM Snowcat], *DM Snowcat*, etc. That would mean modifying disguise script so it rejects names with special characters in them. (Thinking about it, this is probably the easiest option)
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Tabby » Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:49 am

Void wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:46 pm
ltlukoziuz wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:02 pm
Tabby wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:05 pm
An Idea could be, remove the " ", that absolutely makes everyone alert on someone being disguised? Place a text under [example box]
Where it will be revealed if you blew the disguise, i know its there now, but perhaps on top, then one can scroll down to See more detail.
Sadly, that is not possible (and confirmed by staff that they can't do anything going that direction) because if you remove any signifier in the name, then there's nothing stopping from impersonating the staff (say, send someone a tell suggesting something erroneous).
It could be probably done in reverse, however. Which means adding quotes to everybody who is not a staff/dm.

Another option is marking staff names with characters that normal players are not allowed to use in names or disguises. For example, [DM Snowcat], *DM Snowcat*, etc. That would mean modifying disguise script so it rejects names with special characters in them. (Thinking about it, this is probably the easiest option)
Ahh yes! Thats an idea, Yeah im aware i dont have the feeling of how easy or hard its to implicate.
Hej fact that someone would impersonate a DM, is beyond my belief.. But surely that can be checked and severely punished?

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Misty Scrollsinger - Still searching answers, but is now elsewhere

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Duchess Says » Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:54 am

I think it's not just staff... one could cause a lot of trouble if they could impersonate another player and without quotes to let us know it's a disguise things could get real messy and difficult to report.

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Tabby » Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:03 am

Duchess Says wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:54 am
I think it's not just staff... one could cause a lot of trouble if they could impersonate another player and without quotes to let us know it's a disguise things could get real messy and difficult to report.
Hmm.. Yeah i can see that.. uff.. that could be bad.. :/

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Void » Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:44 am

Duchess Says wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:54 am
I think it's not just staff... one could cause a lot of trouble if they could impersonate another player and without quotes to let us know it's a disguise things could get real messy and difficult to report.
Isn't being able to impersonate another character one of the reasons to have disguises?

You already can do that with disguised characters, by the way. If someone disguises as "Bob", then another character could also disguise as "Bob" and their names will be indistinguishable from each other. Likewise somebody mentioned "Sydney Harrow" being "constant disguise" and you WOULD be able to make another "Sydney Harrow".

You'll still be able to tell the fake name through OOC means, by the way. It would require attempting to send a tell to a character by clicking portrait in chat log.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Duchess Says » Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:04 am

Right now I can disguise as "Tony Harrison" but everyone will know I'm disguising as "Tony Harrison" and I'm not the real player and character. So ideally they'll play along and since we all know it's pretend I can't do too much damage to that player and character's name.

If I could disguise as Tony Harrison without quotes and other players would need 80 spot to know I'm in not the real deal? There's an awful lot of damage you could do to burn the real Tony Harrison's friendships and reputation to the point of making that character unplayable. Since they don't know it's a disguise it might not even be reported, assuming any rules are even broken besides "be nice". It would be a huge mess and the player would be frustrated and possibly unable to undo the damage their imposter caused. Maybe you don't see it but I can come up with a dozen ways I could wreck another character like this and I'm not even all +that+ malevolent.

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Aren » Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:34 am

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:15 pm
Tabby wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:49 am
-XXX- wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:39 am
Without the "your disguise was broken" / "your disguise held under scrutiny" lines there'd have been no way to tell whether the disguise was legitimately broken or if a metagaming incident report should be filed.
Out of curiorisity how can it be metagaming? If a player break it, then its fair and Square, if he dont how can he know who the real character is?

I dont abused the game, so for me its more "tempting" to Meta, when a OOC message tell me that i have been discovered?
Leaving aside issues of them somehow knowing who you are without breaking your disguise (maybe they spotted your name change on the list, maybe someone told them in tells, IDK.) there's other issues where disguise comes into play.

If someone breaks your disguise, but don't know who your character is - they stil recognise you as disguised.

If someone doesn't break your disguise then... (though I'll add this is dependent on circumstances(1)) they shouldn't really be rping susspicion your way, as far as they're concerned you ARE a Hawkin

For example you're playing a new disguise, - "Elly." You're just wandering through Bendir, checking shops, but not wanting to be recognised for your real self - Sasha Silverscales!

You get no message that your disguise is broken. You know its held true all the time. Yet some of the Hawkin are following you, susspicious. - and then confront you, spending time to try and talk to you, questining you carefully. This is likely metagaming. They have no reason to susspect you as far as you know. So you can report that.

In the same situaitonk, as you're passing the Hawkin, you get the message 'your disguise has been breached!' - Even if these Hawkin don't know who your character /is/. they can tell that your character is disguised in some way, and so they're within their rights to act susspcious and such.

That's just one example the message is useful for disguisers.


(1) - If you're going to a Myon Party dressed in full black, with a skull mask, with the diguise name 'Xanxor Elfslaughterer' then obviously I'd expect people to rp some susspicion your way. Context and such does matter.
It would be nice to have this information announced on Discord, as not everyone reads the forums.

I have recently played a character with high bluff. My disguise was never been broken, yet I have experienced players buffing/warding up before walking up to my character, who's disguised inconspicuously and not doing anything untoward, demanding to know who I am and to take off my "hood".
What's interesting is, that the players when confronted with this, will say that they didn't anything wrong and even that they asked several other players who agree that they didn't do anything wrong.
Which means that there is a discrepancy between the players and the teams view on disguise rules.

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by chris a gogo » Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:31 am

Well if your wearing the same clothing and holding the same glow stick then they are allowed to know it's you.
Also "take your hood off" removes covered not disguise which is fairly common practice due to how annoying the covered system is for anyone without 40 spot.

Lastly WYSIWYG so if your disguised as skulking, shadowy, and other generic names not as a person it's fair for guards to stop you and demand to know what your up to, and who you are.

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:20 pm

As I recall wearing a disguise does not block scrying. It's always been the case that someone can scry on you, with your name, even if you're in disguise. I /think/ now its also the case that people can scry on you using your disguised name.

I think if they try and scry on you using your disguise, but you arn't IN that disguise at present, then it wouldn't work. So there's that. But for that to be true you'd have to be OUT of your disguise and, ergo, not always disguised.

Constant disguising does make exile/pariahship harder, in theory. But then again a) If you've a high enough bluff then you can get around exile anyway and b) in serious cases, settlments can apply to us to allow them to use a Severed Head instead, rather than a name. (We only tend to give permission for this in extreme situations, where the person is literlaly never giving their name.)

The only other benefit to Constant Disguises is possibly finding it hard to evict someone/find out where they live. The latter is fine. If someone is abusing a Constant Disguise to ensure that they are never ever ever evicted, and this is a problem - then again the PC authoraties can contact us. I can't recall a time when we've ever had this though.

So really constant disguising isn't that powerful. Useful in some situations sure- but not that much.

Because I think it was touched on earlier - there have been times when someone, having used the same disguise for long enough (we're talking RL months here) has requested from us a full name change to that disguise. It's one of the very few situations when we will allow such. But the disguise has to have been pretty much constant, well known, and have gone on for - as said- a long, long time.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Disguise culture

Post by Void » Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:32 pm

Duchess Says wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:04 am
If I could disguise as Tony Harrison without quotes and other players would need 80 spot to know I'm in not the real deal? There's an awful lot of damage you could do to burn the real Tony Harrison's friendships and reputation to the point of making that character unplayable.
Again, isn't that the point of the disguise system? You can already do that to someone who is disguised all the time.

The way to OOCly check if the player is the real one would still be there, by the way. Clicking somebody's portrait in chat window starts a tell, and that on uses playername. However, if the character is disguised it uses disguise name. So you could still detect a faker with a click, if they said anything.

The point is, quotes are OOC information and it bleeds into people's decisions. As mentioned in this thread - people seeing quoted name will try to examine the character with quoted name. By doing that they technically metagame.

In practice, for example, if you try to waltz into Andunor Hub as a surfacer and do this properly - by using disguise and cover, your character will draw attention and will be investigated. However, if you remove hood and use real name, people will be far less likely to care.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

ltlukoziuz
Posts: 297
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:18 pm

Re: Disguise culture

Post by ltlukoziuz » Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:09 pm

Void wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:32 pm
Again, isn't that the point of the disguise system? You can already do that to someone who is disguised all the time.

The way to OOCly check if the player is the real one would still be there, by the way. Clicking somebody's portrait in chat window starts a tell, and that on uses playername. However, if the character is disguised it uses disguise name. So you could still detect a faker with a click, if they said anything.
As far as I remember, the real harm is in OOC impersonation. The player name is not constant and is not valid way to ascertain real person either - that can be very easily faked to look just like the person's name, but just with slightest typo/missing character (like say, impersonating Oldman as 0ldman). Some people in fact change their player name with every new character they play (you probably have seen that yourself what with player name being "Character Name" or "Character Name's Player"), disassociating characters from "person", muddling that even more. This is just an infinite rabbithole that can go deeper and deeper and deeper.


Currently playing: Sabina Paultier

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